danielmaxin

Quote Bowling comes to mind, but there are other things that are just as much fun.*** like reading ironic bulshit remarks on this thread ( with few exceptions). Come to think of it, it may be healthier to skydive

can't leave the thread die it seems...

Didn't want to continue this post any further but some of the last replies really answered my question after all . I did not realize that the DZ is after all liable as far as federal regulations in aviation are concerned. I am going to repeat soemthing and maybe I will be understood. It is not about me wanting to sue. If I die I couldn't care less and If am injured I will use medical insurance that doesn't exclude skydiving. What I disliked about the waiver is the overall message. It would sound different to a new student if the message was somehting like:" we are required to provide a plane with current maintanance , a licensed pilot, etc etc BUT any shit can still happen" That is different than saying " Whatever hapens we don;t care" And again, I know they DO care. An instructor with thousands and thousands of jumps probably did not take safety issues lightly. It's just the message in that fucking waiver that sounds bad to me overall although I agree with 90% of its content. And please do not bother to tell me that I should or should not skydive . This is a personal decision and if I do it means that I signed the waiver. So the fear that I am going to look for someone to sue is ridiculous. Let the DZ's without the waiver fear me if they wish:) To conclude, my point was that eventhough there are 1000,s of reasons that can happen that lead to injury or death there are some things that can and must be done to prevent and reduce the risks and some of them are just mentioned before: licensed pilots, maintained planes, authorised repairs, repacks of reserves don on time etc...these can be done AND ENFORCED so I don;t see a problem to assume liability here...Maybe the packing example was wrong... But what can you say about the tandem master who exited the plane with attached only at two points with the student?...there is a video with that, can't remember the name though. That kind of shit is avoidable to say the least. And another thing...When I mentioned the poor image of the sport I meant the fact that people out of this sport , most of them, see us suicidal freaks. And that is why it is so hard to find medical or accident insurance that do not exclude skydiviong...Wouldn't you like to change this impression? Wouldn't you like to pay less for life insurance and other stuff like that? The fact that you can't it means maybe that the image of the sport is not ideal. Getting drunk behind the wheels might be much more dangerous than skydiving but outside people do not see that .And maybe the way skydiving is presented to new comers has to do with this image. You like it that way? Fine! I don't! But that doesn't mean I don;t like to skydive! And to those who said they won;t skydive with me: you didn't get it: I am obssesed with safety issues means that will follow carefully and alawys the strictest safety guidelines. It's not about sueing. It's about doing something cool and being safe in the same time. If you don't like that then I am the one affraid to jump with you that's it for this post from me! As soon as I write my version of the waiver I'll let ya know

Quote please please please, if I ever meet you let me know all this. I don't want to teach you anything or give you any advice or direction to help save yourself. just for the sole reason that if you do get hurt, I don't want to be liable, or have to go to court to prove that I am not. If I jump it means that I signed the waiver hence it means that I will not sue anybody. However since you gave me that answer, honestly I will be afraid to be taught by you. So I guess that's a load off for you if that is what you wanted.

QuoteWelcome to skydiving. *** Thank you! I sure felt welcomed :) Funny thing I delayed my response because I just had my second tandem today. It was great. I do not mind people saying whatever they want. I was upset by the fact that while I wanted some "techincal" answers , what I got was a "bonfire" kind f reply. But some answered my questions and thanks for that

I just want to point out something very clearly: Since I do sign that waiver it means I ACCEPT whatever is written there....That doesn't mean though that I have to keep my mouth shut and not express a different view about something.In a civilized debate maybe. I just wanted some opinions about the waiver and its content and not about my personal decision to skydive. And the remark that I should take up golf or bowlling is cheap. This post turned out to be a mistake and I will rely on face to face talks about this subject later on.

Probably I did not make myself understood. I am not looking to sue anyone. I do not put a price on physical pain and also I am aware of the risks. The problem is when you go in a comercial airliner you indeed take a chance that the plane is checked and in good running condition but you are not handed however a piece of paper from the company that says:" We are not liable even if WE WERE negligent and did not check the plane" And this statement like " take it as is or leave it" works up to a point. How am I supposed to choose then as a newbie? Based on what? The advice of whom? There must be minimal standards and regulations. The plane must be maintained , the packer must be trained and examined etc etc... Again I am NOT saying that these things are not done. They are otherwisw I would not jump. BUT: if by some crazy reasons they are not performed there is no penalty. All we have is pure trust I I doubt that you who read my message would ride a car with me if I don't have insurance. So in the end I will give skydiving a try but a still think that the poor image of this sport can be improved by changing a little bit the message in that waiver.

Right now before starting AFF program and not knowing enough about this sport I still do not agree entirely with the waiver policy that is practiced at most dropzones( not all of them): the zero liability policy where you give up your rights to sue the DZ for any reasons. Now it is very clear to me that there is inherent risk that must be accepted in order to jump. However if , say, there is a packing error that caused the trouble( not necessarily a fatal trouble) why shouldn't the packer be liable? Human error is understable but that applies to the surgeon that cuts you open also. He performs much more complicated tasks than the packer yet he is liable and we all know what malpraxis means. Of course accepting the liability might mean extra indsurance costs for the packer that are passed to the jumpers but I think it is necessary. I am overconcerned about safety issues and to me that kind of waiver sends the wrong message because, to get back to my example, when I hire a packer I have only the faith in his abilities at my disposal and nothing else. A limited liability for the service performed is necessary everywhere in any industry.

Thanks again for the replys. I guess in reality I do not have a problem with accepting the risks. Every time you step out the door you accept that you might die in a car crash yet you are more comfortable with that because you do things that you are very familiar with and you have confidence that you can deal with the problems. Throwing yourself out of the airplane is very very new to me and that is what makes me fear the fear so to speak. I mean no matter the excitement the only thing I had in mind looking down just before exitting was :" whatta hell am I going to do?". And it took me a second to accept that I was not in the plane anymore

Yes I forgot about this and it does answer some of my concerns. Which reminds me to ask to other questions I have: 1. How high can an usual Otter fly? I hear about jumps from between 13000-15000 feet. Why not jump from the highest possible altitude? What is the the highest you can jump from without oxygen? 2. What is the actual purpose of a LALO jump? If all you want to enjoy is the canopy ride who stops you to jump from 13000 feet, open the parachute there and enjoy an even longer canopy ride with the advantage of having some altitude for mistakes/malfunctios etc...

Yes that is true, however, one can start practicing on less crowded streets before going on a highway. With skydiving it's the same gravity force for all. You can't say "I'm gonna let myself fall slower because I am a novice and I need more time to react" trust me I am as humble as it gets. In fact, the only doubt I have is that although I enjoyed my tandem a lot I do not believe that this sport is worth dying for. I do not mean to say that skydivers are suicidal quite the contrary but I do believe that some will consider the sport rewarding enough to worth risking your life. And for me it is not the case. AS much as I like flying in the sky there are a heck of a lot other things that I want to do with my life besides skydiving. So I doubt sometime that my level of acceptance of risk is suited for this sport. Most likely though I will make my decision whether to continue or not after my first AFF levels. Till then it's just theory. Thanks for all your replys

Hi, After my first tandem last summer I decided to start my AFF program soon. I am prefectly aware that one must accept the risk factor in order to enjoy almost any sport however there is only one problem related to skydiving that makes me fear too much about possible malfunctions. Namely, how much skill is needed in order to avoid/deal with the common malfunctions? What I mean is I would be more confident if I knew that anybody can execute in time and correctly all emergency procedures. For what I see this sport does not give any room to learn from mistakes. That's why there is no comfort to me in the fact that ,you are more likely to die from a car crash because going slow first one can learn to be a good driver from small mistakes In skydiving however there are only 20ish seconds to save your ass and I am affraid that should something wrong occur my lack of experience will prevent me to react correctly in an emergency. Bottom line is, should something bad happen during my jumps, I don't want that to be due to some avoidable mistakes. Now how do you learn to avoid that given the fact that you can't afford to intentionally simulate a malfunction up in the air just to practice your reactions?