Mandatory AAD's 2 (was: Franklin County fatality)

[grimmie 173]

katzas

Oh? Seen the vid of a freefall photographer (pro) who got saved by his buddies? He was out like a light and unresponsive. Don't know if he had an AAD--his friends performed that function before an AAD would have fired. Novice? Don't think so.

Thanks for making my point legit.

[ChuckMartin 0]

It is a cost-benefit analysis, you're right. I just did the math and it cost me $0.13 per jump for my Vigil and now that I have a M2 in one of my rigs (I'm a dealer for them so my cost is less) the same jump numbers would have came out to be $0.10 per jump to have an AAD in my rigs. If a 10-15 cents a jump is to much to pay I want to know what IS worth the money.

USPA says the average membership over the last 3 years has 34,215. I know some members have more then one rig but just as many members don't have a rig so it works out in the end.

A new Vigil AAD with a 20 year life span is $1300.00

To buy every USPA member a brand new Vigil 2+ would cost $44,479,500.

That comes out to $2,223,975 per year of service for all 34,000+ members.

Vigil alone has AT LEAST 186 saves in the last 11 years they have been selling AAD's. Looks like about 3/4 of them (140) are in the US so lets say 126 of them are USPA members. (about 90% of DZ's in the US are USPA, so 126)

That is $24,463,725 worth of service life that would have been used up in those 11 years.

So the average about of money spent per life saved is about $194,156.54. If you think your life is worth less then that, don't buy an AAD. I personally think my life is worth more then my house.

I know that the math and numbers can be picked apart all day but lets say the price per save is 5X as much as I came up with. That is still less then a million dollars a save.

What is your life worth???

[skypuppy 1]

ChuckMartin

It is a cost-benefit analysis, you're right. I just did the math and it cost me $0.13 per jump for my Vigil and now that I have a M2 in one of my rigs (I'm a dealer for them so my cost is less) the same jump numbers would have came out to be $0.10 per jump to have an AAD in my rigs. If a 10-15 cents a jump is to much to pay I want to know what IS worth the money.

USPA says the average membership over the last 3 years has 34,215. I know some members have more then one rig but just as many members don't have a rig so it works out in the end.

A new Vigil AAD with a 20 year life span is $1300.00

To buy every USPA member a brand new Vigil 2+ would cost $44,479,500.

That comes out to $2,223,975 per year of service for all 34,000+ members.

Vigil alone has AT LEAST 186 saves in the last 11 years they have been selling AAD's. Looks like about 3/4 of them (140) are in the US so lets say 126 of them are USPA members. (about 90% of DZ's in the US are USPA, so 126)

That is $24,463,725 worth of service life that would have been used up in those 11 years.

So the average about of money spent per life saved is about $194,156.54. If you think your life is worth less then that, don't buy an AAD. I personally think my life is worth more then my house.

I know that the math and numbers can be picked apart all day but lets say the price per save is 5X as much as I came up with. That is still less then a million dollars a save.

What is your life worth???

wht is the chance I'll need it?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[GoneCodFishing 23]

ChuckMartin

It is a cost-benefit analysis, you're right. I just did the math and it cost me $0.13 per jump for my Vigil and now that I have a M2 in one of my rigs (I'm a dealer for them so my cost is less) the same jump numbers would have came out to be $0.10 per jump to have an AAD in my rigs. If a 10-15 cents a jump is to much to pay I want to know what IS worth the money.

That's nice. So can you send me a unit in the post? I'll be generous and pay you 20c for every jump i do. Ok if i pay you at the end of every month or would you rather i pay you weekly for the jumps i do?

[c_dog 1]

ChuckMartin

So the average about of money spent per life saved is about $194,156.54. If you think your life is worth less then that, don't buy an AAD. I personally think my life is worth more then my house.

In So Cal, $195K won't buy you a house. You CAN get a pretty sweet condo in the ghetto, though.

[cs_troyk 0]

katzas

*However, given the nature of the high performance canopies that the swoopers use and their tendency to have more serious malfunctions at opening--an AAD would be a useful backup for them as well.

No - you're not getting it. High-performance canopy landings are not compatible with AAD's that are currently on the market.

When doing aggressive 450's and higher (and, at higher altitude DZ's, even 270's), there is no way for the AAD to distinguish the canopy maneuver from a cutaway+no reserve pull situation. With these types of landings, it is far more dangerous to have a turned-on AAD in your rig. We have lost at least one person, and had a number of close calls. If you're swooping aggressively and have your AAD turned on, it's not a matter of "if", but "when".

[ChuckMartin 0]

wht is the chance I'll need it?

I don't know if you really want I could do the statistical math on it for you but i'll need some information from you. I'v seen people saved by them I know people that would probably be here today if they did have one. I am sure that everybody that ever made the decision not to jump one and went in said "What is the chance i'll need it?" too.

Odds are you will never need it but for a few cents a jump I think it is the cheapest insurance policy I have ever bought. About a month ago I was on a load with a guy that would not be here if he didn't have an AAD. I bet he thinks they are a good idea.

It's a free country and nobody (except for DZO's) can make you use one. If you don't want to don't. I just don't see why 99% of people that don't use one make the choice not to.

[ChuckMartin 0]

GoneCodFishing

***It is a cost-benefit analysis, you're right. I just did the math and it cost me $0.13 per jump for my Vigil and now that I have a M2 in one of my rigs (I'm a dealer for them so my cost is less) the same jump numbers would have came out to be $0.10 per jump to have an AAD in my rigs. If a 10-15 cents a jump is to much to pay I want to know what IS worth the money.

That's nice. So can you send me a unit in the post? I'll be generous and pay you 20c for every jump i do. Ok if i pay you at the end of every month or would you rather i pay you weekly for the jumps i do?

Deal you just have to pre pay for the first 4,500 jumps. Then $0.20 a jump paid at the end of the month.

[grue 1]

katzas

Well, in fact, it is how you can pay for them. Use a credit card--buy one--pay it off in a year--whatever. Yes, you pay interest--but if it saved your ass that's a small price to pay.

That's great if:

1. You want a credit card
2. You can even GET a credit card.

Despite living in Australia for 8 years I'm still a filthy second rate human (read as: immigrant) who can't get a credit card. It's somewhat irrelevant since I don't actually want one anyway, but just pointing out that not everyone has that simple option.

cavete terrae.

[Thijs 0]

faulknerwn

And most CRWdogs

What is the reason for this? While a swooper can easily cross the activation speed, this shouldn't happen on a CRW jump.

If you are below the activation altitude, and you are going down faster than the activation speed, it seems to me that something must be terribly wrong (but on a swoop everything will most likely be fine).
If you are going down that fast, at that low altitude, what is the downside/danger of an AAD fire?

[ChuckMartin 0]

The idea with CRW guys is they open high so if something does go wrong they have way more time to deal with it. Also the chance of them being knocked out with nothing out is a lot less then other disciplines. Having one doesn't hurt just most people feel there is less of a need for one.

Are you asking what is the danger of a AAD fire on a swoop? Or just the danger of an AAD fire with nothing out?

[Thijs 0]

ChuckMartin

Are you asking what is the danger of a AAD fire on a swoop? Or just the danger of an AAD fire with nothing out?

No, I understand why swoopers sometimes prefer not to jump with AAD, I was just wondering what the reasons would be for CRW people.

[billvon 2,400]

> Also the chance of them being knocked out with nothing out is a lot less then
>other disciplines.

Hmm. Regularly opening 20 feet from someone would seem to make it more, rather than less, likely to be "knocked out."

[gowlerk 1,914]

Thijs

***And most CRWdogs

What is the reason for this? While a swooper can easily cross the activation speed, this shouldn't happen on a CRW jump.

If you are below the activation altitude, and you are going down faster than the activation speed, it seems to me that something must be terribly wrong (but on a swoop everything will most likely be fine).
If you are going down that fast, at that low altitude, what is the downside/danger of an AAD fire?


You are over thinking this. The main reason not to bother with an AAD on a CRW rig has nothing to do with safety, it is mostly because there is a very slim chance that you will need a device designed for freefall saves when you are not doing freefall. So most people decide to save some money.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[WickedWingsuits 0]

We rent them for $65 a month but have surprisingly little interest in the service so I don't think cost is what stops most people. They just prioritize the money elsewhere, some on jumps and some in the bar.

We started it purely because a packer friend couldn't afford to buy one up front.

Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com

[skypuppy 1]

It is a cost-benefit analysis, you're right. I just did the math and it cost me $0.13 per jump for my Vigil and now that I have a M2 in one of my rigs (I'm a dealer for them so my cost is less) the same jump numbers would have came out to be $0.10 per jump to have an AAD in my rigs. If a 10-15 cents a jump is to much to pay I want to know what IS worth the money.

I keep trying to do this math - and I keep coming up with, in order to get the 1300 cost of a vigil down to 10 cents/jump, I'd have to do at least 10 THOUSAND jumps on that unit. And if I have two rigs, I'd have to do 10 THOUSAND ON EACH RIG.

Or have I misdone the math?>

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[GoneCodFishing 23]

ChuckMartin

Deal you just have to pre pay for the first 4,500 jumps. Then $0.20 a jump paid at the end of the month.

Bargain! Unfortunately i'm a bit tied up now applying your business model proactively and am about to order a top end Ferrari. If i do 50,000 miles a year for 10 years i'll only be paying 40c a mile. Not bad for a Ferrari! I just hope my bank manager understands my logic is right

[ChuckMartin 0]

skypuppy

It is a cost-benefit analysis, you're right. I just did the math and it cost me $0.13 per jump for my Vigil and now that I have a M2 in one of my rigs (I'm a dealer for them so my cost is less) the same jump numbers would have came out to be $0.10 per jump to have an AAD in my rigs. If a 10-15 cents a jump is to much to pay I want to know what IS worth the money.

I keep trying to do this math - and I keep coming up with, in order to get the 1300 cost of a vigil down to 10 cents/jump, I'd have to do at least 10 THOUSAND jumps on that unit. And if I have two rigs, I'd have to do 10 THOUSAND ON EACH RIG.

Or have I misdone the math?>

Your math is right. 10,000 jumps or 500 a year for the life of the product.

Or $65 a year, $5.41 a month, $1.35 a week, $.019 a day.

When you look at how much they really cost over its life I still don't get why anybody that is not a world class swooper only doing hop and pops would not jump with one.

Yeah yeah I get it. You have to pay for it all at once and skydiving costs a lot of money and blah blah blah. If you are jumping a rig from the 1960's and you say money is an issue ok. But if you have all brand new gear or even gear that is not falling apart that is not a good reason. You want to save $1300 and not buy an AAD? Why not save another $1300 and buy used? Or another $1300 off that and get something old? Or another $1300 and get something super old. I have a 1988 rig I use to get reserve pack numbers for my rigger ticket i'll sell it for $400 when i'm done. PD 210 and a 26 year old reserve. How about I take out the main and build you one in my garage? I'll even take off $100.

[mcordell 2]

I jump without an AAD and I can't afford one. I have two rigs. One is a vector built in 1986 with a quantum Joule and a raven I from the same year. One is a rig I ordered all brand new with a wings rig, a sabre 2 main, and a raven I reserve. Just because I have a newer rig doesn't mean I have 1300 to drop on an AAD. I would like to have one. Hell I'd like to have 2! I had one when I ordered my new rig and bought one at the same time but I went through some hard times and my wife wouldn't let me sell my rig. She told me I would regret it for the rest of my life. She agreed to me selling my AAD so we could pay some bills and buy groceries so I did. I am caught back up now but can't afford to buy another AAD.

No matter how you break it down per day or month, they are still $1300 dollars...American. I don't have that and a lot of other people don't have it. Making them mandatory will force some people out of the sport and probably drive up the cost. Once you can't jump without it then manufacturers will be able to charge whatever they want. There are only so many AADs out there and you won't be able to just not have one right?

To say that cost is not a good reason seems a bit condescending to those who really don't have the money. I just spent a bunch of money on a rigger course registration for January and I will probably replace my AAD in my wings rig in March or April with my tax return (my wife thinks I should) but honestly I give as much of my free money to this sport as I can and there's just not much to give. No matter how you explain the annual cost or the daily cost or the per-jump cost as being low and affordable, that explanation doesn't buy an AAD. $1300 does.

Like someone else already said. We are grown ass adults. I think in a sport that has inherent risks people should be able to make their own decisions about AADs.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[billvon 2,400]

>When you look at how much they really cost over its life I still don't get why
>anybody that is not a world class swooper only doing hop and pops would not
>jump with one.

1) A lot of people think they are world class swoopers.
2) Some people prefer to make another 50 jumps than get an AAD.
3) Some people think that they're not going to forget to pull.
4) Some people just don't want the extra protection and have accepted that they may die as a result.

In my experience, 4) is very, very rare but there are a few out there.

[JeffCa 0]

billvon

1) A lot of people think they are world class swoopers.
2) Some people prefer to make another 50 jumps than get an AAD.
3) Some people think that they're not going to forget to pull.
4) Some people just don't want the extra protection and have accepted that they may die as a result.

In my experience, 4) is very, very rare but there are a few out there.

My instructor for my 1st A-licence back in 2003 was a #4. He said if he couldn't save his own life that he deserved what he got. I wonder if he'd still say the same now that AADs have matured and become so common.

Perhaps those of us who can afford AADs should be encouraged to put them up for sale when they still have 1-3 years left on them, instead of running them down to zero. We could get a lot of AADs on the used market with some life left in them for hugely discounted prices over new, to allow our friends who can't afford a brand new one to always have one by essentially paying instalments every 1-3 years. My understanding is they hold their value pretty well, so it wouldn't even be much of a loss for those who are selling early.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[rmarshall234 13]

>In my experience, 4) is very, very rare but there are a few out there.

I guess I'm one of those rarities. From the very beginning, the most basic appeal of this sport was that when you left the airplane you were a dead man unless you did things right. Your actions have consequences. It was a fun 35 year run and I'm done jumping now, but that philosophy has permeated my life ever since.