airdvr 197 #1 Posted April 7, 2022 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/wind-energy-company-pleads-guilty-least-150-eagles-killed-us-rcna23360 I'm wondering what effect his will have on future installations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 911 #2 April 7, 2022 Perhaps there should be a software change to SC to allow negative ratings for misinformation. "In the Sovacool study cited above, it was found that wind farms are responsible for 0.3 bird deaths per gigawatt-hour (GWh) of electricity, whereas fossil-fuel power stations are responsible for 5.2 fatalities per GWh. and Brent's favorite 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #3 April 7, 2022 4 minutes ago, airdvr said: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/wind-energy-company-pleads-guilty-least-150-eagles-killed-us-rcna23360 I'm wondering what effect his will have on future installations. Clearly the production of energy is not without negative side effects. More than 76,000 coal miners have died of black lung since 1968, according to statistics from the U.S. Department of Labor. The Deepwater Horizon spill likely harmed or killed about 82,000 birds of 102 species; about 6,165 sea turtles; as many as 25,900 marine mammals; and a vast (but unknown) number of fish. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #4 April 7, 2022 I understand that. Will future costs factor in millions of dollars in fines? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,299 #5 April 7, 2022 23 minutes ago, airdvr said: I understand that. Will future costs factor in millions of dollars in fines? Absolutely. And seeing as how it's all passed to the consumer anyway maybe we should just cut out the middleman and fine the users directly. It worked with hookers, right? Maybe if we start seeing pictures of offenders on the nightly news power usage will decline and the numbers of eagles would increase. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #6 April 7, 2022 24 minutes ago, airdvr said: I understand that. Will future costs factor in millions of dollars in fines? If all energy production costs were to include the cost of remediation (including climate effects), the balance would be quite different. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #7 April 7, 2022 1 hour ago, airdvr said: I understand that. Will future costs factor in millions of dollars in fines? There is a permitting process that allows for a certain number of bird kills as long as the company applies recommended procedures to minimize avoidable killing. NextEra Energy (the company that was fined) never applied for a permit, and they ignored numerous recommendations about how to minimize bird kills. Perhaps they got sucked in by the Trump era policy of not enforcing the Migratory Bird Act, and thought that policy would last forever. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 911 #8 April 7, 2022 1 hour ago, airdvr said: I understand that. Will future costs factor in millions of dollars in fines? Its coming: "Exxon scientists recorded the evidence about the dangers of burning fossil fuels. In 1978, its science adviser, James Black, warned that there was a “window of five to ten years before the need for hard decisions regarding changes in energy strategy might become critical”. ...“systematic, organised campaign by Exxon and other oil companies to sow doubt about the science and prevent meaningful action”. The report accused the energy companies of not only polluting the air but also “the information landscape” by replicating the cigarette makers’ playbook of cherry-picking data, using fake experts and promoting conspiracy theories to attack a growing scientific consensus." Today there are lawsuits to hold big oil to account. Just as tobacco was held to account for its lies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #9 April 7, 2022 2 hours ago, GeorgiaDon said: There is a permitting process that allows for a certain number of bird kills as long as the company applies recommended procedures to minimize avoidable killing. NextEra Energy (the company that was fined) never applied for a permit, and they ignored numerous recommendations about how to minimize bird kills. Perhaps they got sucked in by the Trump era policy of not enforcing the Migratory Bird Act, and thought that policy would last forever. Domestic cats still kill more song birds than wind turbines. Raptors (predatory birds like falcons and eagles) often collide with wind turbine blades while chasing the smaller birds that become their supper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #10 April 7, 2022 4 hours ago, airdvr said: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/wind-energy-company-pleads-guilty-least-150-eagles-killed-us-rcna23360 I'm wondering what effect his will have on future installations. It will result in wind-hating conservatives crying crocodile tears over all the poor dead birds, while their cats kill billions - and how DARE any busybody liberals criticize my cat! Keep your nose out of my business! Bird kill numbers per year: Wind turbines 234,000 Power line electrocutions 5,600,000 Power line impacts 25,500,000 Pesticide poison 72,000,000 Vehicle collisions 214,500,000 Building glass 599,000,000 Cats 2,400,000,000 By energy source per year: Solar: 1000 Wind: 234,000 Nuclear: 330,000 Oil/gas: 750,000 Coal: 7,900,000 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #11 April 7, 2022 1 hour ago, billvon said: By energy source per year: Solar: 1000 Wind: 234,000 Nuclear: 330,000 Oil/gas: 750,000 Coal: 7,900,000 But if a cleaner energy source / car / construction method / lifestyle isn’t absolutely perfect then it’s no better than the dirtiest. Surely this is obvious! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bigfalls 110 #12 April 7, 2022 7 hours ago, kallend said: Clearly the production of energy is not without negative side effects. More than 76,000 coal miners have died of black lung since 1968, according to statistics from the U.S. Department of Labor. The Deepwater Horizon spill likely harmed or killed about 82,000 birds of 102 species; about 6,165 sea turtles; as many as 25,900 marine mammals; and a vast (but unknown) number of fish. There were 33,244 fatal motor vehicle crashes in the United States in 2019 in which 36,096 deaths occurred. Powered by fossil fuels. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,341 #13 April 8, 2022 4 hours ago, Bigfalls said: There were 33,244 fatal motor vehicle crashes in the United States in 2019 in which 36,096 deaths occurred. Powered by fossil fuels. A bit of devil's advocate here, but does the power source matter? Electric powered vehicles are involved in fatal crashes too. Tesla likes to promote how safe it's cars are (and they are pretty safe), but they kill people too. One of the criticisms of electric & hybrid cars is that they're too quiet. Pedestrians can't hear them as easily and get hit by them more often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 122 #14 April 8, 2022 Folks in the emergency response business are learning that electric cars must be handled with care. They typically operate at 350-400 V. There's enough juice to kill ya. There are safety systems designed to disconnect the batteries in a crash but that doesn't always work. Then there is the problem of thermal runaway if the batteries are damaged. That gets exciting real quick. I'm sure they will get it right but in the meantime, don't touch a wrecked electric car until it's been checked for safety. Another interesting fact is that an electric vehicle the same size as a gas vehicle, weighs about 1,000 lbs more. A head on collision is a bad thing if you are in the gas vehicle. What fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,299 #15 April 8, 2022 27 minutes ago, billeisele said: Folks in the emergency response business are learning that electric cars must be handled with care. They typically operate at 350-400 V. There's enough juice to kill ya. There are safety systems designed to disconnect the batteries in a crash but that doesn't always work. Then there is the problem of thermal runaway if the batteries are damaged. That gets exciting real quick. I'm sure they will get it right but in the meantime, don't touch a wrecked electric car until it's been checked for safety. Another interesting fact is that an electric vehicle the same size as a gas vehicle, weighs about 1,000 lbs more. A head on collision is a bad thing if you are in the gas vehicle. What fun. Those damn horseless carriages were a danger to all, too, for a while. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #16 April 8, 2022 43 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said: Pedestrians can't hear them as easily and get hit by them more often. As of (I think) 2018 EV's, PHEV's and HEV's have to make a noise when they are driving slowly to avoid that very problem. I have an earlier one, and I have to be a lot more careful in parking lots because people will literally walk into the car because they can't hear it, and they never look up from their phone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,299 #17 April 8, 2022 6 minutes ago, billvon said: As of (I think) 2018 EV's, PHEV's and HEV's have to make a noise when they are driving slowly to avoid that very problem. I have an earlier one, and I have to be a lot more careful in parking lots because people will literally walk into the car because they can't hear it, and they never look up from their phone. You are too cheap to buy a whistle? They make electric whistles: https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Whistle-Electric-Blowless-Emergency/dp/B08LPNTN8S/ref=asc_df_B08LPNTN8S/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=475789739974&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7342635107300148497&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032857&hvtargid=pla-1041495905470&psc=1 You can sort out wiring it to your lighter, yes? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #18 April 8, 2022 29 minutes ago, JoeWeber said: You are too cheap to buy a whistle? They make electric whistles: Electric whistle? I just stick a playing card in the spokes of the wheel, held with a clothespin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,299 #19 April 8, 2022 1 hour ago, billvon said: Electric whistle? I just stick a playing card in the spokes of the wheel, held with a clothespin. Just like they teach at MIT. Alrighty, then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #20 April 8, 2022 9 hours ago, billvon said: As of (I think) 2018 EV's, PHEV's and HEV's have to make a noise when they are driving slowly to avoid that very problem. I have an earlier one, and I have to be a lot more careful in parking lots because people will literally walk into the car because they can't hear it, and they never look up from their phone. This is true. They also have to have backup beepers. While my whooshers (my name for the slow-motion soundmaker) are reasonably pleasant, the backup beeper is appallingly loud, with the speaker on the front bumper, making it take a little longer for a pedestrian to figure out who it means Wendy P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #21 April 8, 2022 9 hours ago, billeisele said: Another interesting fact is that an electric vehicle the same size as a gas vehicle, weighs about 1,000 lbs more. A head on collision is a bad thing if you are in the gas vehicle. What fun. Since when has anyone ever cared about that? If they did, the enormous super duallys and so on wouldn't exist. If an F450 or whatever hits, say, a miata, it pretty much won't even feel the bump, and a lot of people who drive those trucks see that as a point of pride. It's a bit late to get worried about vehicle weight. I saw a review of the new Hummer Electric truck last night - no-one has learnt any lessons about energy consumption. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 122 #22 April 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Stumpy said: Since when has anyone ever cared about that? If they did, the enormous super duallys and so on wouldn't exist. If an F450 or whatever hits, say, a miata, it pretty much won't even feel the bump, and a lot of people who drive those trucks see that as a point of pride. It's a bit late to get worried about vehicle weight. I saw a review of the new Hummer Electric truck last night - no-one has learnt any lessons about energy consumption. Do you normally take a specifically stated set of parameters and alter it to create an argument? The post was clearly talking about vehicles of the same SIZE. But thanks for letting us know that a F450 would squash a Miata, a fact that no one, except you, could have possibly known. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,341 #23 April 8, 2022 1 minute ago, billeisele said: Do you normally take a specifically stated set of parameters and alter it to create an argument? The post was clearly talking about vehicles of the same SIZE. But thanks for letting us know that a F450 would squash a Miata, a fact that no one, except you, could have possibly known. Saw a blurb on the news in the last couple days that almost 80% of new vehicles sold are pickups or SUVs. Kinda curious what the average gross vehicle weight is these days. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #24 April 8, 2022 50 minutes ago, billeisele said: Do you normally take a specifically stated set of parameters and alter it to create an argument? The post was clearly talking about vehicles of the same SIZE. But thanks for letting us know that a F450 would squash a Miata, a fact that no one, except you, could have possibly known. If only cars of the same SIZE crashed into each other, you'd have a point. As it stands, you don't. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 122 #25 April 8, 2022 45 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said: Saw a blurb on the news in the last couple days that almost 80% of new vehicles sold are pickups or SUVs. Kinda curious what the average gross vehicle weight is these days. Good morning. That would be interesting. Even within the pickup truck group there is a huge range. The range on full size and heavy duty trucks is 4,000 - 8,600. https://vehq.com/truck-curb-weight/ The small trucks would be somewhat lighter. The Ford F-150 is one of the most popular. It weighs 4000 - 5000. They have done a ton of work to lighten the trucks and improve the engines to hep met CAFE standards. My 2012 gets 18 mpg with the V-6 eco boost engine. The GMC 1500 with the V-8 gets 12-13, with the 3.0 diesel it gets 26-29. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites