Warmer climate = more power interruptions

[airdvr 197]

JoeWeber

*********Refreshing to hear an informed poster who hasn't drunk the Kool-aid

What Kool Aid? This was a lesson in energy grid economics for which I am very much appreciative. As a result, I intend to study this a bit more. That said, I read no inherent wrongness to Solar Power in the postings.

The fact is that public policy is often shaped by these sorts of inequities. Cigarette smokers, as a matter of public policy, are heavily taxed to affect that behavior.

I see that as good policy. Subsidizing solar, at least here and now, also seems like good policy. But then I believe that anthropogenic climate change is real.

Nothing wrong with solar...it's just not applicable in some parts of the country. Unfortunately public policy up to now has been written on the west coast. Here in the flyover states we'll still need coal, nuke, and natural gas. I'm seeing more wind sites here in Ohio. Seems we have more windy days than sunny.

If you're fortunate enough to live where solar can replace the others then good for you. I'd like to see more work done to address someplace other than where it's 80 and sunny 300 days per year.

Quote

where it's 80 and sunny 300 days per year.

Fantastic. I'll spread the word. Better yet, I''l spray paint on the sign at the border: Oregon, where it's 80 and sunny 300 days per year.

M'kay

Quote

No Savings using Solar in Portland Oregon
06-06-2012, 03:56 AM
Well I am one of the fools that fell for a fast talking Solar salesmen, I'm leasing a system from SolarCity in Portland Oregon. I have a 3.78kW system on my roof, the front of my house faces West and half of the panels are on this side. The other half are on the East facing side. On the east side I also have a Flat roof and this is where part of the panels were to be mounted, with the rest on the west. When the sun is shining in the afternoon the west panels are in the sunlight and the east are in the shade. How can I be making full power with half of the panels in the shade???
By the way I started the process of installing the system 03/01/11 and it wasn't turned on until 10/15/11, during this time I was told that they couldn't install the panels on the East side because of the lack of afternoon sun on them. Well they told me that because of Structural issues they couldn't put the panels on the flat roof. So they said that they (could) put them on the East roof, and somehow came up with an extra 8% of output doing this. Go figure, really 8% more?
So where this is all going is, I'm paying more now for power then I did before the panels were installed. Why, well I have my power use bill plus my lease payment. Then in Oregon we have a Energy tax credit of $1500. every year for 4 years. But in May of every year SolarCity takes $1000. of this and when you file for the credit on your taxes you get the $1500 credit minus the $1000. = $500.

So up to this point in Portland we have had more cloudy and rainy days then sunny days, so the panels sit there and soak up money. I figure that I'm in the hole about $75. a month because of Solar, I got 0% output last year because it took them 7 months to install a system that should have been installed in 2 months max!

And here's the kicker, I'm a retired disabled vet living on a fixed income that is ALL Tax Free. I don't pay taxes so I can't take the Energy Tax Credit. They tell me that I can sell the credit for up to 95% of the $1500., but I haven't found anyone who wants to buy it.

I should have changed my name to Solar Screwed!!!!!

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 2,400]

>Based on that description, the utility would be getting a free ride from the
>customer if the customer is not allowed to charge the utility for their overhead.

If you are willing to generate large amounts of power, and ramp up and down rapidly upon power company demand, then it would make sense to charge the utility for that service. And small generators do.

Most systems (mine included) do not do that. You want the utility to guarantee any amount of power (up to 24 or 48 kilowatts) whenever you ask for it, and also to act as a big battery for when you are producing. That's a service - and you pay for it.

If you feel that is unfair - if you feel that the service you get is not worth what you pay - you can disconnect from the grid and provide yourself that service. Most people who do that quickly discover what a good deal utility power actually is.

[billvon 2,400]

>I'm leasing a system from SolarCity

Well there's his first problem right there. Leases are problematic, and SolarCity leases are especially bad.

>How can I be making full power with half of the panels in the shade???

Because they are not. On a typical roof such an arrangement gets sun on the panels an average of 5 hours a day, instead of 5.5 hours with an ideal (south at latitude, for example) orientation. However, such systems can often generate more _energy._

As solar panels have gotten cheaper, it has gotten more and more common to "overpanel." For example, take someone who wants a 10kW system. Due to the 120% rule, their inverter cannot generate more than about 7.6kW. What to do? One good option is to mount some panels facing southeast, some facing southwest. Now they produce more during the beginning and end of the day (facing sunrise and sunset) but less at noon. Which is OK because you can't produce more than 7.6kW anyway. But your total energy produced still goes up, because you are producing for longer.

In the olden timey days panels were very expensive. It made sense to orient them perfectly, often on tracking mounts that pointed them directly at the sun every minute of the day. That maximized production from the panel, which was very important when your panels were 70% of your system cost.

Today they are 15-20% of your system cost. So arrangements that maximize system energy production, rather than panel energy production, make more sense.

> On the east side I also have a Flat roof

Flat mounts are a very bad idea with solar. The panels don't drain, and a layer of crud quickly builds up in the puddle. Then over time the water leaks into the glass/EVA sandwich and destroys the panel.

So on flat roofs you pretty much have to angle them. But angling them also turns them into big sails, and the roof has to be rated to handle the upforce in high winds. And not all roofs are.

>And here's the kicker, I'm a retired disabled vet living on a fixed income that is
>ALL Tax Free. I don't pay taxes so I can't take the Energy Tax Credit.

He didn't realize this until AFTER he paid for a system to be installed that gave him a tax credit?

[rushmc 18]

jcd11235

***If they receive fair market value for the excess power, then that's fair.

You're advocating the customer pay one rate if the power flows in one direction, but receive a different rate if the power flows in the opposite direction. There's nothing fair about that.

Your post demonstrates ignorance of the utility

It cost money to set poles or bury wire and run lines and Transformers to a customer's house. The price they pay is based on their cost of power plus the cost of maintaining the infrastructure. If the customer with solar gets the same price they're paying the utility company then nobody is covering the cost of the lines and wires that go to that customer's house. If he completely disconnects he can do whatever the hell he wants. But if he has to have utility wires to back up his solar installation then he needs to pay on a five minute increment the same price that the utility pays to buy Power on the grid and the market

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[AtrusBatleth 0]

billvon

>No, you're not.

Yes, I am.

My primary solar power system is a 9.88kW system that generates during the day. It covers our daytime needs (and a lot more.)

My secondary system is a 1.2kW system backed up with a battery system (salvaged from EV's.) It charges during the day and then discharges into the grid between 6 and 9pm, when the highest generation ramp rate for the grid occurs.

Now that you have clarified your secondary battery system, I agree with you. Bravo for making a good faith effort to be a benefit to the grid. Most rooftop solar homeowners (at least around here) dont have any battery system let alone try to time when they sell power back to help dampen the peak demand. It is to those typical solar owners that my previous comments were directed at. I agree the next step is to implement better control of distributed generation by the system operator, but I'm impressed with your attempts to anticipate their as-yet silenced demands.

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[AtrusBatleth 0]

pchapman

***net metering customers get to unfairly benefit at the expense of traditional customers. With net metering, your net bill may be extremely small or even negative (utility pays you money), but it still costs the utility money to maintain the transmission lines throughout the system including your local neighborhood and up to your house, and you don't pay your fair share of that cost.

I don't know what different jurisdications do, but where I am (Toronto,Ontario), power bills are divided into a fixed and variable amount.

Such a pricing structure makes perfect logical sense and is where I suspect we are heading. But most US utilities are not there yet.

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

billvon

...He didn't realize this until AFTER he paid for a system to be installed that gave him a tax credit?

Well, the opening line of the quote says it all.

"I fell for a fast talking salesman."

Properly designed, properly installed, properly researched solar systems are fine.

But, as with anything like this, there will be hucksters and con men that go out and rip people off.

I'll guess that the fella quoted above didn't do any real research on solar before signing.
I'd bet that the sales creature had a 'awesome discount, but only if you sign right now' that turned out to be not so 'awesome'.

None of that means anything about solar in general.

But, of course, the detractors want to tie con men in with the legit outfits to discredit the entire idea of solar.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[AtrusBatleth 0]

jcd11235

You're claiming that solar customers are taking energy from the grid during the day when power is expensive and they're capable of producing their own power with solar cells, but they're pumping excess power back to the grid during the cool night, when their power isn't worth as much.

Call me skeptical.

It's not as simple as "day price" vs "night price", even though that is how some utilities have started implementing time-of-day pricing to its customers. The market price that utilities pay and bid for power changes every 5 minutes. Yes the customer demand is generally higher during the day, but when there is a lot of solar on the supply side, there is a glut of supply during the middle of the day, hence prices are actually low. The peak times when prices are higher than average are in the morning and close to sunset, especially close to sunset. If there is sufficient solar supplying the grid, the mid-day prices will actually be much cheaper than the middle of the night. Pretty crazy eh?

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[wmw999 2,121]

Quote

80 and sunny 300 days per year

Like Western Massachusetts, where I live? We have a LOT of solar here; both housetop, and farms, both utility and share (ie you can buy a share in a farm, and subsidize your usage).

I see way more panels in Mass than I’ve seen anywhere here in the southwest, where we’ve been touring for the last month. I guess it’s all that sun we get in Mass.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 18]

wmw999

Quote

80 and sunny 300 days per year

Like Western Massachusetts, where I live? We have a LOT of solar here; both housetop, and farms, both utility and share (ie you can buy a share in a farm, and subsidize your usage).

I see way more panels in Mass than I’ve seen anywhere here in the southwest, where we’ve been touring for the last month. I guess it’s all that sun we get in Mass.

Wendy P.

Are your state subsidies high there?

Just curious.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,121]

I don’t know.
But we tend to be kind of leading edge of lots of stuff.
Someone has to be, and I’m fine with that.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jcd11235 0]

kallend

Define "fair" please.

In abstract terms, it's when one has no preference as to which party of the contract they are. That's somewhat problematic here, because the utility has to sell energy, but they could get by without buying, and the customer (usually) has to buy some energy, but could get by without selling.

In this case, same price either direction is fair. The customer makes the investment and takes all of the risk on their side. They usually don't get to pick their supplier. Charging only for net usage, not net usage plus a surcharge for being a responsible human, is fair.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[AtrusBatleth 0]

wmw999

I don’t know.
But we tend to be kind of leading edge of lots of stuff.
Someone has to be, and I’m fine with that.

Wendy P.

Well everyone can still get the 30% federal subsidy, then Massachusetts has additional subsidies of $0.50-1.50 per Watt depending on location, which is almost half the cost. So I'd say subsidies are high there. They have to make up for the early shutdown of the Pilgrim nuclear plant and all that carbon free generation somehow.

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[gowlerk 1,912]

Fair? It won’t matter if it’s not sustainable.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Westerly 61]

jcd11235

***Edit to add (but too late for me to actually edit apparently):
The annual average cost per kWh that a traditional customer pays is actually higher than just the average cost of generating the electricity; a significant portion of the extra overhead goes towards maintaining the transmission system. That's another way that net metering customers get to unfairly benefit at the expense of traditional customers.

The power company is the customer. Why should they get to avoid paying for the overhead required to produce the power they purchase? The homeowner invested in solar power. Their home improvement investment should not have to go towards subsidizing your power needs.

The power company is the customer because they are being nice, not because they need you. The power company couldn't give a crap about your solar. They don't need anyone's solar panels to do what they do and rooftop solar makes their job harder, not easier. Where I live, if you piss off the power company with your solar (e.g. install panels without permission or exceed your allocated capacity), they disconnect you from the grid and mail you a good luck memo. They buy your solar as a matter of public policy and not because they actually want it. The grid is not intended for two-way power traffic and the addition of solar explosion in some larger cities have caused many serious issues that the solar company isint too thrilled to be dealing with.

As others have explained, net metering customers are able to sell power for more than what's actually worth. They sell at the same rate they buy, which means for every kilowatt hour the power company buys from you, they actually lose money and the deficit is recouped traditionally by charging higher prices to those who do not have solar. That's exactly what's happening where I live and non-solar customers are (rightfully) pissed off their bills keep going up and up because more people keep installing solar and not paying for grid maintenance. This is such an issue that the power company put a freeze on all new solar installations.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

jcd11235

***Define "fair" please.

In abstract terms, it's when one has no preference as to which party of the contract they are. That's somewhat problematic here, because the utility has to sell energy, but they could get by without buying, and the customer (usually) has to buy some energy, but could get by without selling.

In this case, same price either direction is fair. The customer makes the investment and takes all of the risk on their side. They usually don't get to pick their supplier. Charging only for net usage, not net usage plus a surcharge for being a responsible human, is fair.

Not really. Fairness is subjective to the contracting parties.

[billvon 2,400]

>The power company is the customer because they are being nice, not because they need you.

Well, no, they are being customers because the people of the state (via the utilities commission) is telling them they have to be. If left to their own devices, utilities would charge as much as possible and not let anyone sell back to them. But since they are a state-sanctioned monopoly, a public utilities commission tells them what rates they are allowed to charge and how they have to behave.

Which is a good thing overall. Monopolies are not known for being "nice."

[DJL 232]

Quote

Nothing wrong with solar...it's just not applicable in some parts of the country. Unfortunately public policy up to now has been written on the west coast. Here in the flyover states we'll still need coal, nuke, and natural gas. I'm seeing more wind sites here in Ohio. Seems we have more windy days than sunny.

If you're fortunate enough to live where solar can replace the others then good for you. I'd like to see more work done to address someplace other than where it's 80 and sunny 300 days per year.

I recall we talked about solar in Ohio a while back so you must have forgotten it. Your area is just fine for solar. Here's a map (scroll down) comparing you to Arizona. Your state is starting to install more solar on a global scale you're just a little bit farther North. Remember that solar electric isn't the only solar source, active solar heating is used even on industrial scales in Canada.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,400]

>I recall we talked about solar in Ohio a while back so you must have forgotten it. Your area
>is just fine for solar.

Not as good as Phoenix, but still not too bad. A solar installation in Columbus will generate about 65% of the same sized solar installation in Phoenix.

Fortunately Ohio is seeing progress as well:
==================
FirstEnergy Solutions closing its last Ohio and Pennsylvania coal-fired power plants
Updated Aug 30; Posted Aug 29
Cleveland.com

By John Funk, The Plain Dealer
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- FirstEnergy Solutions on Wednesday night announced it plans to close its last Ohio coal-fired power plant, the W.H. Sammis plant on the Ohio River in Stratton, and its last Pennsylvania coal plant, the Bruce Mansfield plant on the River in Shippingport.

The company blamed the regional wholesale markets overseen by grid manager PJM Interconnection. It set June 1, 2021, to close Bruce Mansfield and June 1, 2022 to close Sammis.

"Our decision to retire the fossil-fueled plants was every bit as difficult as the one we made five months ago to deactivate our nuclear assets [in 2020 and 2021]," said Donald Moul, President of FES Generation Companies and Chief Nuclear Officer, in a prepared statement.
===================
Solar power in Ohio
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Solar power in Ohio has been increasing, as the cost of photovoltaics has decreased. Ohio installed 10 MW of solar in 2015. Ohio adopted a net metering rule which allows any customer generating up to 25 kW to use net metering, with the kilowatt hour surplus rolled over each month, and paid by the utility once a year at the generation rate upon request. For hospitals there is no limit on size, but two meters are required, one for generation, the other for utility supplied power.

In 2010, the 12 MW solar farm in Upper Sandusky, Ohio was the largest solar farm in the state. The 20MW DG AMP Solar Bowling Green was completed in January 2017.

The First Solar factory in Perrysburg, Ohio can make almost 600 MW of panels per years.
=====================

[DanG 1]

I went to Arizona for vacation a couple weeks ago. Flying into Phoenix I was surprised at the lack of rooftop solar installations. Maybe 1% of the houses had them. Maybe it is the upfront costs, since many of the neighborhoods in the approach path to PHX looked to be lower cost. Once we got out of the Phoenix area toward Flagstaff and Page it seemed like almost everyone had some form of solar installed.

- Dan G

[kallend 1,623]

I was in Turkey in 2013, and was surprised by the number of domestic solar water heating installations there (apparently in excess of 10GW). Also quite a lot of photovoltaics.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

Maybe less sky will fall...


https://www.foxnews.com/science/error-in-major-climate-study-revealed-warming-not-higher-than-expected

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln