cliffs 0 #1 February 21, 2018 So I'm 16 and my friends and I are looking for places to tandem skydive near the Oklahoma/Texas area but we are willing to go a bit farther than that. I would really like some recommendations preferably where at least two of us can tandem together at once Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Justincblount 4 #2 February 21, 2018 You have to be 18 to sign the waiver, otherwise it's not legally binding. You could try calling different places and asking, but I highly doubt anyone is gonna take that risk of a lawsuit in this litigious society. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
20_kN 0 #3 February 21, 2018 No USPA affiliated dropzone is allowed to let anyone under 18 jump, so it's not going to happen at most drop zones for that reason alone. When considering the waiver issue and the liability, I dont even think many non-affiliated drop zones will allow it either. You'll probably have to wait until you're 18. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
massis 2 #4 February 21, 2018 20_kNNo USPA affiliated dropzone is allowed to let anyone under 18 jump, so it's not going to happen at most drop zones for that reason alone. When considering the waiver issue and the liability, I dont even think many non-affiliated drop zones will allow it either. You'll probably have to wait until you're 18. For a tandem, really? Luckily in the EUR the minimum age for a tandem is 12. AFF is legal from 16 if your parents sign the waiver. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,311 #5 February 21, 2018 Getting a tandem jump at 16 is harder even than doing an AFF or static line jump, simply because the certification and indemnification is handled by the gear manufacturers, who don't want anyone using their gear who can't sign a waiver for themselves. Regardless, even if you were to find a company willing to do it, you'd have to have both parents, not just one. That said, if there is anyone who does this, they might be sending you a private message to avoid outing non-compliant drop zones -- check your "messages" box (upper right of the screen) to see. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,096 #6 February 21, 2018 QuoteLuckily in the EUR the minimum age for a tandem is 12. AFF is legal from 16 if your parents sign the waiver. Europe seems to have a different idea of what a parent can do. In Canada, and of course the US, the parent's signatures on the waiver mean very little. Just because you are a parent does not allow you to waive the rights of your child. Skydive waivers all require you to give up several rights. Why? Because it is important that the participants understand and accept that their safety depends on their performance. And that they understand that if they get hurt its not someone else's fault. It's an adult sport for a reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hoipex99 0 #7 February 21, 2018 You can get your driving licence with 16 and buy the fastest car if you want,but you are not allowed to do a tandem skydive even if you have the consent of your parents? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMK 3 #8 February 21, 2018 massisLuckily in the EUR the minimum age for a tandem is 12. AFF is legal from 16 if your parents sign the waiver. In much of Europe (not UK), it is often size/weight limited with confirmed authorizations from both parents. Example: minimum 35kgs and 130cm for Spain. My oldest son did his first tandem last year at age 10."Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,096 #9 February 21, 2018 hoipex99You can get your driving licence with 16 and buy the fastest car if you want,but you are not allowed to do a tandem skydive even if you have the consent of your parents? You're missing the point. It's not illegal for someone underage to skydive. And it's not illegal to take them skydiving. It's just that it is unwise from both a legal liability and moral perspective, so we don't. There are some DZs that will, but most are smarter than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammielu 3 #10 February 21, 2018 It's all about liability. Dzs have jumpers fill out a waiver that waives their right to sue (in case of injury, etc). No one can sign away the right for anyone else to sue - only for oneself. A parent can not give up the right for a child to sue, so even their signature doesn't help, and a minors signature doesn't count until they are 18. No waiver, no jumpy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hoipex99 0 #11 February 21, 2018 Sorry,I forgot that you guys over there love to sue everyone for anything all the time ;) Just kidding, I understood your point.It´s just different here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark.Carroll 0 #12 February 21, 2018 Cliffs, You can do a tandem skydive with a parent's signature from age 14-up at West Tennessee Skydiving in Somerville, Tennessee (about an hour east of Memphis). This is the home of Mike Mullins' super king air (great plane) and a very nice drop zone (pool, indoor packing, showerhouse, covered BBQ area, etc.). Link to the DZ's website is http://www.skydivekingair.com/ Mike is a USPA board member and former FedEx pilot. He is able to provide the tandems because he specifically employs an Australian TM (who has an Australian Parachute Federation license) who uses a French tandem rig from a manufacturer that does not have the 18 age requirement. The TM is a really nice guy with excellent qualifications. I can state all this with absolute certainty as my wife and I took our 16 year old son there twice to do tandems (he has 6 at WTS) to see if he was truly interested in the sport. Yep -- you should have seen the grin on his face when he came down from the first one! He will turn 18 this July and is scheduled to start AFF on the day he turns 18. Hope this helps.--Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 136 #13 March 2, 2018 Anywhere besides the Land of the Free and home of the brave lawyers seems to be a piece of cakescissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bob_Church 7 #14 March 3, 2018 hoipex99You can get your driving licence with 16 and buy the fastest car if you want,but you are not allowed to do a tandem skydive even if you have the consent of your parents? I think a more apt comparison would be "how difficult would it be for a 16 year old to find someone who would loan them a car?" It would be legal, but that's not the catch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypilotA1 67 #15 March 3, 2018 Mark.Carroll is absolutely correct. We take 16 year olds for tandems most weekend. I know for sure, as I work at West Tennessee Skydiving as an instructor. Just give us a call or check out our website, www.jumpelvis.com. Hope to see you soon! Paul G. West Tennessee Skydiving Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
20_kN 0 #16 March 3, 2018 Mark.CarrollCliffs, Mike is a USPA board member and former FedEx pilot. He is able to provide the tandems because he specifically employs an Australian TM (who has an Australian Parachute Federation license) who uses a French tandem rig from a manufacturer that does not have the 18 age requirement. The TM is a really nice guy with excellent qualifications. Does he jump at a USPA affiliated DZ? Seems hard to believe the USPA would be cool with one of their board members violating one of their policies. My understanding is that the USPA clearly states that affiliated drop zones are not authorized to let anyone under 18 jump, period. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,096 #17 March 3, 2018 QuoteSeems hard to believe the USPA would be cool with one of their board members violating one of their policies. USPA is not an enforcement agency. Taking underage students on tandems is not illegal in any way. But it does expose you to potential liability that can not be waivered away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SethInMI 158 #18 March 3, 2018 20_kN Does he jump at a USPA affiliated DZ? Seems hard to believe the USPA would be cool with one of their board members violating one of their policies. My understanding is that the USPA clearly states that affiliated drop zones are not authorized to let anyone under 18 jump, period. Show me where it says that. The tandem BSR refers to age limits with "5) All student tandem skydives must be conducted in accordance with the specific manufacturer’s age requirements for the tandem system used for that jump" I can't imagine Mike intentionally violating a BSR, and if he is not using a tandem system that has a 18 age requirement, he isn't.It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark.Carroll 0 #19 March 3, 2018 The key is to understand that we're talking about two different modes of skydiving here -- tandems and student solos. The minimum age for tandems has always been set by the tandem equipment manufacturers through their authority to issue certifications on their equipment. And the US manufacturers have always set their minimum at 18. And USPA has supported that position by requiring a tandem student's age to meet the manufacturer's requirement. In contrast, the minimum age to enter a solo student program (like static line or AFF) at a USPA group member DZ is set by USPA. In the past, it was allowed at age 16 with parental consent. That changed in 2014. Below is the Parachutist "Gearing Up" notice discussing this change. As for Mike's DZ: For his own reasons, West Tennessee Skydiving (WTS) is not a USPA group member, despite Mike being a USPA board member and his DZ observing all the BSRs (18 is indeed WTS's minimum age for entering the student solo program). The French Tandem rig and Aussie TI are the keys to his DZ being able to offer tandems to minors while still staying in compliance with the BSRs. And for what it's worth, my wife and I have found WTS to have a very safety-conscious atmosphere, including observing USPA's requirement for a separate landing areas for high performance landings. We wouldn't have taken our son to any DZ that didn't take skydiving safety seriously. Gearing Up, April 2014 Ed Scott At what age should a person be allowed to skydive? At its most recent meeting, USPA’s board of directors decided the age should be 18 effective May 1. Anyone under 18 who has made a jump prior to that date may continue skydiving as long as they acquire a USPA A license by the last day of 2014. Anyone under 18 who is already licensed by May 1 can continue skydiving without condition. USPA has struggled with this issue for decades. As early as 1963, the minimum age was 21, or 16 with notarized parental consent. In 1970, USPA changed the Basic Safety Requirements to apply the age of majority (which each state establishes separately) as the minimum but kept 16 as the minimum with parental consent. In 1983, the board dropped the age to 18 but still retained the 16-with-consent rule. The history of the age-minimum BSR—21, age of majority and 18—reveals a concern more with liability than with safety even as early as the 1960s, before the explosive rise in lawsuits and court-awarded settlements. For the past few years, USPA’s board continued to struggle with the issue. Others did as well. When the Federal Aviation Administration first allowed tandem jumps under an exemption process, one condition was that participants were to be at least the age of 18. In 2001, when the FAA finally incorporated tandem jumps into Part 105 of the Federal Aviation Regulations, removing their FAA-exemption status, the manufacturers implored USPA to adopt new BSR language that required compliance with any age limit set by the tandem manufacturers. Early drafts of revised Part 105 also showed FAA interest in putting a minimum age for all skydivers in the FARs, a provision that USPA successfully eliminated. Why should USPA be concerned about minors jumping? In many if not most states, minors cannot be a party to legal contracts, including the hold-harmless agreements (commonly but erroneously called “waivers”) used by DZs; it goes against public policy. DZ owners would never allow anyone to jump at their facilities without signing a waiver. Yet that is exactly what they do when they let a minor jump, since the courts in those states will not recognize the waiver. “Then let the DZ owner decide,” some say. We have, and some DZOs let minors jump. And that means that everyone listed on the DZ waiver—the pilots, riggers, packers, instructors, aircraft provider, parachute equipment manufacturers and dealers, as well as USPA—are left without the defense and protection of a waiver when an injured minor or the estate of a minor decides to go to court for redress. USPA’s board is all about promoting skydiving and opening the sport up to any and all who have the desire and ability to participate. In a less litigious society, most on the board would agree that skydiving offers today’s youth opportunities way beyond the virtual world many of them inhabit. But lawyers and litigation and million-dollar judgments are a reality. And so USPA’s board took action to limit our sport’s liability and thus the litigation. And most agree that it is a damn shame. Blue Skies, Ed Scott | D-13532 | USPA Executive Director--Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baronn 111 #20 March 5, 2018 The problem is age of consent in the US. Gotta be 18 to sign the waiver. The Mfg of the gear I use strictly prohibits underage passengers. I'm not gonna risk what I have in this business for that. Now the waivers don't apply in Mexico. If yer willing to pay for the flight over the border, I'm sure sumthin can be worked out...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoGoGadget 0 #21 March 5, 2018 sammieluIt's all about liability. Dzs have jumpers fill out a waiver that waives their right to sue (in case of injury, etc). No one can sign away the right for anyone else to sue - only for oneself. A parent can not give up the right for a child to sue, so even their signature doesn't help, and a minors signature doesn't count until they are 18. No waiver, no jumpy. And yet a parent will sign the hold harmless agreement for a minor child for motorcycle training, motorcycle racing, auto racing, etc. and sign the agreement to allow a 17y/o to join the military. A parent can certainly sign a hold harmless agreement. Since the minor does not have the ability to enter into legal contracts or make other decisions, it falls to the parent. And you are not giving up your right to sue. You are acknowledging the risk and agreeing not to sue. Which means if you do sue, you cannot plead ignorance. However, you can sign all the forms you want, but if the DZO engages in gross negligence, you can sue and win easily. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
20_kN 0 #22 March 19, 2018 SethInMI*** Does he jump at a USPA affiliated DZ? Seems hard to believe the USPA would be cool with one of their board members violating one of their policies. My understanding is that the USPA clearly states that affiliated drop zones are not authorized to let anyone under 18 jump, period. Show me where it says that. The tandem BSR refers to age limits with "5) All student tandem skydives must be conducted in accordance with the specific manufacturer’s age requirements for the tandem system used for that jump" I can't imagine Mike intentionally violating a BSR, and if he is not using a tandem system that has a 18 age requirement, he isn't. It says it on this very website. http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/General_Skydiving_Discussions_F18/USPA_Raises_Minimum_Age_to_18..._Whatcha_think_P4605117 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flying_phish 8 #23 March 19, 2018 I kinda hate to point it out, but... it's right on page 6 of the current online version of the SIM. It's a BSR: D. Age requirements 1. For skydives made within the U.S. and its territories and possessions, skydivers are to be at least 18 years of age. Interesting thing to me is that it says "skydives made within the US," so it really doesn't matter if the TI's license is through USPA, APF, or any other organization. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #24 March 19, 2018 flying_phish... so it really doesn't matter if the TI's license is through USPA, APF, or any other organization. USPA has no jurisdiction over people that are not USPA members. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
20_kN 0 #25 March 19, 2018 peek***... so it really doesn't matter if the TI's license is through USPA, APF, or any other organization. USPA has no jurisdiction over people that are not USPA members.True, but again how many DZs are going to allow someone under 18 jump? I am guessing zero or pretty close to zero. As such, if no DZ, USPA affiliated or otherwise, is going to allow someone under 18 to jump, then in effect the minimum age to jump is 18. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites