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baronn

BOD Meeting July 2018

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baronn

Just another example of the bully tactics some members of the USPA BOD have taken against members of their own organization. This had absolutely nothing to do with this individuals involvement in this incident. He had nothing to do with it. Any Examiners out there willing to let ANYONE run a course and then you would sign them off? Yeah, didn't think so. It was tragic what happened but, it was a really unlucky situation. I personally had an unusual container lock on a Strong DH and my only option was to toss the reserve past the drogue. According to the MFG's it will work 87% of the time. I was lucky, the Lodi pair wasn't. So here we have a very unlucky tragedy and what do some members of the board do? Can't waste a tragedy and they use this to go after Bill and his business. They yank his personal membership, claim this happened because Lodi isn't a GM (on the Fuckin news no less) and then pick apart his staff after they yanked the examiners rating. Nice. So these people that got screwed by this Asswipe that charged them for their ratings, now get boned by the USPA (that they Fuckin paid dues to!) and are required to pay AGAIN so they can continue their livelihood.
Tell me once again how the USPA supports it's members....



Ed Scott never claimed this happened because Lodi wasn't a USPA GM DZ. I have attached the video for you to review.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVUTZ3APTMs

This wasn't an "Unlucky Tragedy". This was negligence by a number of people involved.

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grimmie

***Just another example of the bully tactics some members of the USPA BOD have taken against members of their own organization. This had absolutely nothing to do with this individuals involvement in this incident. He had nothing to do with it. Any Examiners out there willing to let ANYONE run a course and then you would sign them off? Yeah, didn't think so. It was tragic what happened but, it was a really unlucky situation. I personally had an unusual container lock on a Strong DH and my only option was to toss the reserve past the drogue. According to the MFG's it will work 87% of the time. I was lucky, the Lodi pair wasn't. So here we have a very unlucky tragedy and what do some members of the board do? Can't waste a tragedy and they use this to go after Bill and his business. They yank his personal membership, claim this happened because Lodi isn't a GM (on the Fuckin news no less) and then pick apart his staff after they yanked the examiners rating. Nice. So these people that got screwed by this Asswipe that charged them for their ratings, now get boned by the USPA (that they Fuckin paid dues to!) and are required to pay AGAIN so they can continue their livelihood.
Tell me once again how the USPA supports it's members....



Ed Scott never claimed this happened because Lodi wasn't a USPA GM DZ. I have attached the video for you to review.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVUTZ3APTMs

This wasn't an "Unlucky Tragedy". This was negligence by a number of people involved.

They keep mentioning the TI not having required USPA certifications. I'm not a TI, but it is my understanding is that no one legally needs anything from the USPA to be a TI. They need a rating from the manufacturer and that is the only rating that matters. If they have a USPA TI rating but no manufacturer rating, legally they cannot do a TI jump. Is that accurate?

So the more important question is did he have a TI rating from UTP (or whatever rig they use)?

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Gee thanks. We have all seen that. Maybe he didn't come right out with those words but, any lay person would certainly get that impression. Funny, I don't remember any USPA Offficial ever coming onto a news show and saying anything like that even after a fatality at a member DZ Had to be 1 of the dumbest statements from this organization and there is plenty of competition for that title. This is the same guy that now wants to spend 25K a yr for the next 5 yrs on a fucking museum that nobody is gonna visit.
On a side note, it was heart wrenching to see that Mom relive what was probably the worst day of her life.

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grimmie

The BOD voted on the museum spending. It was all their idea.



I think it can be said even more accurately that the BOD was lobbied hard by some museum folks, and it convinced 13 of the 22 BOD members who voted "for" this. FYI, I voted "against".

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As this onion continues to be peeled back, it is becoming more clear how far from any semblance of reality some BOD members have become. I sure wude like to hear what the reasoning is to spend these funds on a place few are ever gonna visit. Don't get me wrong. the history of skydiving shude be preserved but, this isn't the way. Has anyone contacted the National air and space museum? Seems like it wude be a great fit. They have Baumgartners stuff on display there, adding the history of skydiving wude be a natural fit.

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Westerly

******Just another example of the bully tactics some members of the USPA BOD have taken against members of their own organization. This had absolutely nothing to do with this individuals involvement in this incident. He had nothing to do with it. Any Examiners out there willing to let ANYONE run a course and then you would sign them off? Yeah, didn't think so. It was tragic what happened but, it was a really unlucky situation. I personally had an unusual container lock on a Strong DH and my only option was to toss the reserve past the drogue. According to the MFG's it will work 87% of the time. I was lucky, the Lodi pair wasn't. So here we have a very unlucky tragedy and what do some members of the board do? Can't waste a tragedy and they use this to go after Bill and his business. They yank his personal membership, claim this happened because Lodi isn't a GM (on the Fuckin news no less) and then pick apart his staff after they yanked the examiners rating. Nice. So these people that got screwed by this Asswipe that charged them for their ratings, now get boned by the USPA (that they Fuckin paid dues to!) and are required to pay AGAIN so they can continue their livelihood.
Tell me once again how the USPA supports it's members....



Ed Scott never claimed this happened because Lodi wasn't a USPA GM DZ. I have attached the video for you to review.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVUTZ3APTMs

This wasn't an "Unlucky Tragedy". This was negligence by a number of people involved.

They keep mentioning the TI not having required USPA certifications. I'm not a TI, but it is my understanding is that no one legally needs anything from the USPA to be a TI. They need a rating from the manufacturer and that is the only rating that matters. If they have a USPA TI rating but no manufacturer rating, legally they cannot do a TI jump. Is that accurate?

So the more important question is did he have a TI rating from UTP (or whatever rig they use)?

I will repeat myself from an earlier post in this thread, the person in question:

Was not a USPA Member, and had never been.
Had no USPA License, and never had one.
Had no USPA Tandem Rating, and never had one.
Had no manufatuerer's rating, and never had one.

Mike Mullins

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Westerly

it is my understanding is that no one legally needs anything from the USPA to be a TI.



Incorrect. FAR 105.45 states:

Sec. 105.45 — Use of tandem parachute systems.
(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation using a tandem parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a tandem parachute system, unless—

(1) One of the parachutists using the tandem parachute system is the parachutist in command, and meets the following requirements:
(i) Has a minimum of 3 years of experience in parachuting, and must provide documentation that the parachutist—
(ii) Has completed a minimum of 500 freefall parachute jumps using a ram-air parachute, and
(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and
(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator.
(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used...




That of course begs the question, what organizations are recognized by the FAA? The answer is found in the FAA Field Inspector Guide 8900, which states:


D. United States Parachute Association (USPA). The sport parachute industry
is largely self-regulated, with most sport parachute operators belonging to the USPA.

1) The USPA has established a group member program as a way for sport parachute
schools, centers, and clubs to provide its affiliates with resources, such as recommended aircraft
inspection programs, pilot safety information, and safety procedures.

2) The USPA is the only national skydiving organization currently recognized by
the FAA.

3) The USPA “D” license is the only license that meets the master parachute license
requirement of § 105.45.


4) Inspectors may verify USPA credentials by emailing [email protected]



So yes, tandem instructors are required to hold a valid and current Master license issued by USPA (which is valid only with active membership) to legally perform tandem skydives in the United States.


Pass it on.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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chuckakers

***it is my understanding is that no one legally needs anything from the USPA to be a TI.



Incorrect. FAR 105.45 states:

Sec. 105.45 — Use of tandem parachute systems.
(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation using a tandem parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a tandem parachute system, unless—

(1) One of the parachutists using the tandem parachute system is the parachutist in command, and meets the following requirements:
(i) Has a minimum of 3 years of experience in parachuting, and must provide documentation that the parachutist—
(ii) Has completed a minimum of 500 freefall parachute jumps using a ram-air parachute, and
(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and
(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator.
(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used...




That of course begs the question, what organizations are recognized by the FAA? The answer is found in the FAA Field Inspector Guide 8900, which states:


D. United States Parachute Association (USPA). The sport parachute industry
is largely self-regulated, with most sport parachute operators belonging to the USPA.

1) The USPA has established a group member program as a way for sport parachute
schools, centers, and clubs to provide its affiliates with resources, such as recommended aircraft
inspection programs, pilot safety information, and safety procedures.

2) The USPA is the only national skydiving organization currently recognized by
the FAA.

3) The USPA “D” license is the only license that meets the master parachute license
requirement of § 105.45.


4) Inspectors may verify USPA credentials by emailing [email protected]



So yes, tandem instructors are required to hold a valid and current Master license issued by USPA (which is valid only with active membership) to legally perform tandem skydives in the United States.


Pass it on.
Interesting because I've never seen the USPA refer to a D license as a master parachutist. Just look uptread. Mike said this:

"Here is the complete list of the Certificate of Competency (world license requirements):

‘A’ Certificate: ‘Parachutist’
1. 25 freefall jumps.
2. 5 minutes of freefall time.
3. 5 formation skydives involving at least two participants OR 5 freefly jumps under the
supervision of an instructor.
4. Demonstrate control of the body in all axes (backloops, turns, barrel rolls etc.)
5. Ability to pack a main parachute.
6. Demonstrate ability to land a parachute within 50 meters of a target, on at least 10
jumps.

‘B’ Certificate: ‘Freefall Parachutist’
1. 50 freefall jumps.
2. 30 minutes of freefall time.
3. Successful completion of ten formation skydives, OR ten formation freefly jumps, at
least five of which, in either discipline, must involve at least 3 participants.

‘C’ Certificate: ‘Experienced Parachutist’
1. 200 freefall jumps.
2. 1 hour of freefall time.
3. Successful completion of fifty formation skydives, OR fifty formation freefly jumps, at
least ten of which, in either discipline, must involve at least 4 participants.

‘D’ Certificate: ‘Senior Parachutist’

1. 500 freefall jumps.
2. 3 hours of freefall time.

Mike Mullins
USPA National Director "


I dont see the word master parachutist mentioned anywhere in the SIM, IRM or elsewhere. Maybe it's time to crank out that new E license standard? ;)

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Perhaps I missed that earlier post Mike. My bad. So yer saying, the instructor had no USPA license, no rating and just showed up and started tossing drogues? How cude anyone do that? How wude they even know what to do? Something is just not adding up here. He had performed a jump prior because from what I understand he packed this rig and failed to set the drogue. Bad but, not the end of the world since it collapses when released anyway. It wude sure be nice to get the full and straight story here.

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At this stage of this discussion, nobody is doubting the need for a rating and who issues that in this country. What I'm attempting to do is discuss some of the past actions of the BOD. Yer new to this game and I don't believe you had anything to do with the actions in Lodi. It wude sure be helpful to find out the real facts of that situation. From the 1st story I've read and the last post from Mike, it has changed. Perhaps I just haven't gotten it all and perhaps we never will.

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peek

***The BOD voted on the museum spending. It was all their idea.



I think it can be said even more accurately that the BOD was lobbied hard by some museum folks, and it convinced 13 of the 22 BOD members who voted "for" this. FYI, I voted "against".

Can you list who voted for it, or provide a method to find this information out?

I mean it is membership money, so it should be public record....
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Interesting because I've never seen the USPA refer to a D license as a master parachutist. Just look uptread. Mike said this:



My license says "Master". It was listed as Master for decades. It then went to saying "Expert", now they say nothing (IIRC).

But when the FAR's were written, the USPA "D" license said "Master".... If needed, I can PM you a pic of my license (If I can find it).
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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baronn

Perhaps I missed that earlier post Mike. My bad. So yer saying, the instructor had no USPA license, no rating and just showed up and started tossing drogues? How cude anyone do that? How wude they even know what to do? Something is just not adding up here. He had performed a jump prior because from what I understand he packed this rig and failed to set the drogue. Bad but, not the end of the world since it collapses when released anyway. It wude sure be nice to get the full and straight story here.



What I said is 100% accurate.

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baronn

Perhaps I missed that earlier post Mike. My bad. So yer saying, the instructor had no USPA license, no rating and just showed up and started tossing drogues? How cude anyone do that? How wude they even know what to do?



Doesn't seem hard.

1) Take a skydiving course at a non-USPA DZ.
2) Make a bunch of jumps.
3) Get a friend to teach you how tandem rigs work.
4) Buy a tandem rig from someone selling it used.
5) Find an unscrupulous DZO who likes money and work for him.

Heck, even in this very thread there are a few people with the sort of "fuck USPA" attitude that would enable the above.

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Ron

Can you list who voted for it, or provide a method to find this information out? I mean it is membership money, so it should be public record....



A system exists where a BOD member can ask that their vote be recorded "by name", which means it will show up in the meeting minutes. (Some of us do that from time to time, but for some reason I did not do it for this vote.)

The draft minutes of the meeting do not show that anyone did that. So you will need to ask the individual BOD members how they voted.

It might be a good exercise for you, to see who cares enough to respond to you. [email protected]

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A system exists where a BOD member can ask that their vote be recorded "by name", which means it will show up in the meeting minutes. (Some of us do that from time to time, but for some reason I did not do it for this vote.)



Anytime members money is being given away, the votes should be recorded.

Quote

It might be a good exercise for you, to see who cares enough to respond to you. [email protected]



I have been down this path before, I will get incomplete data that will not give me the information I wanted. I'll get a few yes, a few no, but mostly silence. So it will be nothing but a waste of my time.

My USPA membership lapsed.... I'm thinking I am going to let it stay lapsed.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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baronn

Perhaps I missed that earlier post Mike. My bad. So yer saying, the instructor had no USPA license, no rating and just showed up and started tossing drogues? How cude anyone do that? How wude they even know what to do? Something is just not adding up here. He had performed a jump prior because from what I understand he packed this rig and failed to set the drogue. Bad but, not the end of the world since it collapses when released anyway. It wude sure be nice to get the full and straight story here.



TI in question was a foreign national. Not sure of his 'home' experience.

Tandem course was conducted by an I/E who had had his ratings pulled.
And was apparently a bit shorter than standard.

This incident was what prompted a close look at TI training and I/E credentials, and resulted in retraining a whole lot of TIs (some had additional training and kept going, some had to go back and take the entire course again).

It was a rather unusual situation of the drogue tangling with the bridle and being choked off, not being left uncocked.

Most of the 'full and straight story is here:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4810236;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

As is often the case when Lodi is involved, there's more than 'just a bit' of contention and argument. Some assertions that are far from accurate (in both directions) and a lot of missing posts.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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No question that this was an unusual situation in so many respects. The questions I have are:
Did the TI have the required 3 yrs in the sport and 500 jumps? If he did, then did he take a Tandem course by what he thought was a legit TI and pass it? Did he then have a USPA issued tandem cert? You can get into how the examiner had his rating revoked but, how did any of these people that paid him know that? Clearly they didn't. You can paint all these scenarios about how you can buy yer own rig and blah, blah, blah but, that didn't happen here. Besides that's pretty ridiculous. Pete Swan saw the video, did what I believe is an accurate assessment of what happened and posted it here. He stated that the drogue was packed uncocked and the TI never made an attempt to release it. Had he done so, this wouldn't have happened. Instead he went straight to the reserve. The TI mishandled a simple mistake and it cost 2 lives. To say it couldn't happen to anyone that took a course with a still rated examiner is complete hogwash. Hell it just recently happened in an almost identical scenario and the camera person came in and saved them both. No, this was not handled like it has been at other member DZ's that have had a tandem fatality in the past. Change the story here as many times as you like but, you simply can't change history.

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baronn

Pete Swan saw the video, did what I believe is an accurate assessment of what happened and posted it here. He stated that the drogue was packed uncocked and the TI never made an attempt to release it. Had he done so, this wouldn't have happened. Instead he went straight to the reserve. The TI mishandled a simple mistake and it cost 2 lives. To say it couldn't happen to anyone that took a course with a still rated examiner is complete hogwash. Hell it just recently happened in an almost identical scenario and the camera person came in and saved them both. No, this was not handled like it has been at other member DZ's that have had a tandem fatality in the past. Change the story here as many times as you like but, you simply can't change history.



Go to post 150 on page 6. Pete's detailed description of the video and analysis of the incident.

Quote

...an inexperienced TI had a rare problem, (fouled drogue in tow, the handle and reinforcing patch was caught in a half hitch of bridle)...

...When I did the gear inspection with the FAA the main container was still closed, the release pin was routed correctly and the drogue was cocked...



I won't entirely disagree with the idea that a properly trained TI could still make this mistake. There have been a couple more tandem incidents that ended up being addressable situations, had the TI reacted properly.

But the investigation showed that the I/E with the pulled ratings had shortened the class some, and much of what was shorted was EPs for unusual situations.

My understanding (as always, I may be wrong on this) is that the TIs that were allowed to keep their ratings with only additional training (the ones not required to take the whole rating class over) were primarily given EP training.

After most of the info came out, Mike Wadkins was at my DZ. During a weather hold, he gathered the TIs together and they did an improptu EP seminar. I sat off to the side and watched a very thorough discussion/quiz session on tandem EPs. I already knew that a tandem was a complex and specialized jump. This just reinforced that.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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The accident led to USPA discovering the false licenses. Do you think they should have ignored what they found because the accident could have happened to anyone?

I have never suggested that. There we many mistakes made here. My position has always been and always will be that this situation was handled poorly IMO. The USPA knew they yanked this TI's rating. They also knew where his home DZ was. And the new TI's they were issuing ratings to. Now, do I expect that it was their job to do this? No, I don't but, it was a mistake that was made. There's plenty of blame to go around on this and how these things almost always turn into some kind of bitch fest between a few people never ceases to amaze me. Do the grown up thing and don't go there. Disagree with my opinion? Great. We all have 1. Make yer point and validate with facts. No need to start making up things that were never said.

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