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baronn

BOD Meeting July 2018

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The overtone of the entire clip was one of connecting the USPA and safety together - as if you couldn't have one without the other.



Of course you can have one without the other. It's just harder.

If you want to "go it alone" and design your own training programs, competitions, BSR's, guidelines for demos/high altitude jumps, get recognition from the FAA etc great. It's very hard to do, and I know of only one organization to have done it - the WSA, which was the product of Roger Nelson and DD Bartley. (And I don't think they ever got USPA recognition.) I can think of perhaps a handful of other people in the country capable of doing something like that.

However, for the average DZO, he is going to end up with a DZ (and body of skydivers who jump there) that is a lot safer overall by following USPA syllabi, rules, recommendations and progressions.

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chuckakers

***I guess the USA teams now have FULL sponsorship... You know since you think you can afford to give away 125K dollars of USPA funds to other pet projects...



USPA provides no funding to US Teams. The teams are funded by investment income from the US Parachute Team Trust Fund, which receives nothing from USPA.

Please look at the charter for the PCA, later turned USPA.

"To select and train the United States Parachute Team for World Competition"
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Ron

******I guess the USA teams now have FULL sponsorship... You know since you think you can afford to give away 125K dollars of USPA funds to other pet projects...



USPA provides no funding to US Teams. The teams are funded by investment income from the US Parachute Team Trust Fund, which receives nothing from USPA.

Please look at the charter for the PCA, later turned USPA.

"To select and train the United States Parachute Team for World Competition"

As a director and member of the competition committee, I am quite familiar with our charter.

Note that it says nothing about funding. USPA does not provide money for team training or any team necessities. Our teams are funded through sponsorships, fundraisers, the trust fund, and out of pocket dollars.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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As a director and member of the competition committee, I am quite familiar with our charter.



Then I am surprised I had to quote it to you.

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Note that it says nothing about funding.



Notice it says TRAIN? You can try to explain it away, but it says TRAIN in plain English.... See attached.

You have a nice day.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

PCA:USPA.pdf

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Ron

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As a director and member of the competition committee, I am quite familiar with our charter.



Then I am surprised I had to quote it to you.

***Note that it says nothing about funding.



Notice it says TRAIN? You can try to explain it away, but it says TRAIN in plain English.... See attached.

You have a nice day.

Lol, Ron you didn't have to quote it to me. As I said, I am familiar with USPA's charter.

I'm not explaining anything away because there is nothing to explain away. You are stuck on the word "train" to mean that USPA funds that training. We do not. Not sure how many ways I need to say it - USPA provides NO funding to the US Parachute Team. If you question the accuracy of my statement, feel free to call Executive Director Ed Scott. I'm sure he will be glad to confirm what I am saying.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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billvon

>>Note that it says nothing about funding.

>Notice it says TRAIN?

Yes it does. Train != fund.



Well, while you are technically correct.... It does not say "fund"...Try to give an example of where providing training in skydiving does not require spending any money.

Tunnel? Money
Jumps? Money
Gear? Money
Get them a book on mental training? Buy the book or spend funds on an employee finding one for free, or copying it, etc.

So it does not say "fund"... It does say train and you will be hard pressed to help train several teams without spending any money.

BTW, It also does not say 'fund a museum.'
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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billvon

>>Note that it says nothing about funding.

>Notice it says TRAIN?

Yes it does. Train != fund.



Bill, I don't know the history so I can't speak to that. Maybe there was a time when USPA (PCA) paid for coaching, jumps, or other things for the team.

If any old-schoolers can chime in with FACTS on USPA's financial support of the team way back when, please do so. What I can say for sure is that USPA does NOT provide team funding in any way today.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Ron

***>>Note that it says nothing about funding.

>Notice it says TRAIN?

Yes it does. Train != fund.



Well, while you are technically correct.... It does not say "fund"...Try to give an example of where providing training in skydiving does not require spending any money.

Tunnel? Money
Jumps? Money
Gear? Money
Get them a book on mental training? Buy the book or spend funds on an employee finding one for free, or copying it, etc.

So it does not say "fund"... It does say train and you will be hard pressed to help train several teams without spending any money.

BTW, It also does not say 'fund a museum.'

I don't get where you're coming from on this. DZs and boogies offer load organizing. Many DZs offer coaching jumps. To even start skydiving you need first jump training and then the training that goes with whichever type of student program you choose. These are all forms of training but there's never any question of who will be paying for the jump tickets, and even the tickets of the coaches.

Bob Church

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>Try to give an example of where providing training in skydiving does not require
>spending any money.

The training I gave people in Tent 4 at Quincy.
The training I gave to people at water training courses in San Diego.

The training I got from Dan BC, Christy Frikken, John Eagle, Craig Girard, Mick Cottle, Dan Campos, Craig O'Brien, Hannah Betts, Mad John, Uli and Hammo.

I am amazed you have never considered the training you got for free - and would be amazed if you have never done the same for someone else.

>Tunnel? Money
>Jumps? Money
>Gear? Money

You pay for all of those yourself. That's not the same as training. It's just stuff you need to make that training worthwhile.

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The training I gave...



I didn’t know you traveled for free and got free hotel and registration. You may not have charged, but there was a cost and you paid it.

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List of notables that gave you training...



Well in examples like BC he is the manager of a DZ so it is his job to help and guide... And he gets paid for it. And the others if it was at an event that you PAID to be at, then they were getting compensation as well... P3 for example, you paid to be there and they were compensated to be there.

So YOU may not have paid, but that does not mean someone else didn’t pick up the tab.

And an individual giving free advice is not the same as a mandate from an organization to provide training.


I am actually surprised you don’t see that.... Actually, I am sure you do see it and just refuse to admit it.

You have a nice day.... This has devolved into all noise and no longer worth my time.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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As predictable as the sun coming up tomorrow morning, whenever someone can't really defend an un-defendable position, then the shaming starts. Really? Mike I always thought so much more of you as a person. Defend the decision as a good call and back it up. Listen to what is being said here. No members are backing this. Ya feel so strong about? Pay for it all yourself.

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>And an individual giving free advice is not the same as a mandate from an organization to
>provide training.

Well, let's see:

I've given free training, and have gotten a lot of free training myself
Director of the competition committee says they're not paying for it

I think it's safe to say that your concern is unfounded.

Doubly so, since you're not a member any more, and this is simply no longer your concern.

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Chair of the GM Program, Chuck Akers



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The group member pledge is a joke and has been since the inception of the GM program - as is the program itself. USPA is supposed to be an organization with the following purpose (from uspa.org):

The purpose of USPA is three-fold: to promote safe skydiving through training, licensing, and instructor qualification programs; to ensure skydiving’s rightful place on airports and in the airspace system, and to promote competition and record-setting programs.

I don't see a damn thing in there about supporting, regulating, guiding or otherwise getting into the business of DZ's.

The GM program should be scrapped where it stands.


Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX



Irony score 8?

What training does USPA provide the US parachute team?

Derek V

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Hooknswoop

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Chair of the GM Program, Chuck Akers



***The group member pledge is a joke and has been since the inception of the GM program - as is the program itself. USPA is supposed to be an organization with the following purpose (from uspa.org):

The purpose of USPA is three-fold: to promote safe skydiving through training, licensing, and instructor qualification programs; to ensure skydiving’s rightful place on airports and in the airspace system, and to promote competition and record-setting programs.

I don't see a damn thing in there about supporting, regulating, guiding or otherwise getting into the business of DZ's.

The GM program should be scrapped where it stands.


Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX



Irony score 8?

What training does USPA provide the US parachute team?

Derek V

No irony at all. You can't fix things from the outside, and since that post long ago there has been some teeth put into the program and the pledge. Is it perfect? Nope. Am I taking an active role in improving it. Yep. When did you say you are running for the board? You seem to have a lot of thoughts on how to do things better. Why not become part of the solution you insist upon?

As for your question, here's a possible answer. Years ago when the only competitions were style and accuracy, "coaches" were selected to work with our athletes to train them. I can't tell you if funding was ever provided to these coaches, but they were selected by USPA - presumably as part of the charter. The coach slot still exists and is sometimes filled, but is most often used as an assistant team manager slot. For the record, team managers are now selected by USPA and coaches are typically selected by team managers and approved by the committee. BTW, coaches are not paid for their efforts nor do they receive funding. I can't speak to how things were done years ago, but that's how it's done currently.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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No irony at all. You can't fix things from the outside, and since that post long ago there has been some teeth put into the program and the pledge. Is it perfect? Nope. Am I taking an active role in improving it. Yep. When did you say you are running for the board? You seem to have a lot of thoughts on how to do things better. Why not become part of the solution you insist upon?



The old, “If you don’t like it, run for office argument”. I pay membership dues. I pay to have a voice. I am working within the system, expressing my opinion to USPA.

I haven’t seen any teeth being put into the GM program.

Has USPA changed it’s charter to include supporting regulating, guiding, or otherwise getting into the business of DZ’s?

The USPA selects the team manager. That is the training provided to the US parachute team?

I would support sending the $25,000 we sent the museum (their website still says they plan on opening the wind tunnel in 2018, no one seems to know when it will really open) to pay for training the US parachute team.

Derek V

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I haven’t seen any teeth being put into the GM program.



Me either... And I have looked. I am eagerly waiting for someone to answer what "teeth" have been put into the GM program.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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grimmie

...is not in accordance to the USPA's own mission statement.



The USPA constitution contains the following references:

The purposes for which USPA is formed are as follows: To encourage unity among all persons interested in skydiving...to promote and encourage the study and knowledge of skydiving among the membership and the public at large....to compile information regarding the science of skydiving and to edit, publish, and disseminate the same...
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Ron

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I haven’t seen any teeth being put into the GM program.



Me either... And I have looked. I am eagerly waiting for someone to answer what "teeth" have been put into the GM program.



In accordance with the USPA Governance Manual Section 1-6...

"2. To protect a member [including group members, emphasis added] who is wrongly accused and to protect the rights of all persons affected, members of the board of directors and USPA staff will refrain from discussing any matter relating to any alleged offense with any person not a party to the action and shall express no opinion nor make any statement concerning anything related to the alleged offense except as provided in Section 1-6. Any breach of confidentiality may be subject to disciplinary action under Section 1-6.4 B.9."
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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I didn’t know you traveled for free and got free hotel and registration. You may not have charged, but there was a cost and you paid it.


Yes. I paid it. Not the people I coached, not USPA.
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And the others if it was at an event that you PAID to be at, then they were getting compensation as well...


Nope. That's why I left out Kate Cooper, Tony Domenico, Pat McGowan, Chris Farina etc. The people I listed gave me free coaching (actually, some of them paid _me._)
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So YOU may not have paid, but that does not mean someone else didn’t pick up the tab.


Now you're starting to get it.

USPA has a charter to train the US team. It does not have a charter to pay for it. If USPA gets Dan BC to coach them then they've done their job per the charter. Someone has to pick up the tab - and in that case it would probably be BC, knowing him (and knowing past US teams.)

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Yes. I paid it. Not the people I coached, not USPA.



So you just argued my point. In the example of you giving "free" coaching, it was NOT free. There was a cost. In your example, YOU were the USPA. You provided coaching at no cost to the participants, but that was only because YOU covered that cost.

Or you could argue that the WFFC was the USPA and through paid participants (members) they were able to provide organizing. Again, not "free", someone paid a cost.

And as you claimed train != ‘fund’. The charter also does not say to fund a museum.

Like always... You have a nice day, but we are getting nowhere.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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In accordance with the USPA Governance Manual Section 1-6...



Both Hook and I didn't ask for specific examples, we asked for the "teeth" that is now in the GM program that you claim.

Maybe just quote the list of punishment actions that can be taken against GM DZ's. Surely just showing the membership what actions COULD be taken against a GMDZ is not in violation of 1-6.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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