The Island of Doctor Moreau

[winsor 186]

If someone decides that they are the reincarnation of a poodle and set about having surgery to reassign their species to correct the matter, I suppose that's their business.

I am certain that you could get a variety of qualified physicians to attest to their having Species Identification Disorder.

Passing laws to ensure that people referred to them in canine terms would certainly be in order.

There would, of course, be naysayers who would claim such an individual was as fucked up as a football bat, and that their species identity was purely delusional.

As long as said individual was housebroken (or at least paper trained), I'm fine with their lifestyle.

Similarly, people who choose to identify as another gender are free to do so. If vivisection to make their body match their self-image is what they choose, it's available (I know people who make a good living providing said service).

The problem I have with all of this is that I was never any good at make-believe. The whole "man gives birth" bit leaves me wondering if it's a joke when it turns out that the 'man' was born with a uterus and all.

It's okay to be polite, but feelings don't trump biology.


BSBD,

Winsor

[jakee 1,256]

You do remember doing this before, right?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wmw999 2,123]

Your post is descriptive of you; it only applies to your relationship with others, and does not describe them inherently.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[winsor 186]

wmw999

Your post is descriptive of you; it only applies to your relationship with others, and does not describe them inherently.

Wendy P.

Then my point was badly made.

I think it's fine that girls will be boys and boys will be girls (hi Lola!), and I think they should be left to their own devices. Having to wear pink triangles or yellow stars is equally vile.

'Affirmative action' is anathema to equality - you either have identical rights and responsibilities or you don't. The recent legislation penalizing address by the 'wrong' gender is an invitation to backlash. Demanding 'special treatment' is, ironically enough, insistence upon discrimination. Also, be careful what you ask for, considering what was considered 'special treatment' at one time or another (like when triangles and stars were in vogue).

What became of Bruce Jenner and Bradley Manning is along the lines of putting lipstick on a pig and calling it Betty Sue. At least with Divine and RuPaul it is largely a schtick (I know, transvestite and transsexual are different to those to whom it matters).

An archaeologist will take one look at a skeleton and identify it as male or female, and how that person 'identified' in life is largely academic.

All too often a cause celebre rounds out to being bullshit, and I submit that this is one of those instances.


BSBD,

Winsor

[jakee 1,256]

Quote

The recent legislation penalizing address by the 'wrong' gender

Huh?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[ryoder 1,387]

winsor

At least with Divine and RuPaul it is largely a schtick (I know, transvestite and transsexual are different to those to whom it matters).

So what about Eddie Izzard?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[quade 3]

winsor

As long as said individual was housebroken (or at least paper trained), I'm fine with their lifestyle.

Your words say, yes. However, I think your post says something a little different. I think you're still at least a little conflicted on the subject or you wouldn't have posted at all.

Instead, you went to some small effort to make a post about it. Do you think you're trying to convince us, or yourself?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[winsor 186]

quade

***As long as said individual was housebroken (or at least paper trained), I'm fine with their lifestyle.

Your words say, yes. However, I think your post says something a little different. I think you're still at least a little conflicted on the subject or you wouldn't have posted at all.

Instead, you went to some small effort to make a post about it. Do you think you're trying to convince us, or yourself?

No.

[gowlerk 1,914]

People who are born with a pelvis and soft tissue that does not match the way they feel about their gender are in a very bad place. It behooves all of us to show some compassion to them.

I agree that surgery can never really solve their problem. But if they decide to go that route it's best to be supportive. When famous people go through this sort of thing publicly I also wonder about their motives. But I also wonder about the motives of all kinds attention grabbing celebs.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[wmw999 2,123]

No, your point was not poorly made, I just don't think it's a valid point. The physical pieces are part of being a male or female, but not the only one. Any more than the ability to procreate makes one a real father or mother. The roles are more complex than a single-axis judgment by some outside person.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ryoder 1,387]

There is PET scan evidence that there are physical differences between gay and straight people, so I would expect transgender people would also show differences:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/study-says-brains-of-gay/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[winsor 186]

gowlerk

People who are born with a pelvis and soft tissue that does not match the way they feel about their gender are in a very bad place. It behooves all of us to show some compassion to them.

I agree that surgery can never really solve their problem. But if they decide to go that route it's best to be supportive. When famous people go through this sort of thing publicly I also wonder about their motives. But I also wonder about the motives of all kinds attention grabbing celebs.

In a sense I agree with you, but I have encountered a variety of cases where it is not at all cut and dried. It is not at all uncommon for someone to regret the surgical modification when it is too late to do anything about it. The sentiment is often that the expectation that this would resolve the issues the individual faced did not pan out.

Another case that colors my perspective had to do with one of our Flight Attendants. Some male FAs were straight, some not, and it was largely no big deal. I did not know any pilots who appeared to care one way or another.

Having said that, one of our male FAs wanted to become female. The only issue was that the union made sure that our medical coverage covered it, but other procedures that were deemed more pressing were not covered. The moment I have to pay for something, I reserve the right to have an opinion on the matter.

If a coworker is traumatized by the fact that they have been playing golf for years, and despite all the practice and coaching they have had they still can't break par, I suppose that is a shame for them. I am basically indifferent, and really don't want to hear about it in any great detail, since it really does not affect me (so long as it does not impact their work performance). I am not a golfophobe or some such nonsense, I simply find the whole thing boring.

When a law requires me to adhere to verbiage that is deemed polite by standards with which I may or man not agree, then I have a problem. It is the Orwellian nature of prescribed Newspeak that gives me pause.

Who consenting adults do or do not sleep with, and quite what they do behind closed doors, is none of my goddamned business. Beyond providing for tunes by Aerosmith, the Kinks et al., the whole gender bending thing is uninteresting. Making it a felony to guess wrong when addressing someone really annoys me.


BSBD,

Winsor

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi winsor,

Quote

The moment I have to pay for something, I reserve the right to have an opinion on the matter.

You did not have to pay for it. You could have quit your job & moved on.

This is the old argument about unions, etc.

You had a choice; you made a choice, which included rules such as you are objecting to, when you accepted employment.

C'est la vie,

Jerry Baumchen

[winsor 186]

JerryBaumchen

Hi winsor,

Quote

The moment I have to pay for something, I reserve the right to have an opinion on the matter.

You did not have to pay for it. You could have quit your job & moved on.

This is, of course, precisely what I did.

[skinnay 0]

It takes a special kind of low class to title this thread "The Island of Doctor Moreau". You act like the tiny amount of money you put into a health plan is some validation of your opinion. I don't blame you for being sheltered, but maybe it would serve society better if you could find other ways to feel better about yourself on a weekend.

[jakee 1,256]

winsor

When a law requires me to adhere to verbiage that is deemed polite by standards with which I may or man not agree, then I have a problem. It is the Orwellian nature of prescribed Newspeak that gives me pause.

I think you've linked to the wrong law. That one does nothing of the sort.

Unless you're so preoccupied with keeping tabs on queer folk that you've jumped to the wrong conclusions, of course.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wolfriverjoe 1,341]

Isn't the "What if they decide to marry monkeys?" argument one of the ones that the bigots used against interracial and gay marriages?
Kinda puts your "poodle" comment in perspective.

Also, you (as do many who find trans people offensive) seem to think that there are only two genders: man and woman.

Not true. While rare, there are hermaphrodites (both at the same time) and angrogens (neither).

There are a battery of tests for prospective trans people. If they don't pass them, they don't get the surgery.

I don't doubt that there are some out there who have regrets. Or that some found that the surgery didn't "fix" all their problems.
It's a very complex issue, compounded by the psychological damage often suffered as the result of trying to (or being forced to) live a life that wasn't theirs.

And as far as paying for it goes, welcome to the real world. There's lots of stuff that I have to pay my share for (either through insurance or taxes) that I find truly reprehensible.

Most of which costs a lot, lot more than a few reassignment surgeries.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[normiss 622]

It seems that some of the people who 'chose' to be cisgendered look down on those that didn't.
Seems rather self-righteous and judgmental to me as I'll never understand the obsession with what others do with their own bodies by those that feel they have the right to judge you based on your bedroom and bathroom behavior.

I could care less who you sleep with nor where you relieve your yourself.

[Rick 67]

gowlerk

People who are born with a pelvis and soft tissue that does not match the way they feel about their gender are in a very bad place. It behooves all of us to show some compassion to them.

I agree that surgery can never really solve their problem. But if they decide to go that route it's best to be supportive. When famous people go through this sort of thing publicly I also wonder about their motives. But I also wonder about the motives of all kinds attention grabbing celebs.

I see this 2 ways. Either they want the media attention, or they want to let other people that may have the same issues know that they are not alone, and there are options for them.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[wolfriverjoe 1,341]

Rick

***People who are born with a pelvis and soft tissue that does not match the way they feel about their gender are in a very bad place. It behooves all of us to show some compassion to them.

I agree that surgery can never really solve their problem. But if they decide to go that route it's best to be supportive. When famous people go through this sort of thing publicly I also wonder about their motives. But I also wonder about the motives of all kinds attention grabbing celebs.

I see this 2 ways. Either they want the media attention, or they want to let other people that may have the same issues know that they are not alone, and there are options for them.

Could also be that they didn't have a choice. Take Jenner. The tabloids were noting "odd" behavior for some time before the reality of the situation became public.
Admittedly, the 'public lifestyle' was a choice he made, but sometimes there's no 'going private' once the tabloid press and paparazzi get their hooks in. I'm not sure that she could have kept that sort of thing out of the press, once the transformation became obvious.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Rick 67]

wolfriverjoe

******People who are born with a pelvis and soft tissue that does not match the way they feel about their gender are in a very bad place. It behooves all of us to show some compassion to them.

I agree that surgery can never really solve their problem. But if they decide to go that route it's best to be supportive. When famous people go through this sort of thing publicly I also wonder about their motives. But I also wonder about the motives of all kinds attention grabbing celebs.

I see this 2 ways. Either they want the media attention, or they want to let other people that may have the same issues know that they are not alone, and there are options for them.

Could also be that they didn't have a choice. Take Jenner. The tabloids were noting "odd" behavior for some time before the reality of the situation became public.
Admittedly, the 'public lifestyle' was a choice he made, but sometimes there's no 'going private' once the tabloid press and paparazzi get their hooks in. I'm not sure that she could have kept that sort of thing out of the press, once the transformation became obvious.

good point either way it can't be easy going public with it

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[wolfriverjoe 1,341]

Rick

*********People who are born with a pelvis and soft tissue that does not match the way they feel about their gender are in a very bad place. It behooves all of us to show some compassion to them.

I agree that surgery can never really solve their problem. But if they decide to go that route it's best to be supportive. When famous people go through this sort of thing publicly I also wonder about their motives. But I also wonder about the motives of all kinds attention grabbing celebs.

I see this 2 ways. Either they want the media attention, or they want to let other people that may have the same issues know that they are not alone, and there are options for them.

Could also be that they didn't have a choice. Take Jenner. The tabloids were noting "odd" behavior for some time before the reality of the situation became public.
Admittedly, the 'public lifestyle' was a choice he made, but sometimes there's no 'going private' once the tabloid press and paparazzi get their hooks in. I'm not sure that she could have kept that sort of thing out of the press, once the transformation became obvious.

good point either way it can't be easy going public with it

No. It has to be extremely difficult to 'go public' with this sort of thing, regardless of the "celebrity status" of the individual.
Not unlike a homosexual "coming out".

In both cases, ridicule, abandonment by friends and family, hostility and outright hatred are very common.

And think about it.

Given how hard it is, and the very real (not just potential) consequences of 'going public' with either homosexuality or transsexuality, how hard must it be to live with it a secret?

Lots of people (and a lot of them are teens) commit suicide because either the idea of living the lie or the idea of coming out seems worse than dying.

I have a friend whose daughter came out as a lesbian. Her dad has been dead for a few years, and his entire family disowned and abandoned her.
It was very hard on her, but she decided to be true to herself no matter what. She's a good kid (turned 21 last spring, but she'll always be a 'kid' to me), going to be married next month. Says a lot more about them than it does about her.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 2,400]

>Isn't the "What if they decide to marry monkeys?" argument one of the ones that
>the bigots used against interracial and gay marriages?

Yep. The reductio ad absurdum gets pretty offensive when it devolves to comparing blacks to monkeys, or trans people to dogs, or gays to sheep.

There is another depressingly common theme in the fights that all minorities have had over the years - the "I have nothing against them as long as I don't have to accept them in any way" argument.

"Some of my best friends are Jews. But when they start getting access to my money, that's when it stops being OK. You know Jews and money."

"I have nothing against blacks; I'm not a racist. But when they try to start marrying white women, you bet I am going to have an issue."

"Look, gays have the same rights I have, and I have no problem with that. I can marry women and so can they. If they want more rights than me, well, I am going to have a problem with that."

[jakee 1,256]

I'm just wondering if Winsor is planning on coming back to this thread at all, considering that his (flimsy in any case) justification for starting the thread appears to be total bullshit...

Maybe he'll just be back again in another 6 months to start a third "I don't care about trans people but hasn't everyone had enough of trans people?" thread.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,400]

On 6/24/2017 at 6:37 AM, winsor said:

An archaeologist will take one look at a skeleton and identify it as male or female, and how that person 'identified' in life is largely academic.

All too often a cause celebre rounds out to being bullshit, and I submit that this is one of those instances.

 

So going back to this -

Funny thing - sometimes archaeologists will take one look at a skeleton and identify it as anatomically male, and then test it later with more advanced tests and decide it was genetically female.

Sounds like even archaeologists are woke!  Well, the intelligent ones, at least. 

https://apnews.com/article/spain-tomb-woman-copper-age-72994db20f84a035862fb46dcddccc6e