So, my thread has been blocked...

[mistercwood 287]

Two things:

StreetScooby

When over 50% of crime is perpetuated by a small fraction of what amounts to 13% of the population, you better believe the cops are going to have to deal with that on a daily basis when policing "those" neighborhoods.

Where does this 50% come from? Is it arrests or convictions? What is the breakdown of the 50% in terms of crime? Misdemeanours or Felonies? Violent vs non-violent?

StreetScooby

Of over 500 death-by-cops this year, 125 were blacks. Over half those killed were whites.

You keep quoting that study, when the numbers are actually against you. If blacks make up 13% of the population, the death-by-cop numbers should be half that for them. For the given stats to be acceptable, your 50% figure up top would have to be composed entirely of crimes that deserved and resulted in a lethal outcome for the perp.

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[StreetScooby 5]

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and I'm glad you've reeled your emotions in a little more and manged to continue some discussion

Only due to the near-infinite patience of the moderators here.

Yes, I am pissed off, badly. Obama has blood on his hands, IMO, and he continues down this path that is absolutely based on false narratives (to use a polite phrase). "Hands up, dont' shoot". Didn't fucking happen. Obama and his cohorts haven't even tried to correct that one instance. And it continues, unabated.

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...because you're just going to get frustrated with why "they" won't change when it looks so easy to you.

What we've been doing for over 50 years now isn't working. It was identified as such in 1965. Something has to change. And it's not going to change with the current conversation that's being had in America right now.

We are all engines of karma

[Bolas 5]

mistercwood

Two things:

***When over 50% of crime is perpetuated by a small fraction of what amounts to 13% of the population, you better believe the cops are going to have to deal with that on a daily basis when policing "those" neighborhoods.

Where does this 50% come from? Is it arrests or convictions? What is the breakdown of the 50% in terms of crime? Misdemeanours or Felonies? Violent vs non-violent?

StreetScooby

Of over 500 death-by-cops this year, 125 were blacks. Over half those killed were whites.

You keep quoting that study, when the numbers are actually against you. If blacks make up 13% of the population, the death-by-cop numbers should be half that for them. For the given stats to be acceptable, your 50% figure up top would have to be composed entirely of crimes that deserved and resulted in a lethal outcome for the perp.

This is yet another reason why all these race based statistics are useless.

For one, people in less population dense areas also tend to have less police per person and definitely per mile so would have less police interactions.

Second, the racial stats of a population have no correlation with the racial stats of police interactions. This is sort of like saying "25% of dogs are Labs so around 25% of reported dog bites should be Labs"

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[StreetScooby 5]

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Where does this 50% come from?

That particular number, murders in the US. That vast majority of that is "socio-challenged blacks" on "socio-challenged blacks".

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If blacks make up 13% of the population, the death-by-cop numbers should be half that for them.

That's the whole issue here. "Socio-challenged blacks" make up a small fraction of the 13% of the population that is black in America. Yet they account for well over half of crimes committed in America. That's the issue here. It's not like whites and hispanics are committing crimes in proportion to their population numbers. It's the "socio-challenged blacks" that are doing so, and far in excess of their numbers in society. Thus, the greater emphasis on those folks by LEOs. And, it's the black neighborhoods that need the LEOs to have that focus.

We are all engines of karma

[wmw999 2,148]

Your seeming complete unwillingness to accept that it's not all about evil black dudes killing and committing mayhem without any reason, and that everything would be just fine if they'd just listen to you is robbing you of any chance of actually communicating with anyone who isn't part of the echo chamber.

Black people still get the shit end of a lot of sticks in America. You can't take their experiences and feelings and just say "that doesn't matter because I said so." Well, you can, but refer back to my first paragraph.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mistercwood 287]

I'm sorry but Wendy's right, and this is what I was getting at it my first response to you - it's not enough to look at what's happening now and where you want to go, you need to understand WHY things are the way they are now and how they got there. All of the layers, and there's a LOT of them. And you won't do it from your own perspective alone.

I mean, shit, I'm a straight white cis gendered male in his mid-30's living in a 1st world western nation. The entire fucking world I move in is built almost exclusively for my benefit. I don't know your full background, but I'll bet it's damn similar to mine right? We have to work harder to see the world as someone who doesn't and didn't ever have that advantage.

To get a REAL solution here is going to take a hell of a lot more effort from YOU (and anyone else looking for change) than I think you realise. I still wish you luck.

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[StreetScooby 5]

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Black people still get the shit end of a lot of sticks in America. You can't take their experiences and feelings and just say "that doesn't matter because I said so."

I haven't been talking about black people. Let me repeat that, I have not been talking about black people.

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Well, you can, but refer back to my first paragraph.

If you want to get in that line, it's a long one, and you'll have to go to the end.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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We have to work harder to see the world as someone who doesn't and didn't ever have that advantage.

Work harder how? I think you've at least got the correct phrase in the conversation - work harder. But that applies to everyone.

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To get a REAL solution here is going to take a hell of a lot more effort from YOU (and anyone else looking for change) than I think you realise.

How so? I'm really curious to see you dive a bit deeper into that statement, for me, please.

We are all engines of karma

[billvon 2,434]

>So, you don't know of a better way to phrase this conversation. That's what I hear
>you saying.

Then you have heard incorrectly. I am saying exactly one thing, which is that you can't use racial slurs. Period.

[mistercwood 287]

I'll be making some assumptions along the way here as I don't know you, but am presuming my summation of our backgrounds before was roughly applicable (I figure you're older by at least a decade but that's a guess). You'll need to let me know if I'm assuming too much at any point.

StreetScooby

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We have to work harder to see the world as someone who doesn't and didn't ever have that advantage.

Work harder how? I think you've at least got the correct phrase in the conversation - work harder. But that applies to everyone.

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To get a REAL solution here is going to take a hell of a lot more effort from YOU (and anyone else looking for change) than I think you realise.

How so? I'm really curious to see you dive a bit deeper into that statement, for me, please.

"Work harder" applies two ways here - you're not wrong that hard work should be a serious component in the, let's call it a recovery, that you're hoping for, from those that are recovering. You've seen it yourself, you had a solid example and expectation set for you from childhood. You understand and clearly place a high value on personal responsibility. But you've been shown that from that start - work hard, do the right thing, and you'll get somewhere.

How do you propose someone in their 20's who's never had that guidance in their life suddenly unlearn everything they've been taught to prioritise and start doing things your way?

I know from earlier posts you don't feel that black people are as disadvantaged today as they once were - and on the surface that's mostly right. But these are recent changes, culturally speaking. The culture you're seeing and hating wasn't birthed recently and it didn't happen in a vacuum. Bill's question about the chicken and the egg was spot on.

When I say you need to put in some serious effort, I mean you will need to work at seeing what came before and really understanding the causes - "just work harder" and "stay as a nuclear family" won't address that, it's too shallow for an issue this big. Work at seeing that taking your background - stretching back for generations of people that were classed as "better than" others and getting all the perks of that - and then comparing it to people whose great grandparents (or even just grandparents) had to use a different water fountain than yours did, is completely ludicrous.

Just saying "be better, we did it so you can too" to get this recovery happening won't remotely cut it. You need to actively create an environment where being better is the most attractive option, and one that is truly open to all. And I mean more attractive to someone who doesn't share your values yet. THAT is the hard part.

The thing you're railing against is a ridiculously complex problem that will take generations to fix. I can think of some basic components (better education availability, cheaper healthcare, family assistance/training(?), drug offence reform) that might form part of the solution. Implementing them and everything else that would be needed is above my pay grade.

I still appreciate that you're trying to have this discussion. I just don't think you necessarily appreciate the problem itself as well as you could. Hell even I'm just spit-balling here for the most part. I'm not black, how can I really know?

ETA: Sorry btw for the long delay in responding (I don't bother with many of the bigger conversations here), had to do a few real world things. Also my baby sister has started her tattoo apprenticeship so I went over to her shop to offer a chunk of leg for practise and only just got back...

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[kallend 1,647]

StreetScooby

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It was America's original sin

You do realize the entire world was involved in the slave trade for hundreds of years, right?

The entire world did not, however, keep (and rape) slaves while simultaneously writing

"We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tkhayes 140]

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Last warning. You can't call blacks niggers (or ni*gers, or n-gers, or any other variation on that particular slur.) From the rules:

I would object myself to that policy, whatever it is. There is a huge difference when using a word for hatred and discrimination and for example, using that word to point out the absurdity/stupidity/bias/reality of the hate and discrimination.

1st amendment rights, and there is a time and place for EVERY word in the english language, regardless of how much it offends someone. DZ is a private forum on a private server doing private things - I get it, but I wish the policy would get modified.

[RonD1120 58]

I have been casually following this thread and decided to throw in my experience with a subset of the inner-city Negro population.

For a major portion of my professional life I was a counselor and program manager for federally funded outpatient and residential programs for substance abuse treatment. The majority of our clients were Negro. The majority were born into federally funded single parent homes. The majority had violent tendencies. The majority of the tech level employees were Negro. The majority of the middle and upper management level employees were Caucasian.

These programs are run on progressive liberal concepts and principles. These programs advocated support for progressive liberal politicians. These politicians support and increase the flow of federal funds.

These programs supporting this population are an industry. Outside of these programs are the support services including law enforcement, legal services and medical services.

Without the inner-city Negro subculture the economy of that city would suffer. It desires, requires and fights for federal dollars.

Competition is so strong that various federally funded programs hire grant writing professionals to gain an edge.

IMO, the problem will grow worse. Too many liberal Caucasians are making too much money in this industry to let it change for the better.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[winsor 187]

billvon

>If they are born struggling just to have basic survival needs met, why are they
>having children?

Evolutionary pressures. It's what we evolved to do, and it is our "default" behavior.

Would it be logical to do after a dispassionate consideration of available resources, desired quality of life and a judgment of what would be best for one's (hypothetical) children? No. But that's logic vs. basic behavioral drives.

Since this is a given, my recommended policy of "if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em" seems quite reasonable.

A condition of receiving public assistance is REVERSIBLE sterilization. If, during your childbearing years, you can afford the reversal procedure, you can go ahead and have kids.

If you can't afford the procedure, you sure as hell can't afford kids.

People in poverty having kids they can't afford simply perpetuates the process. It was apparent to me in the '60s that, so long as the next generation of poverty-stricken people is underwritten, the cycle of poverty is never-ending.

I would like to live and work in an environment where ethnicity was not a factor. I bridle against people who take offense at having a big deal made of their ethnicity, but reserve the right to make a big deal about their ethnicity - you can't have it both ways.

When people use racist logic to make accusations of racism, they have lost their audience. Much though people bitch about stereotypes, there is often too solid a basis for them.

For example, during a blackout in Manhattan, in our neighborhood people were out with flashlights directing traffic and there was ZERO crime. None.

Other neighborhoods looked like a war zone in the morning.

Was it a matter of socioeconomic status or ethnicity? I suppose it was more the former than the latter, but the latter was used enough as an excuse that it could not be overlooked.

The general ebb and flow of the discussion goes something like this:

"I prefer to treat people as individuals, without regard to ethnicity."

"You just be saying that because you be a racist honky motherfucker."

"I want nothing to do with anyone displaying any hint of the attitude you just expressed."



One does not need to "hate" anything to disagree with behavior patterns that are largely displayed by one group or another.

Stating opposition to puppy dogs being used for food is not voicing antipathy toward particular cultures that do so.

Disliking rioters does not mean that one hates particular student groups or sports fans that get out of hand.

Having to mince words regarding racial groups is racist, and I find it offensive.

[DanG 1]

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Too many liberal Caucasians are making too much money in this industry to let it change for the better.

Change "liberal" to "conservative" and you're describing the prison industry.

Hmm, maybe there's something to this idea that a lot of white people make a lot of money by screwing over brown people.

Nah. It is must all be the brown people's fault.

- Dan G

[Coreeece 2]

Jeeze, what a fucking mess.

It's no wonder we continue to ignore this problem and say, fuck it - let them deal with it.

Scoob has a point - the black community is going to have to fix this, because it's so obvious that we aren't gonna do a damn thing about it except throw more food stamps at the them.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[rehmwa 2]

DanG

Change "liberal" to "conservative" and you're describing the prison industry.

This is a freaking fantastic and insightful post for sure. (seriously)
the fact that it's pithy is super bonus points.

The whole point is that the current social strategy is a type of prison is the foundation of the entire thread.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,434]

>There is a huge difference when using a word for hatred and discrimination and for
>example, using that word to point out the absurdity/stupidity/bias/reality of the hate
>and discrimination.

Agreed. And in this case he specifically used it to refer to lazy, uncivilized blacks who have too many kids.

[turtlespeed 212]

Coreeece

Jeeze, what a fucking mess.

It's no wonder we continue to ignore this problem and say, fuck it - let them deal with it.

Scoob has a point - the black community is going to have to fix this, because it's so obvious that we aren't gonna do a damn thing about it except throw more food stamps at the them.

I never really considered . . . I love it when I feel my eyes open just a bit more.

I bet Walmart has a specific lobby group set up and their agenda is to repress some people so they can keep raking in all the welfare money spent.

So @Scooby - This issue is from the top down. So that is where we need to start. BUT we also need to make massive changes to the lower middle class in the socio-economically stunted areas.

We need to advantage those that are just below and just above the poverty level.

Hear me out before you jump: I believe in this course of action, because I'm my experience - seeing someone succeed is the best teaching tool. It has been for me. Hopefully it will encourage those that have worked to overcome the disabilities inherent in their economic scale, to not give up so easily.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Coreeece 2]

turtlespeed

I bet Walmart has a specific lobby group set up and their agenda is to repress some people so they can keep raking in all the welfare money spent.

Ya, their own employees. Walmart pays them like shit, and then we're forced to pick up the slack and pay their employees to shop at Walmart.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[StreetScooby 5]

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How do you propose someone in their 20's who's never had that guidance in their life suddenly unlearn everything they've been taught to prioritise and start doing things your way?

Realistically, it's pretty late if they're in their 20's. It needs to start much sooner than that. Right now in New York City, many of the public schools for blacks (and hispanics) are major failure factories. There are those parents who are trying very hard to get into charter schools. The waiting lists for these schools are very long. Yet, NYC government continues to enable bad teachers in bad schools, completely ignoring the crisis this is. And, somehow these people keep getting elected by the very votes from these people who are doomed to a meager existence because of said failure factories. It is a vicious cycle.

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and hating

I'm not hating anything here. There have been no personal attacks in my replies, nor have I advocated violence. That does nothing good, and ends up doing much wrong.

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wasn't birthed recently and it didn't happen in a vacuum

Current government policies have exacerbated this problem for 50 years. There is something seriously wrong here, and it's time for my country to have a hard conversation about this.

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I mean you will need to work at seeing what came before and really understanding the causes

Dude, I've been around this topic for a long time. Yes, horrible things have been done to blacks in the past. That can't be seen as an enabler for the ongoing current issues with the small percentage of blacks who continue to self-inflict damage on themselves and those around them.

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and then comparing it to people whose great grandparents (or even just grandparents) had to use a different water fountain than yours did, is completely ludicrous

Drinking out of a different water fountain is not what has caused the current environment where it's ok for BLM to call for dead cops, and lo and behold, cops are being hunted now while the Obama administration says they have legitimate concerns.

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You need to actively create an environment where being better is the most attractive option, and one that is truly open to all.

Sounds peachy keen. There's already more than enough social services for this element of the population, and it's going in the wrong direction. There are many active neighborhood associations (especially churches), county level associations, state level associations, and federal level associations. It's going in the wrong direction.

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I still appreciate that you're trying to have this discussion.

Someway, somehow, a different set of expectations needs to be set.

I appreciate the reasoned reply you shared here.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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The entire world did not, however, keep (and rape) slaves while simultaneously writing

"We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

Yes, because at that time the rest of the world was keeping and raping without even noting their existence. At the time this was written, it was inconceivable to consider blacks (and other indentured servants) human. Thank goodness we have evolved beyond that.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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I get it, but I wish the policy would get modified.

So, you don't think this is a conversation that needs to be had in our country?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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IMO, the problem will grow worse. Too many liberal Caucasians are making too much money in this industry to let it change for the better.

That is a truly frightening, sobering statement.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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A condition of receiving public assistance is REVERSIBLE sterilization.

Ah, that's too much, IMO.

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I would like to live and work in an environment where ethnicity was not a factor. I bridle against people who take offense at having a big deal made of their ethnicity, but reserve the right to make a big deal about their ethnicity - you can't have it both ways.

Yes, one can make the reasonable observation that there are folks that don't want to be judged by the color of their skin, then spend quite a bit of time talking about the color of their skin.

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Having to mince words regarding racial groups is racist, and I find it offensive.

That seems to be where we are. And we can't have the conversation our country needs to have with that philosophy.

We are all engines of karma