Islam...the religion of peace?

[Suslique 0]

RonD1120

I still think racist is the wrong word because it is being applied to nations, religious factions, etc.

Quote

rac·ist
noun
1. a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
synonyms: racial bigot, racialist, xenophobe, chauvinist, supremacist
"he was exposed as a racist"
(racially) discriminatory, racialist, prejudiced, bigoted
"a racist society"

adjective
1.having or showing the belief that a particular race is superior to another.
"we are investigating complaints about racist abuse at the club"

I guess popular usage determines correctness, similar to the use of empathetic for empathic. To me it sounds ignorant.

Xenophobic might be more suitable I guess

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[turtlespeed 212]

Isn't it interesting how polite and courteous everyone here is when they talk about religion now.

I wonder what hate and vitriol would be spewed if Ron started explaining portions of the Christian religions.

How ironic.

Is it because the person answering questions and explaining is a female, It seems now that just Christianity gets blasted here now?

Just an observation.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 622]

O:-)

[DanG 1]

If Suslique starts behaving like Ron, then maybe people will be less nice to her. So far, she's thoughtful and polite, so she gets the same back.

Wonder why people are rude to Ron?

- Dan G

[bigbearfng 16]

How bout prejudiced against a group/thing instead of racist......

For example: I am prejudiced against any color/race/religion etc. dirtbags!

[billvon 2,434]

>Is it because the person answering questions and explaining is a female, It seems now
>that just Christianity gets blasted here now?

Nope. It's because she is expressing an opinion in a thoughtful, intelligent way. Sometimes such attitudes are returned.

[champu 1]

I agree that psychopaths would likely find alternate means to justify atrocities and manipulate others into joining them for want of religion (and history provides us examples of this), but the same can be said of any positive effects religions have.

Religious texts are attempts by people to codify in a combination of direct and indirect language what they felt was right, what they felt was wrong, what they felt was true, and how they felt people should live at the time of their writing. They are snapshots. They are not owed "special" status by anyone.

Sound ideas and teachings are just that, and why practices that work do and those that don't don't should be taught with multi-sourced historical examples. Anything that doesn't go down without sprinkling "God said so" on it shouldn't be swallowed.

[Coreeece 2]

Quote

the image of a muslim for average american is so dehumanised (thank you mass media and “faux” news) that it makes perfectly acceptable to express racism openly, since “muslims are not really people, that are just bunch of crazy psychopaths”.

I don't really watch fox news, but when I do it's usually when visiting my soon to be atheist mother-in-law...come to think of it, the majority of the time I see fox news is when visiting non-religious types. Apparently christians don't hold a monopoly on conservatism.

Anyway, I just think Fox is reporting on muslims who actually are crazy psychopaths. Perhaps this just gives the impression that they are broad-stroking? Do we actually watch Fox news enough to make an accurate determination? When I do watch it, I've noticed that there tends to be a guest with a counterview. I can't really say the same when watching MSNBC with maybe the exception of Morning Joe. Personally, I wouldn't recommend watching either station.

Interestingly enough tho, it seems that even you may have allowed them to skew your view of all us ignorant americans who "have never seen a “real” muslim"

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Islam is not violent, it doesn’t propagate violence and if you are seeing that in Quran you may need to read it with commentary, that will explain to you the historical facts about that period but honestly i don’t see it anywhere, maybe because i have a wider knowledge about islamic history.

"Christianity is not violent, it doesn’t propagate violence and if you are seeing that in the Bible you may need to read it with commentary, that will explain to you the historical facts about that period but honestly i don’t see it anywhere, maybe because i have a wider knowledge about christian history."

Speakers corner in 3 - 2 - 1....

But seriously, nobody cares...because ultimately, people can certainly interpret it as if it actually does propagate violence...that's all the bigots care about.

Quote

i do blame my own “tribe” of muslims, however, for regressing back instead of going forward (no I’m not talking about modifying Islam, its as good as it is, I’m talking about sticking to islamic teachings instead of following tradition or your own selfish plans).

i personally think that the regression of muslim states is the result of people letting go the original islam. when they were sticking to original teachings everything was the opposite

We could say the same thing for christianity, but the argument that usually follows is - "that's just your interpretation of the text...why are you right and they are wrong?"

Quote

Marrying Aisha is bothering you? the real marriage occurred only after her puberty. and yes back in a day people were considered an adult once hitting puberty.

I've always figured as much...I've heard some people lament on how Mohamed was some sick child molesting pedophile, but I never knew the text well enough to give an argument.

I can say that Marry was probably around 12 when she gave birth to the Son of God, Jesus Christ who takes away the sin of the world.

Quote

We, people who live in Eastern Hemisphere are closer to all the diversity of nations and religions and traditions. Come over, get a ticket, if you are too scared to go to muslim country, visit London its practically the same :D :D on a serious note, there are islamic conventions held in US all the time, go visit, ask a question, we don’t bite!

Or they can just visit detroit, lol....

I've grown up with muslims my whole life....it wasn't really a big deal in the 80's and 90's in Detroit/Hamtramck. Nobody ever complained about the call to prayer nor did we live in fear. It was just normal life...My polock great grandparents immigrated here, then we made some room for the Catholic Albanians dealing with that atheist nutter Hoxha, and then more room for a handful of Arabs. Life was good growing up in the 80's- 90's...then the dream went to shit.

911 just fucked everything up...we thought we were safe, but now we didn't know who to trust. Kids used to look up to our government officials, but now they are a just a laughing stock of incompetent self-serving assholes...maybe they always where, but at least us kids had the placebo of hope. Growing up we thought war was becoming obsolete...and after the aerial success of the first gulf war we had hope that it was gone for good...but all it really did was desensitize us and get us ready for the bullshit we see today...History repeating itself - God damn it...

...anyway, I'm starting to ramble. So after 911 there was an influx of more arab and european muslims and people started to take notice. There were petty squabbles about the call to prayer and the new immigrants not taking care of their property....no big deal.

The bigger issue seemed/seems to be with politically discontent African American ex-cons who've converted to Islam in prison and become leaders who've been subject to FBI raids...these raids don't necessarily foil terror plots directly, but disband illegal activity that funds terrorism....

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

Suslique

p.p.s. my own mother experienced discrimination and racism back in a day. she was called a "dirty jew" on numerous occasions while living in Moscow (despite having a muslim father, her looks are very much jewish). and now if she ever visits US and stumbles upon racists they will call her a dirty muslim?

Immigrants from piratically every nation have been discriminated against in this country's history...Jews, Italians, Polocks...whatever....some people just have thicker skin I guess.

Some Polocks had to change their names just to get a job. Many Polish families would forbid speaking the polish language and various customs even in their own homes...the idea was that they came here to take advantage of the benefits this new world had to offer, so best they assimilate and show some respect for the opportunity.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

turtlespeed

Isn't it interesting how polite and courteous everyone here is when they talk about religion now.

Well, except for winsor...at least he's consistent and stands by his convictions...

You won't find him bashing christianity in one thread and then kissing muslim ass in another all in the name of political correctness...

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[RonD1120 58]

DanG

Wonder why people are rude to Ron?

It started back in 2009 with tkhayes and jakee and then many others piled on. I decided to fight back. I've learned a lot in the process.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Coreeece 2]

RonD1120

***

Wonder why people are rude to Ron?

It started back in 2009 with tkhayes and jakee and then many others piled on. I decided to fight back. I've learned a lot in the process.

You can learn a lot in those discussions...many times I find myself going down rabbit trails and studying other aspects of our faith that have nothing to do with the discussion I was initially trying to address...

Overall, I think political views are more polarizing, and since you hold those views so strongly, people are more apt to use your faith against you...

I have to admit tho, religious discussions haven't seemed to be so nasty lately...

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Suslique 0]

[url]
Coreeece

My opinion is not formed by TV, I don't even have a TV, I intentionally ignore news as well, unless I hear something catching my attention and I research myself on the internet. My opinion re xenophobia and islamophobia particularly originates from social networks, forums and via my friends and family living in States.

BTW u asked somewhere if there's a Jesus in Quran. Yes, we believe in all prophets and messengers and all books sent before Quran with the only difference is that we believe that they were heavily altered by people, hence the final book -Quran was sent on Earth, and God promised to keep it unchanged till the day of Judgement. In case you are interested

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[winsor 187]

Suslique

Winsor

You are misleading people in two points:

1. The proof of Islam is not in Islam being monolithic, it was revealed by Muhammad in the prophecy long before, that there will be over 70 sects in Islam. The proof of Islam being true religion for us is Quran, it is considered verbatim word of Allah and zero changes have been made to it.

2. Satanic verses - there was a poem by Salman Rushdie. Another mentioning of so called satanic verse in a hadith, well that hadith was proven to be fabricated. There is a science of hadith in Islam that investigates tons of fabricated hadith from authentic ones.

You may despise Islam and Muslims but please don't put your own opinion of it as an ultimate truth. Thanks

This is the process of picking flyshit out of pepper that I was trying to avoid.

Let us start out with the principle that religion=bullshit. If there are 1,000 religions, and a maximum of one has validity, that rounds out to 100% likelihood that any particular one is nonsense.

If you consider a model of religion as psycho-cybernetic malware, it makes sense. In computation it is difficult to design a virus resistant platform, and the human brain is no different.

Dawkins gives a good account of the mechanism from a different standpoint, and suggests a survival model for the susceptibility to such psychological viruses. Some people are naturally more resistant to such infections than others.

Like Stuxnet, mental malware can be used for military purposes. Peoples who remained undefeated militarily have been subjugated by infection by the appropriate virulent religion; Ireland and Afghanistan come to mind.

To get into a discussion of, say, the nuances of Scientology with Tom Cruise or his wapiti is pointless. If someone does not notice at the outset that the whole thing is nonsense coming and going, there is no use in pointing out to them the glaring inconsistencies in their stance.

Where I stand on Islam gets to its roots. While Siddhartha and Lao Tzu, for example, were contemplative and peaceful, Muhammad was a psychopathic pervert. I have deep misgivings about anyone who could possibly revere such an evil piece of shit.

I hope that clears things up a little.


BSBD,

Winsor

[Amazon 7]

It would be good for all who profess to follow their faith to remember that Muslims, Christians and Jews are all "People of the Book" and are all of Abrahamic origins and be respectful of one another.
The problem for all of them comes historically when the more extreme of each group have demanded others to convert or die. It is always easier for people to apply the us versus them and them are evil because they do not believe.... such as we have seen for Daesh or ISIL.

Respect for others is often difficult... it is a burden I struggle with when I see the hypocrisy inherent in those who choose to take one part of their book and use it to the exclusion of the rest of their book.

[Guest]

winsor

***Winsor

You are misleading people in two points:

1. The proof of Islam is not in Islam being monolithic, it was revealed by Muhammad in the prophecy long before, that there will be over 70 sects in Islam. The proof of Islam being true religion for us is Quran, it is considered verbatim word of Allah and zero changes have been made to it.

2. Satanic verses - there was a poem by Salman Rushdie. Another mentioning of so called satanic verse in a hadith, well that hadith was proven to be fabricated. There is a science of hadith in Islam that investigates tons of fabricated hadith from authentic ones.

You may despise Islam and Muslims but please don't put your own opinion of it as an ultimate truth. Thanks

This is the process of picking flyshit out of pepper that I was trying to avoid.

Let us start out with the principle that religion=bullshit. If there are 1,000 religions, and a maximum of one has validity, that rounds out to 100% likelihood that any particular one is nonsense.

If you consider a model of religion as psycho-cybernetic malware, it makes sense. In computation it is difficult to design a virus resistant platform, and the human brain is no different.

Dawkins gives a good account of the mechanism from a different standpoint, and suggests a survival model for the susceptibility to such psychological viruses. Some people are naturally more resistant to such infections than others.

Like Stuxnet, mental malware can be used for military purposes. Peoples who remained undefeated militarily have been subjugated by infection by the appropriate virulent religion; Ireland and Afghanistan come to mind.

To get into a discussion of, say, the nuances of Scientology with Tom Cruise or his wapiti is pointless. If someone does not notice at the outset that the whole thing is nonsense coming and going, there is no use in pointing out to them the glaring inconsistencies in their stance.

Where I stand on Islam gets to its roots. While Siddhartha and Lao Tzu, for example, were contemplative and peaceful, Muhammad was a psychopathic pervert. I have deep misgivings about anyone who could possibly revere such an evil piece of shit.

I hope that clears things up a little.


BSBD,

Winsor

Brilliant. Just brilliant, Winsor. The concept of religion-as-virus was interestingly expressed in Neal Stephenson's SF novel "Snow Crash" (which was introduced to me by a skydiving brother and which I strongly recommend). It discusses the idea in depth.

In some of what I have been reading over the past few years, even muslims are revolted by what is taking place in that world. Little by little, some self-examination is taking place in a culture which displaces introspection and responsibility, and makes excuses for unending atrocity. One of the major things preventing (or slowing) reform is the decentralization of islam; i.e., any dude can put a turban on his head and declare himself a religious leader (edit to add: or the "Mahdi". this keeps coming up again and again, like some nut on a streetcorner calling himself Jesus) with absolutely no credentials at all (e.g., al-Baghdadi. Let's hope he's gotten his in the most painful way possible). There is no central authority in islam, so there can never be any equivalent to the Council of Nicea, or a reformation figure akin to Luther. There are LOTS of Islamic leaders who are openly condemning all the violence and insanity at the risk of their lives, and they can and do get killed for it, but that seldom makes the news in the West.

By and large, however, it appears that many muslims, especially in the dirt-poor and repressed countries ruled by secular or religious thugs, are obsessed with the past and focus on this seemingly magical, unicorns-and-rainbows era of Caliphate, when the actual truth is ugly in the extreme. It's a homegrown monster and it has its basis in the fundamental tenets of the cult itself, and NOT in the West. Those who blame Christianity for this are misguided, and sad.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[winsor 187]

Amazon

It would be good for all who profess to follow their faith to remember that Muslims, Christians and Jews are all "People of the Book" and are all of Abrahamic origins and be respectful of one another.
The problem for all of them comes historically when the more extreme of each group have demanded others to convert or die. It is always easier for people to apply the us versus them and them are evil because they do not believe.... such as we have seen for Daesh or ISIL.

Respect for others is often difficult... it is a burden I struggle with when I see the hypocrisy inherent in those who choose to take one part of their book and use it to the exclusion of the rest of their book.

Nope, the 'People of the Book' are the Children of Israel (Jacob). This is literal, not figurative.

Semetic peoples, such as Hebrews and Arabs, are Abrahamic. It is a matter of bloodline, not religious affiliation. Note that the vast majority of Muslims are NOT semites (Persians, Indonesians, sub-Saharan Africans, et al.).

It is the Universal Religions that use the Bronze Age traditions of one very dysfunctional family (the aforementioned Children of Israel) that are into conversion - with or without the threat of death.

As far as the dysfunctional family goes, you are either one of the Tribe or you are not. Convert? Nah, bugger off.

I respect rattlesnakes, and generally leave them alone. Same goes with charismatic megafauna.

The guy who decided he could get along with Alaskan Brown Bears by being buddies with them did just fine - until they ate him. Danny Pearl thought he could show respect for Muslims and expect the same in return, which worked until it was time to behead him.

It's like the old joke: "You bit me!"

"What did you expect? You knew I was a snake!"


BSBD,

Winsor

[wmw999 2,148]

Quote

many muslims,people, especially in the dirt-poor and repressed countries ruled by secular or religious thugs, are obsessed with the past and focus on this seemingly magical, unicorns-and-rainbows era of Caliphate,glorious past times,

Fixed it for you. This isn't only Muslims, it pretty much applies to any poor and dispossessed people ruled by thugs. Unless they're so beat down that they're completely cowed, but that doesn't last long. There's always a next generation with energy.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Guest]

wmw999

Quote

many muslims,people, especially in the dirt-poor and repressed countries ruled by secular or religious thugs, are obsessed with the past and focus on this seemingly magical, unicorns-and-rainbows era of Caliphate,glorious past times,

Fixed it for you. This isn't only Muslims, it pretty much applies to any poor and dispossessed people ruled by thugs. Unless they're so beat down that they're completely cowed, but that doesn't last long. There's always a next generation with energy.

Wendy P.

Yes, but they'll be exposed to the mind disease at a very early age, and will never learn to think for themselves... so it perpetuates. See North Korea.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[rehmwa 2]

Coreeece

I can say that Marry was probably around 12 when she gave birth to the Son of God, Jesus Christ who takes away the sin of the world..

I'll get so burned for this -

so confirming common grounds in major religions -
1 - Christianity (God) and Islam (Mohammed) have pedaphiles - what other religions?

add to list as we learn

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Suslique 0]

rehmwa

***I can say that Marry was probably around 12 when she gave birth to the Son of God, Jesus Christ who takes away the sin of the world..

I'll get so burned for this -

so confirming common grounds in major religions -
1 - Christianity (God) and Islam (Mohammed) have pedaphiles - what other religions?

add to list as we learn

rehmwa

Alexander the Great was only 18 when he lead his warriors to his first victory, so that means he became eligible to take part in battles much earlier than that, probably after puberty.

puberty meant adulthood whether we like it or not. times changed, people changed. only few centuries ago women were becoming wives and mothers MUCH earlier than they do today

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[Suslique 0]

wmw999

Quote

many muslims,people, especially in the dirt-poor and repressed countries ruled by secular or religious thugs, are obsessed with the past and focus on this seemingly magical, unicorns-and-rainbows era of Caliphate,glorious past times,

Fixed it for you. This isn't only Muslims, it pretty much applies to any poor and dispossessed people ruled by thugs. Unless they're so beat down that they're completely cowed, but that doesn't last long. There's always a next generation with energy.


Wendy P.

there is a thing called transgenerational trauma. look at all nations and ethnic minorities that suffered from colonial oppression, slavery, endless wars, none of them can fully recover from the trauma caused by the oppressor. even now in the oh so glorious 21 century. so blaming the victim that he is not "firstwordly" enough is simply not fair. what Islam gives to Palestinians, Afghans, Iraqis, muslims of Rohingya, muslims of Central African Republic, Syria, etc ? it gives them hope, it tells them that this life is temporary, have 'sabr' (patience), pray to your God and you will be among those in Paradise. majority is just like that, its suffering, praying and having 'sabr'. of course there are those who chose way of violence, its HUMAN thing, like i said numerous times. and some just go crazy, is it even surprising ?
Palestine http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/360976/slide_360976_4043519_free.jpg

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[rehmwa 2]

Suslique

rehmwa

Alexander the Great was only 18 when he lead his warriors to his first victory, so that means he became eligible to take part in battles much earlier than that, probably after puberty.

puberty meant adulthood whether we like it or not. times changed, people changed. only few centuries ago women were becoming wives and mothers MUCH earlier than they do today

agreed - that was so tongue in cheek and poking at various certain someones by using today's standards instead of those from then....

but you'll get a feel for our personalities here if you stick around (hope you do)..I'm here mostly for my entertainment.

But seriously the truly faithful religious types are inwardly strong and this stuff slides right off - those that get a bit "outraged", well, they need to be poked frequently. Hyper sensitive types tend to indicate people with weak faith, not strong.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Suslique

there is a thing called transgenerational trauma. look at all nations and ethnic minorities that suffered from colonial oppression, slavery, endless wars, none of them can fully recover from the trauma caused by the oppressor. even now in the oh so glorious 21 century. so blaming the victim that he is not "firstwordly" enough is simply not fair. what Islam gives to Palestinians, Afghans, Iraqis, muslims of Rohingya, muslims of Central African Republic, Syria, etc ? it gives them hope, it tells them that this life is temporary, have 'sabr' (patience), pray to your God and you will be among those in Paradise. majority is just like that, its suffering, praying and having 'sabr'. of course there are those who chose way of violence, its HUMAN thing, like i said numerous times. and some just go crazy, is it even surprising ?
Palestine http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/360976/slide_360976_4043519_free.jpg

this is a function of most all of the world's great religions

but it begs the question - is it real? or is it a survival mechanism on the large scale? (I think the real question is whether is matters or not if the results serve a function).

still - it's a glaring opening for those that abuse these things for power. or for those that use it to rationalize evil acts

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Suslique 0]

rehmwa

***there is a thing called transgenerational trauma. look at all nations and ethnic minorities that suffered from colonial oppression, slavery, endless wars, none of them can fully recover from the trauma caused by the oppressor. even now in the oh so glorious 21 century. so blaming the victim that he is not "firstwordly" enough is simply not fair. what Islam gives to Palestinians, Afghans, Iraqis, muslims of Rohingya, muslims of Central African Republic, Syria, etc ? it gives them hope, it tells them that this life is temporary, have 'sabr' (patience), pray to your God and you will be among those in Paradise. majority is just like that, its suffering, praying and having 'sabr'. of course there are those who chose way of violence, its HUMAN thing, like i said numerous times. and some just go crazy, is it even surprising ?
Palestine http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/360976/slide_360976_4043519_free.jpg

this is a function of most all of the world's great religions

but it begs the question - is it real? or is it a survival mechanism on the large scale? (I think the real question is whether is matters or not if the results serve a function).

still - it's a glaring opening for those that abuse these things for power. or for those that use it to rationalize evil acts

Real or not if you are genuinely curious I guess you'll have to find it out yourself. I will tell you that it is real and someone else will tell you that its a psychopathic manic disorder :) Its all in Quran, there's podcast of tafseer of the Quran made by Bayyinah university, they show the real beauty of Arabic language, listen to that if you ever want to. Nouman Ali Khan is the master of everything linguistic.

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones