grue 1 #51 March 5, 2015 airdvrIn an all-volunteer armed forces why would an Iraq War resistor need asylum in Canada? When you sign up to be an instrument of defense, and become an instrument of aggression? That'd be my guess, anywaycavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #52 March 5, 2015 grue become an instrument of aggression? is that like a bagpipe? or an oboe? pretty sure a banjo fits the description ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,427 #53 March 5, 2015 >1. There are too many illegals in country and more coming every day. Why are there too many? How many is too many? I don't think the problem is that there are too many (we are, after all, a nation of immigrants) the problem is that they are considered illegal. Fix that and you fix the problem. >Seems to me the only sticking point to changing the system is what to do with >the illegals who are already here. We can grant them some sort of path to >citizenship but until we can control the entry points that only adds more >incentive for illegal entry. You have to close the barn door first then figure out >what to do about the horses. How about you open the doors and let the horses roam? We don't need to grant them a new path to citizenship - we only need to make sure they are not breaking laws. Let anyone in who wants to work. Biometric scan at the border, and if they don't have a record, let them in. Withhold at the maximum rate (35%?) and give them their refund when they go back to their home country, via our embassies. Or let them get a green card and file like any other resident. Or let them pursue citizenship if they want, while they are here working and paying taxes like everyone else. What happens then? Most people walk across the border. It's easy, and bus lines run there. The few criminals try to cross on foot. They are now much easier to spot and stop because there are so few of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #54 March 5, 2015 turtlespeed***>Because if you follow the letter of the law, his gains and the taxes were illegally procured. No, they weren't. The IRS agrees - being an illegal alien does not exempt you from the requirement from paying taxes. Nor is paying your employees illegal if you are an illegal alien. Nor is sending in your payroll taxes. Ok, so a person that is legally not allowed to own a gun, shoots someone in obvious self defense . . . Is that now legal? guy that is Illegally practicing medicine saves a life, was his work now leagal? A person obtains a fraudulent and fake law license, and saves a guy from death row, is the act now legal? A drug dealer claims his income and pays taxes on it, is that legal now too? If you are here illegally in this country, logic seems that anything you do is now illegal. Logic. Actually it does make sense when you step back far enough. The law isn't written in such a way that a qualifying factor for a person to participate in the tax system be that said person acquire a job legally. If a person is paid above the minimum threshold, the person must file a tax return. The IRS doesn't communicate with INS about persons filing returns, and that's probably for the best for many reasons, not the least of which being privacy and also knowing if they did communicate, it would dramatically increase the complexity of an already overcomplex system, which would cost taxpayers (you, me, and the folks people are trying to run out of the country alike) more money out of our paychecks. I know it's popular to hate on those filthy brown folk who are streaming over borders and stealing our jobs, but I'm not convinced it's as big of a deal as certain groups make it out to be. Interestingly, I know that I frequently go off on people for trying to attribute things to certain parties, but I can't help myself here. Before I do, don't for a moment think that because I'm asking this, I'm in favor of any other party's platform: If part of the modern Republican platform allegedly is to take a hands-off approach to the minimum wage since the free market will solve the problem, why is the party apparently opposed to migrants doing the work at the wages the free market employer is willing to pay, if the existing populations aren't willing to do that work? Job is worth $7.25/hr to employer, who considers it basic unskilled labor and thus minimum wage. Nobody in the area will do the work for $7.25/hr. The job remains open for months. It's an unskilled job so it's not eligible for an H1B worker. Frank, from another country will do the work for $7.25hr. In fact, Frank will do the work for $5 if he's paid cash. Who is the loser if Frank does the work for $7.25? Who is the loser if Frank does the work for $5 cash?cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #55 March 5, 2015 rehmwa*** become an instrument of aggression? is that like a bagpipe? or an oboe? Clarinet.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,427 #56 March 5, 2015 >Ok, so a person that is legally not allowed to own a gun, shoots someone in >obvious self defense . . . Is that now legal? ?? No. He should get charged with illegal gun ownership, not murder. And he should still pay his taxes even if he is "illegal." And he should still obey the remaining gun laws even if he is "illegal." >guy that is Illegally practicing medicine saves a life, was his work now leagal? ?? No. He should get charged with practicing medicine illegally, but the result of his work is not illegal. And he should still obey the remaining laws even if he is "illegal." >A drug dealer claims his income and pays taxes on it, is that legal now too? Yes. If he is legally selling drugs and paying taxes on it that is 100% legal. If he is illegally selling drugs, but is paying taxes on his income, then he cannot be arrested for income tax evasion. He, of course, still can be arrested for illegally selling drugs. >If you are here illegally in this country, logic seems that anything you do is now illegal. No. And you just listed three example where doing something illegal does NOT mean that everything you do is illegal. Simple logic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #57 March 5, 2015 grue****** become an instrument of aggression? is that like a bagpipe? or an oboe? Clarinet. Skin flute.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #58 March 5, 2015 billvon>Ok, so a person that is legally not allowed to own a gun, shoots someone in >obvious self defense . . . Is that now legal? ?? No. He should get charged with illegal gun ownership, not murder. And he should still pay his taxes even if he is "illegal." And he should still obey the remaining gun laws even if he is "illegal." >guy that is Illegally practicing medicine saves a life, was his work now leagal? ?? No. He should get charged with practicing medicine illegally, but the result of his work is not illegal. And he should still obey the remaining laws even if he is "illegal." >A drug dealer claims his income and pays taxes on it, is that legal now too? Yes. If he is legally selling drugs and paying taxes on it that is 100% legal. If he is illegally selling drugs, but is paying taxes on his income, then he cannot be arrested for income tax evasion. He, of course, still can be arrested for illegally selling drugs. >If you are here illegally in this country, logic seems that anything you do is now illegal. No. And you just listed three example where doing something illegal does NOT mean that everything you do is illegal. Simple logic. Your answer makes no logical sense. If an person is here illegally, they are a criminal, nothing they do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default. If they were not here illegally, then they would have to do something illegal to be considered a criminal.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #59 March 5, 2015 billvon>guy that is Illegally practicing medicine saves a life, was his work now leagal? ?? No. He should get charged with practicing medicine illegally, but the result of his work is not illegal. I'm good with that. Much better than subsequently giving amnesty to the previous crime and now declaring him a doctor. Quote?? No. He should get charged with illegal gun ownership, not murder. And he should still pay his taxes even if he is "illegal." And he should still obey the remaining gun laws even if he is "illegal." Good - much better than giving him amnesty for the illegal gun ownership issue and now declaring him a legal gunsmith Quote>A drug dealer claims his income and pays taxes on it, is that legal now too? Yes. If he is legally selling drugs and paying taxes on it that is 100% legal. If he is illegally selling drugs, but is paying taxes on his income, then he cannot be arrested for income tax evasion. He, of course, still can be arrested for illegally selling drugs. also good - better than giving amnesty for being a drug dealer and now giving him a PhD in Pharmacy ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,427 #60 March 5, 2015 >If an person is here illegally, they are a criminal, nothing they do can >be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default. Let's see if your logic holds up - If a person gets a drunk driving conviction, they are a criminal, nothing they do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default. If a person underpays his taxes, they are a criminal, nothing they do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default. If a person drives an unregistered car, they are a criminal, nothing they can do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default. If all that makes "logical sense" to you then we are done here; you use a completely different system of logic than everyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #61 March 5, 2015 QuoteIn an all-volunteer armed forces why would an Iraq War resistor need asylum in Canada? It's all volunteer, but once you sign up, you can't quit until your tour is over. We had a guy in our Reserve unit who decided he didn't want to go to Afghanistan. While we spent 9 months in Afghanistan, he spent a year in military prison and got a dishonorable discharge. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #62 March 5, 2015 rehmwa*** become an instrument of aggression? is that like a bagpipe? or an oboe? pretty sure a banjo fits the descriptionI've heard "perfect pitch" described as throwing an accordion through a window and taking out the bagpipe player on the sidewalk outside. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #63 March 5, 2015 GeorgiaDon ****** become an instrument of aggression? is that like a bagpipe? or an oboe? pretty sure a banjo fits the descriptionI've heard "perfect pitch" described as throwing an accordion through a window and taking out the bagpipe player on the sidewalk outside. Don When I was at Microsoft back in the early '00s, my boss had a sign on the window next to his door that I'll never forget. It depicted a pair of police beating a man on the ground with truncheons, a smashed accordion next to him. It was captioned "Play an accordion, go to jail. It's the law."cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,427 #64 March 5, 2015 "Welcome to heaven, here's your harp." "Welcome to hell, here's your accordion." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #65 March 5, 2015 The sort of music they play in hell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU2hy0L5lgg Which, incidentally, is genius Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #66 March 5, 2015 Andy9o8***How do you legally pay taxes as an illegal alien with no ss number? Well, they pay the same taxes on typical consumer goods and services that most everybody else does. No, it's unlikely they pay income taxes on their pay for picking the produce on your plate, for which they almost certainly get paid below minimum wage. And if you're worried about how much in tax revenue goes uncollected for that, compare it to the fact that most of the income earned by the wealthiest people in the US is taxed not as ordinary income (like yours or mine), but at the bargain-basement 15% rate for capital gains. How much is lost by not taxing that shit as ordinary income? Look at the big picture. >"...bargain-basement 15% rate for capital gains." Capital gains are not a bad thing. I have a 401K account, Roth IRA, stocks, and some property. I hope to enjoy the same tax rate as those with larger assets than myself when I sell some of my property. I think the issue is, the wealthy in many cases are selling an asset which generates an income stream and having only to pay 15%. Millions of American's receive their income from wages or (Ordinary Income) which can be taxed at a higher rates. I don't see that being unfair, I see it as an opportunity to mirror the habits of the wealthy as best one can and reap the rewards. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,351 #67 March 5, 2015 airdvr ...Seems to me the only sticking point to changing the system is what to do with the illegals who are already here. We can grant them some sort of path to citizenship but until we can control the entry points that only adds more incentive for illegal entry. You have to close the barn door first then figure out what to do about the horses. The last time we had this conversation, I made a suggestion that some people actually liked. Grant those currently here illegally a path to legal residence, not citizenship. That is, if you came here illegally, you can never become a citizen. But there should be a path to legal residence. Make it cost something. Just pulling a number out of... somewhere, make it $5k. About the cost of a crappy used car. 6 months salary at minimum wage (not quite and gross income, but you get my point). And open the borders at least some more. Illegals are coming here because there is opportunity. They can find jobs that not only give them a living wage, but allow them to send money back to help their families. And there are more than a few jobs that illegals take because they are the only ones willing to take them. Slaughterhouses & meatpacking plants are the biggest that come to mind immediately."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #68 March 5, 2015 billvon>If an person is here illegally, they are a criminal, nothing they do can >be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default. Let's see if your logic holds up - If a person gets a drunk driving conviction, they are a criminal, nothing they do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default. If a person underpays his taxes, they are a criminal, nothing they do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default. If a person drives an unregistered car, they are a criminal, nothing they can do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default. If all that makes "logical sense" to you then we are done here; you use a completely different system of logic than everyone else. One thing does not equal the others. If you are here illegally, then that is where you have to start. But lets play your way . . . They are a criminal, nothing they do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default, even If a person doesn't get a drunk driving conviction, that way they are not criminalized for both illegal acts. They are a criminal, nothing they do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default, if they weren't here illegally, they would have a social security card and could legally pay their taxes, and wouldn't be both a tax evader AND an illegal alien. They are a criminal, nothing they can do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default, if they weren't here illegally, they would not be a criminal for being illegal AND a criminal for driving an unregistered car.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyBoyd 0 #69 March 6, 2015 turtlespeed***>If an person is here illegally, they are a criminal, nothing they do can >be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default. Let's see if your logic holds up - If a person gets a drunk driving conviction, they are a criminal, nothing they do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default. If a person underpays his taxes, they are a criminal, nothing they do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default. If a person drives an unregistered car, they are a criminal, nothing they can do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default. If all that makes "logical sense" to you then we are done here; you use a completely different system of logic than everyone else. One thing does not equal the others. If you are here illegally, then that is where you have to start. But lets play your way . . . They are a criminal, nothing they do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default, even If a person doesn't get a drunk driving conviction, that way they are not criminalized for both illegal acts. They are a criminal, nothing they do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default, if they weren't here illegally, they would have a social security card and could legally pay their taxes, and wouldn't be both a tax evader AND an illegal alien. They are a criminal, nothing they can do can be legal, until they rectify their illegal status, simply by default, if they weren't here illegally, they would not be a criminal for being illegal AND a criminal for driving an unregistered car. Many illegal immigrants have merely overstayed their visa. That isn't a crime, although it subjects them to deportation. Border jumping, though, is a crime. So many illegal immigrants are not criminals. That's logical flaw # 1. Logical flaw # 2 is asserting that everything the border jumping illegal immigrant does is a crime. It is not a crime for a border jumper to brush his teeth, to sit on a couch, to watch TV, to read a magazine, to walk down the street, to eat lunch..... These actions are not crimes regardless of who does them. They cannot be arrested or prosecuted for doing these things. Your assertion that everything an illegal immigrant does is a crime has two serious logical flaws. You are wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #70 March 6, 2015 Quote That isn't a crime, although it subjects them to deportation Since 1996 if you overstay your visa it is automatically canceled and you are considered an illegal. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyBoyd 0 #71 March 6, 2015 AnvilbrotherQuote That isn't a crime, although it subjects them to deportation Since 1996 if you overstay your visa it is automatically canceled and you are considered an illegal. Yes, correct. An individual who overstays his or her visa is an illegal immigrant and subject to deportation, which is a civil, not criminal, penalty. Overstaying a visa is not a crime. Border jumping is a crime. http://immigration.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000781 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #72 March 6, 2015 turtlespeed They are a criminal, nothing they do can be legal, . Factually INCORRECT. Which makes the rest of your claims moot.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #73 March 6, 2015 kallend*** They are a criminal, nothing they do can be legal, . Factually INCORRECT. Which makes the rest of your claims moot. The immigrant being illegal makes the argument mute.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boomerdog 0 #74 March 6, 2015 QuoteYou broke a law when you entered the country illegally. You broke a law when you remained here illegally. You broke a law by not paying taxes, or you broke a law by stealing someones identity to have a SS number. Very true. But when both sides of the aisles of the US House and Senate look the other way because one side has political contributors who need the cheap labor and the other side who sees a bonanza of votes then a pox be on both of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #75 March 6, 2015 BoomerdogQuoteYou broke a law when you entered the country illegally. You broke a law when you remained here illegally. You broke a law by not paying taxes, or you broke a law by stealing someones identity to have a SS number. Very true. But when both sides of the aisles of the US House and Senate look the other way because one side has political contributors who need the cheap labor and the other side who sees a bonanza of votes then a pox be on both of them. Are you implying that illegals can and do vote?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
