Trouble for Bridge Day - finger printing

[jumpwally 0]

This is just plain stupid,,,why don't the cops want to do this at the local big shopping Mall ? Why not at the train station or before any major leage sporting event ?..Smells like they want Bridge Day out,,,,sadly

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[CDRINF 1]

Boomerdog

How much money comes to Fayetteville, WV, the week leading up to and the Saturday of Bridge Day?

Assuming the report is true, the entire skydiving and base jumping communities should just opt out. Let the city government and the local business voice their displeasure to the LEO's.

Money talks and bullshit walks.

That's what we thought about both Quincy and Rantoul.

[Hooknswoop 19]

How would the mechanics of this actually work? Fingerprint during registration? Then the state police would need have the staffing and equipment (I have no idea what it takes) to enter the finger prints into the system and look for matches? How long does that take? Would the state police then go looking for people on the bridge at that point? How long would it take from the finger printing process until they could then start looking for the individual? How would they find them in the crowd?

Derek V

[normiss 622]

Electronic laser fingerprinting takes mere seconds.
Minutes to match.
I would expect it to be during a registration, meaning dirty record hit, no bridge pass.

I feel it's a violation of the 4th with no probable cause.

[Bolas 5]

normiss

Electronic laser fingerprinting takes mere seconds.
Minutes to match.
I would expect it to be during a registration, meaning dirty record hit, no bridge pass.

I feel it's a violation of the 4th with no probable cause.

For a system like that, they'd just run a scan to compare to prints to their database, not collect personal information?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[mcordell 2]

normiss

Electronic laser fingerprinting takes mere seconds.
Minutes to match.
I would expect it to be during a registration, meaning dirty record hit, no bridge pass.

I feel it's a violation of the 4th with no probable cause.

I'm certainly not taking the side of the state police in this issue as I do think the fingerprinting is unnecessary, but police don't need probable cause for many searches, only reasonable suspicion, and in this case they don't need either to justify it legally. I don't think they should be fingerprinting jumpers just to allow the jumping to occur but from a legal standpoint there is no rights violation. Promoting that argument distracts from the legitimate argument that it is simply unnecessary and if allowed to happen will keep jumpers from attending, impacting bridge day financially. That is the legitimate platform from which to stop the overreach of the state police in this instance.

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[JohnMitchell 14]

CDRINF

That's what we thought about both Quincy and Rantoul.

I honestly don't know the story on either of those. I thought it was just that the organizers decided not to do it anymore, not that the communities turned against jumping. Am I mistaken?

[Boomerdog 0]

Quote

That's what we thought about both Quincy and Rantoul.

I'd be very interested in hearing what happened in Quincy and Rantoul. I think many here would be interested as well.

Please.

[riggerrob 558]

jumpwally

This is just plain stupid,,,why don't the cops want to do this at the local big shopping Mall ? Why not at the train station or before any major leage sporting event ?..Smells like they want Bridge Day out,,,,sadly

...................................................................................

Patience,
They will get around to finger-printing everyone at the train station next year.

This reminds me of various ways in which I refused several rigging jobs.
It was the dog days of August. I had not enjoyed a day off in more weeks than I could remember. Tandem students were lined up back to the parking lot. I did not have time for PFF ground school or the patience to teach the first jump course. Every time I did a jump, the pile of un-packed reserves just got bigger. Sewing projects continued to pile up on the long table.
... so I quoted the high end of retail prices for rigging and refused to quote delivery times shorter than 3 weeks.

[dzswoop717 5]

Poor attendance ended the The World Freefall Convention. It became unproffitable when only about 1000 jumpers showed up at the last boogie.

[Boomerdog 0]

Thank you!

[Arvoitus 1]

dzswoop717

Poor attendance ended the The World Freefall Convention. It became unproffitable when only about 1000 jumpers showed up at the last boogie.

Jesus, must've been one helluva boogie if 1000 jumpers is low attendance. Hell my country doesn't even have that many licensed jumpers.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[78RATS 0]

The demise of Quincy started in the Flyboyz tent! Haha. Good times

Quote

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

• Quote

[normiss 622]

I thought it had something to do with the chief of police's daughter.

[Remster 24]

Damn yocals!

Remster

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

police don't need probable cause for many searches, only reasonable suspicion

You sound like you are LEO. - Not attacking - - - many of my own family are as well, and we oft have these sorts of conversations between us.

But...

That's not what the 4th amendment to the constitutions says... and it is LEO "attitude" (and quite frankly, legal system "allowances" for that attitude to prevail through LEO), that only just starts us down that slippery-slope, where it does become "accepted" that these constitutional rights - as written (not interpreted, then re-interpreted) - erode.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[skydived19006 4]

Just a brief comment, not to anyone in particular.

This reminds me of the cattle drive days in Kansas. The city of Abilene decided that they didn't want to to deal with the cowboys anymore, so told them not to come. Damned if they didn't come the next year, and didn't send their money either. The city of Abilene decided that they'd rather have the money and problems, but by that time it was too late.

Though, in this case, the rail had moved South as well, so they didn't have need to drive that far North regardless.

I'm sure that this is a pain for the State Police. And at a command level, they'd rather it go away. They don't give a shit about the revenue, it doesn't affect their pay. And remember, the main function of any bureaucracy is to protect and perpetuate that bureaucracy.

Short version: don't cut off your nose to spite your face

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[mcordell 2]

skydived19006

Short version: don't cut off your nose to spite your face

Unfortunately the state police seem to be trying to cut off someone else's nose. This is going to affect the local economy more severely than that of the state as a whole and the agency that seems to be trying to do it isn't local. I do think it's an over-reach.

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[mcordell 2]

Scrumpot

Quote

police don't need probable cause for many searches, only reasonable suspicion

You sound like you are LEO. - Not attacking - - - many of my own family are as well, and we oft have these sorts of conversations between us.

But...

That's not what the 4th amendment to the constitutions says... and it is LEO "attitude" (and quite frankly, legal system "allowances" for that attitude to prevail through LEO), that only just starts us down that slippery-slope, where it does become "accepted" that these constitutional rights - as written (not interpreted, then re-interpreted) - erode.

I will politely but firmly disagree. I am LEO and a legal instructor at that. My comment was a general comment, not specific to the fingerprinting at bridge day. I was stating that MANY searches do not require probable cause, only reasonable suspicion. This has been shown time and time again. It applies to basic searches such as identification of individuals under certain circumstances as well as general searches of a person for officer safety purposes. Without reviewing the thread I believe someone said something about searching without probable cause. I was simply pointing out that a good deal of searches conducted by law enforcement do not require probable cause, only reasonable suspicion. This is also the case in many states where dogs may sniff the exterior of a car on a traffic stop. The search is not considered to be overly invasive. Some states require that the stop duration not be extended solely for the purpose of a dog sniff of the exterior of the car in order for it to not be invasive. Kansas recently upheld that a car may be held for a reasonable amount of time outside the duration of a normal traffic stop specifically to allow for a dog to sniff. These types of searches do NOT require probable cause.

Intrusive searches such as reaching into your pockets and removing items, searching your car, and most protected, your home, all require probable cause. Again, my point is that the burden is not always probable cause and more than half of the searches conducted by LEOs require only reasonable suspicion. If you have further questions I would refer you to review Terry v. Ohio 1968.

Again none of that has to do with bridge day, just searches in general. If you refer back to my prior post I explained the legal basis (as far as I understand) for the authority of the state police to require jumpers to be subject to background checks. I still disagree so don't take any of my post as being supportive of the idea. I'm not.

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[normiss 622]

My fingerprints ARE my person.

I'm VERY thankful I know a very good and very successful defense attorney.
Hopefully I'll never have to pay my buddy for his services, but it's a requirement these days to have one handy.

[BillyVance 34]

skydived19006

Just a brief comment, not to anyone in particular.

This reminds me of the cattle drive days in Kansas. The city of Abilene decided that they didn't want to to deal with the cowboys anymore, so told them not to come. Damned if they didn't come the next year, and didn't send their money either. The city of Abilene decided that they'd rather have the money and problems, but by that time it was too late.

Though, in this case, the rail had moved South as well, so they didn't have need to drive that far North regardless.

I'm sure that this is a pain for the State Police. And at a command level, they'd rather it go away. They don't give a shit about the revenue, it doesn't affect their pay. And remember, the main function of any bureaucracy is to protect and perpetuate that bureaucracy.

Short version: don't cut off your nose to spite your face

Yeah, kind of like the city of Dublin, GA not wanting the St. Patrick's Day boogie in their town anymore even after several GREAT boogies, so the boogie took its ball and moved to Fitzgerald. Some time later Dublin wanted them back. The answer was more or less "HELL NO".

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[BillyVance 34]

Iago

******Just a brief comment, not to anyone in particular.

This reminds me of the cattle drive days in Kansas. The city of Abilene decided that they didn't want to to deal with the cowboys anymore, so told them not to come. Damned if they didn't come the next year, and didn't send their money either. The city of Abilene decided that they'd rather have the money and problems, but by that time it was too late.

Though, in this case, the rail had moved South as well, so they didn't have need to drive that far North regardless.

I'm sure that this is a pain for the State Police. And at a command level, they'd rather it go away. They don't give a shit about the revenue, it doesn't affect their pay. And remember, the main function of any bureaucracy is to protect and perpetuate that bureaucracy.

Short version: don't cut off your nose to spite your face

Yeah, kind of like the city of Dublin, GA not wanting the St. Patrick's Day boogie in their town anymore even after several GREAT boogies, so the boogie took its ball and moved to Fitzgerald. Some time later Dublin wanted them back. The answer was more or less "HELL NO".

Yeah, but Fitz is a better place anyways.

Damn skippy it is!

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[gunsmokex 1]

Pretty insane that the community would allow the police to do this and shut down a great a event. Do they fingerprint ever driver of every car and truck that goes over that bridge. I mean a bomb would be much easier carried in a base than a base rig anyways. And if thats what they are worried about why not just have a bombsniffing dog? I mean do the same thing they do at the airport as when you bring your rig on the plane. Fingerprints is just a way to get a base jumper database or stomp out the event, pure and simple.

[pchapman 262]

Back in '02 they did get all security conscious and did have extra security applied against the jumpers (while others couldn't take backpacks or similar large, closed containers onto the bridge). They had us lay the rigs down and let bomb sniffing dogs go over them. Can't recall offhand how many Bridge Days they did that; maybe only a year or two.

Sounds like the current situation isn't really about bridge security anyway.

[mcordell 2]

gunsmokex

Pretty insane that the community would allow the police to do this and shut down a great a event. Do they fingerprint ever driver of every car and truck that goes over that bridge. I mean a bomb would be much easier carried in a base than a base rig anyways. And if thats what they are worried about why not just have a bombsniffing dog? I mean do the same thing they do at the airport as when you bring your rig on the plane. Fingerprints is just a way to get a base jumper database or stomp out the event, pure and simple.

This would be pure speculation since I don't work for the state police there but, this day is specifically at risk of terrorism because of the enormous amount of pedestrians that could be killed at once if an explosive device were detonated on the bridge. They don't allow vehicle traffic on the bridge during bridge day. Yes it would be easier to blow up the bridge with a vehicle but the casualties would be limited on any other day of the year. Any time there is a large gathering of people in a small area there is a risk of terrorism. This is the world we live in.

I don't see how fingerprinting the jumpers would prevent that in any way unless they are using electronic fingerprint submission to check against a list of known terrorist threats in the AFIS database but that would require that the "terrorist" had either previously been printed or latent prints of a known individual entered into AFIS at some point. It's definitely not the most effective way to prevent terrorism. Yes your prints would be entered into AFIS if you are printed at bridge day, but there isn't a way to keep a list of base jumpers specifically. Your prints would be co-mingled with military, teachers, law enforcement, and every criminal that is printed. They could be compared to unidentified latent prints collected at crime scenes, but radio towers are not really a surface that prints can be lifted from so I highly doubt they are looking to solve base jumping offenses. You have to remember, everyone thinks we will lift prints when we respond to a call and we rarely do. It's not practical.

This is just a simple case of one agency trying to make it too difficult to jump at the event. I don't think there is any other hidden agenda other than trying to get jumpers not to come. Perhaps they think the requirement of fingerprinting will deter criminals from coming. Either way, the best argument to make to overcome this is to focus on the financial impact on the community if jumpers stop coming. I don't think it would be beneficial to go to the committee and argue this from a legal standpoint since it's not illegal.

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