12 yr old kid shot by police

[kallend 1,643]

Anvilbrother

"photographic" damn auto correct my bad. You fucking know what I was trying to say.

Autocorrect - the "dog ate my homework" of the 2010's.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

Actually no, because that's illegal.

Really, please do tell why it would be illegal for me to sit in a passenger seat and read a post while stopped at a redlight. I get motion sickness and do not read the paper or my phone while moving. I'll wait. Here I will even provide you with the laws for my state so you an go look for that particular offense.

http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?folder=75

Let me know when you found it so I can go turn myself in.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[jakee 1,257]

Quote

Really, please do tell why it would be illegal for me to sit in a passenger seat

Oh, right, passenger seat, of course. Good catch

Still not sure why you were blaming the phone instead of just saying you didn't read it properly, but it's really not important.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

Still not sure why you were blaming the phone instead of just saying you didn't read it properly, but it's really not important.

First I never blamed the phone I stated that I skimmed his post, Second its impolite to sit there and gawk at your iphone constantly while in the company of others is why I did not sit there and analyze every inch of everyone's post like you seem to have the free time to do..

And your right its not important so why the fuck did you bring it up in the first place....

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[GeorgiaDon 340]

I'm OK with Anvil's explanation that autocorrect improved his memory from merely photographic to photogenic. I've had autocorrect do worse things to my texts, though I generally proofread them before sending.

On the other hand:

Anvilbrother

The cops (swoopers) are also finding themselves in more traffic under canopy(street thugs). Basically surrounded by half blind jumpers weaving in and out of their swooping path. They are eventually going to hit someone no matter how much training and precautions they take.

Reasonable people don't swoop in the middle of unpredictable traffic. It sounds as if you are excusing swoopers (cops) spiraling and doing 360s in traffic and flying into/killing jumpers.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Anvilbrother 0]

True, but both are people not robots and are prone to human error.

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[wmw999 2,145]

Police are (or should be) more like a factory/demo team. They not only should be expert (yeah, I know they have to start somewhere, but run with me here a minute), but they are charged in part with representing their sponsor/authority in a positive manner whenever possible. Not always -- police have to police. But a demo team is more effective if they are positive, instead of being skygods, and I have a feeling that in the long run the police (as an institution) are more effective if they're positive, instead of being individual authority-mongers.

Basically, you're part of a team representing something, and not just an individual fulfilling an individual role. You have to combine the two.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Anvilbrother

True, but both are people not robots and are prone to human error.

Absolutely, we both agree on that. And we agree that it is not reasonable to expect people to make the correct decision (which is to say, the same decision we would come to if we had all the facts and none of the stress) all the time. I would even concede that the majority of the incidents that raise controversy are not the result of overt racism, though I do think more subtle forms of racism influence police reactions by increasing stress.

I think a lot of the problems we have been seeing are due to a police culture that increasingly prizes aggressive action, and puts officers into situations where split-second decisions have to be made. The case of the 12-year-old kid is a good example. We can also look at the increasing frequency of SWAT team tactics, where SWAT teams are even being used against suspected office pools where friends place small bets on sports games, and on parties where police suspect underage drinking.
Link: http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/%E2%80%9Cwhy_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_reading_a_book_the_new_warrior_cop_is_out_of_control/ [sorry I had to paste the link like this, but when I embed it, when you click on it it just goes to a generic Salon Magazine page not the actual article for some reason].

I think we have a problem when people in general fear the police, even people who are doing nothing wrong. I think we have a problem when it frequently seems that law enforcement has come to believe that the end justifies the means and that the constitution (particularly the 4th amendment) is just an impediment to be ignored when possible. [see the Salon article I linked for many examples, such as where police forces deliberately avoid the need to get a warrant by pretending to be enforcing business license regulations as a pretext to send SWAT teams to raid barber shops and nightclubs]. I think we have a problem when dead people, whose lethal crime was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, or a failure to react quickly enough to a command, are regarded as "justifiable" and "unfortunate collateral damage". I think we have a problem when the police are almost never held to account for anything they do, no matter how egregious. At worst a lawsuit may result in money paid to families of victims of police excesses, but that money is paid by taxpayers (=us) and never impacts the wallets of police departments or individual police officers.

I think we have a problem when at least some police no longer regard themselves as part of the community, but rather as the lords and masters, the "sheep-dogs" whose role it is to keep the "sheep" in line (to reference an earlier thread). Not only does this attitude breed contempt for our basic civil rights, it encourages police departments to do things such as become a kleptocracy, using sketchy civil forfeiture laws to help themselves to the lawful property of innocent citizens.

I think these things, and I'm a well educated upper middle class white guy. I can well imagine that people who are less advantaged are even more skeptical of the "good intentions" of the police.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[ryoder 1,394]

Medical examiner rules it a homicide: http://wgntv.com/2014/12/12/death-of-12-year-old-tamir-rice-ruled-a-homicide-medical-examiner-says/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

ryoder

Medical examiner rules it a homicide: http://wgntv.com/2014/12/12/death-of-12-year-old-tamir-rice-ruled-a-homicide-medical-examiner-says/

Well, by definition, it is.

It wasn't a suicide, it wasn't an accident.

It was a deliberate shooting of the kid by the cop. That makes it a homicide.

It will probably be found to be a "justifiable homicide" because the cop saw the kid reach for what appeared to be a gun.

The fact that the cop could have (and should have IMO) handled it differently than just flying onto the scene and shooting the kid when he reacted badly doesn't change any of that.
The cop could easily have stopped well out of range of a kid with a pistol (anything beyond about 50 yards is pretty safe) and started from there. Ordered the kid to the ground or to drop the gun. But he had to pull his car up really close, startle the hell out of the kid and then when the kid reacted, open fire.
That's an ending to the situation that is both predictable and avoidable.

There have been lawsuits filed. That shit will drag out for years.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Anvilbrother 0]

ITT: people who have never been a cop, or never had police training are suddenly an expert.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Anvilbrother

ITT: people who have never been a cop, or never had police training are suddenly an expert.

Translation: police are gods and we are unworthy to ever question anything they do.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[BillyVance 34]

GeorgiaDon

***ITT: people who have never been a cop, or never had police training are suddenly an expert.

Translation: police are gods and we are unworthy to ever question anything they do.

Don

And if they see you recording their actions on camera, they either beat you up or take your camera/phone, or both.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Anvilbrother 0]

Cops don't come in off the street and tell you how your studying a cockroach wrong do they?

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[GeorgiaDon 340]

I don't kill people when I make a mistake.
If my training is bad, it doesn't result in me killing people.

Cops are public servants. The public is not the servants of the cops. If our servants are not serving us as well as they could be, why do we (as their employers) not have any right to suggest how the service could be better? Especially when poor service=dead public.

I'll remind you of the old adage: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The police do, of necessity, sometimes have to make life or death decisions. That's a lot of power. If their decisions, or the tactics that put them in the position of having to make those decisions, are beyond question, then you are giving them absolute power.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

Anvilbrother

ITT: people who have never been a cop, or never had police training are suddenly an expert.

Do you know anything about what training and experience I have?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[champu 1]

We've just circled back around to this post. (or one nearby it)

I blame a combination of political face-saving and aversion to litigation. It's apparently quite difficult to divorce the idea of an officer or a department being at fault and subject to prosecution and/or lawsuits and the idea that maybe the policies and procedures that were held up against the officers' actions when determining the shooting was justified need some reviewing themselves.

As you point out, to continually go back to the moment of the shooting and say "cops are human..." and "you don't know what making split second decisions is like" is to completely miss the point.

If (yes... in hindsight) a situation would have almost certainly resolved itself better had the cops just completely ignored the call and just gone and done something else that day* then to not review the encounter with an extremely critical eye towards procedures is to discourage people from calling the police.


(* thinking of this kid, the kid with the replica AK, wallet guy in the gas station, the baseball player's son in Texas, the guy rummaging in the back seat of his car, the guy in the stairwell, the teenager who locked himself in the bathroom with scissors, and the deaf guy moving boxes out of his friend's house as specific examples)

[Anvilbrother 0]

Itt is a joke and it means everyone. But if your a super cop by all means let us know your background in law enforcement.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Croc 0]

Quote

GeorgiaDon

***True, but both are people not robots and are prone to human error.

Absolutely, we both agree on that. And we agree that it is not reasonable to expect people to make the correct decision (which is to say, the same decision we would come to if we had all the facts and none of the stress) all the time. I would even concede that the majority of the incidents that raise controversy are not the result of overt racism, though I do think more subtle forms of racism influence police reactions by increasing stress.

I think a lot of the problems we have been seeing are due to a police culture that increasingly prizes aggressive action, and puts officers into situations where split-second decisions have to be made. The case of the 12-year-old kid is a good example. We can also look at the increasing frequency of SWAT team tactics, where SWAT teams are even being used against suspected office pools where friends place small bets on sports games, and on parties where police suspect underage drinking.
Link: http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/%E2%80%9Cwhy_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_reading_a_book_the_new_warrior_cop_is_out_of_control/ [sorry I had to paste the link like this, but when I embed it, when you click on it it just goes to a generic Salon Magazine page not the actual article for some reason].

I think we have a problem when people in general fear the police, even people who are doing nothing wrong. I think we have a problem when it frequently seems that law enforcement has come to believe that the end justifies the means and that the constitution (particularly the 4th amendment) is just an impediment to be ignored when possible. [see the Salon article I linked for many examples, such as where police forces deliberately avoid the need to get a warrant by pretending to be enforcing business license regulations as a pretext to send SWAT teams to raid barber shops and nightclubs]. I think we have a problem when dead people, whose lethal crime was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, or a failure to react quickly enough to a command, are regarded as "justifiable" and "unfortunate collateral damage". I think we have a problem when the police are almost never held to account for anything they do, no matter how egregious. At worst a lawsuit may result in money paid to families of victims of police excesses, but that money is paid by taxpayers (=us) and never impacts the wallets of police departments or individual police officers.

I think we have a problem when at least some police no longer regard themselves as part of the community, but rather as the lords and masters, the "sheep-dogs" whose role it is to keep the "sheep" in line (to reference an earlier thread). Not only does this attitude breed contempt for our basic civil rights, it encourages police departments to do things such as become a kleptocracy, using sketchy civil forfeiture laws to help themselves to the lawful property of innocent citizens.

I think these things, and I'm a well educated upper middle class white guy. I can well imagine that people who are less advantaged are even more skeptical of the "good intentions" of the police.

Don



Well said

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

• Quote

[sfzombie13 307]

that link thing is a symptom of a redirect virus or dns poisoning. you, sir, are infected.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[Kadde 0]

One have to be able to make a difference of when "it was just a mistake" from "You've seriously fucked up now..."

This is in the later section. If i compare this to a surgical operation since that is my workplace this would be like the surgeon punching the knife through the patient and making a new grand canyon in his/her liver instead of a making the cut a little to big.

The fact that they drove up right next to a person they thought had a gun is probably (hopefully) just a brainfart from thier side. Otherwise this will happen again, the next time they choose to place themselves 1m from a potential gunman.

[BillyVance 34]

Yeah, they fucked it up in that regard for sure. Pull up to a stop sideways 50 yards away and order the dude to get down on the ground, and go from there.

Along the same line, Darren Wilson messed up getting too close to Brown, allowing Brown to come right up to his vehicle and start the confrontation that led to his death.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[ryoder 1,394]

Cleveland agrees to pay $6M to family of Tamir Rice, while admitting no wrong doing;
Because nothing says "no wrong doing" like $6M.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/04/25/475583746/cleveland-to-pay-6-million-to-settle-tamir-rice-lawsuit

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.