champu 1 #51 November 29, 2014 The police response was very new-age-active-shooter-esque. "Run towards the gunfire", "Direct police confrontation is the only thing that will stop the suspect from killing his next victim", etc. and is in stark contrast to the "set up a perimeter and establish contact with the suspect" methods used up through Columbine. The problem is, of course, this wasn't a new-age active shooter scenario. This is evidenced both in hindsight because the gun was a toy and in foresight because the suspect hadn't actually shot anyone. Police need to have, and use, more than just a hammer in their tool belt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,620 #52 November 29, 2014 RonD1120 Present company excepted, I was referring to Americans not citizens. OK, Chile, Argentina, Ecuador, Brazil, Venezuela, Uraguay, Bolivia, Canada...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #53 November 29, 2014 Your exactly right we also as firefighters are taught to do the same in active shooter situations which is DRASTICALLY different than it used to be. Before we would stage around the block until the cops have secured the whole school complex, killed or captured the shooters and the scene placed "code 4". The way it is now the first officer to the scene runs to the gun shots and engages immediately, the first firefighter/ems follows shortly after, and enters only known secure rooms/halls to remove people and patients. They could still be actively shooting in the next classroom, or hall, but they have us going in with them unarmed, and unprotected. We have had full scale exercises on this, and its a US wide initiative with a federal curriculum to go by. Its a very odd position to put us in. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #54 November 29, 2014 Ah, it's the holiday season. Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 185 #55 November 30, 2014 kallend ***Present company excepted, I was referring to Americans not citizens. OK, Chile, Argentina, Ecuador, Brazil, Venezuela, Uruguay, Bolivia, Canada... Hey, he's talking about REAL Americans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #56 November 30, 2014 winsorHey, he's talking about REAL Americans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,620 #57 November 30, 2014 champu***Hey, he's talking about REAL Americans. A lot of fat bastards in Florida, Tennessee, and the mountain west.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,381 #58 December 3, 2014 "Cleveland officer who shot Tamir Rice had 'dismal' handgun performance for Independence police": http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #59 December 4, 2014 Feds blast Cleveland police practices! From the article (underlining added by me for emphasis): "The investigation found that the department employs "poor and dangerous tactics that place officers in situations where avoidable force becomes inevitable." The Justice Department concluded that Cleveland's officers are not provided "adequate training, policy guidance, support, and supervision. Additionally, systems of review that would identify problems and correct institutional weaknesses and provide individual accountability are seriously deficient." " This fits perfectly with the incident this thread is about. The kid is dead because of a sequence of bad decisions, some certainly by the kid/kid's family [removing orange cap from air gun; using air gun as a toy in a public area] and some by the police [overly aggressive tactics that put officer in a position without any "outs"; startling the kid and then allowing him less than a second to hear and obey a command apparently yelled at him 3 times in under a second from just a couple of feet away (I defy anyone to hear, understand, and react correctly if I was to scream "get your hands up" 3 times in 1 second right in their ear); issuing a firearm to an officer with such a poor training record (see Ryoder's post above)]. Note that the federal review of the Cleveland police started in March 2013 in response to "a number of high profile use of force incidents and requests from the community and local government to investigate the division." Mayor Frank Jackson requested the investigation after a controversial police chase and shooting that killed two people in December 2012. (from the linked article)." This report was not a knee-jerk response to the shooting of the kid, rather it's clear that the incident with the kid is just part and parcel of a long-standing pattern of excessively aggressive police behavior in Cleveland. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #60 December 4, 2014 How long was that report being prepared, and just happened to come out now? Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #61 December 4, 2014 AnvilbrotherHow long was that report being prepared, and just happened to come out now?From my post you responded to: QuoteNote that the federal review of the Cleveland police started in March 2013 in response to "a number of high profile use of force incidents and requests from the community and local government to investigate the division. Let me make it very simple for you: March 2013 until now is just over 1 year and 8 months. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #62 December 4, 2014 Quote Let me make it very simple for you: Unless your gonna start making me dinner I dont need to hear your sarcasm. Im sorry I was reading it on my phone and did not see the dates... Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cgriff 0 #63 December 4, 2014 Anvilbrother Unless your gonna start making me dinner I dont need to hear your sarcasm. Free dinner with each order of sarcasm?! Sign me up! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #64 December 4, 2014 Ok but your the little spoon.... Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #65 December 4, 2014 http://filmschoolrejects.com/features/boiling-point-big-men-have-feelings-too.php Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #66 December 4, 2014 Anvilbrother Quote Let me make it very simple for you: Unless your gonna start making me dinner I dont need to hear your sarcasm. Im sorry I was reading it on my phone and did not see the dates... Since I have no plans to make you dinner I'll accept that you missed the part where I said March 2013. The more interesting point is, I think, that apparently in the Cleveland police force, and I would suggest this occurs elsewhere as well, poor training and supervision has allowed "poor and dangerous tactics that place officers in situations where avoidable force becomes inevitable" to become common. It's tempting to ascribe police shootings of unarmed people or the mentally ill to racism, but I think there can be non-racist reasons behind the trend. Elsewhere people have mentioned changes in police tactics post-Columbine. I could speculate about the influence of militarization of the police. Whatever the cause or causes, it seems obvious to me that tactics that consistently put officers in a situation where they have to make a snap judgement will result in a lot of unnecessary civilian deaths or serious injuries, because officers (being human) will often seek to protect themselves rather than take a chance. The result is a shooting that is "justified" (in the sense that the officer was genuinely in fear for his/her life) but totally unnecessary (in that if the officer hadn't put themselves in a situation where they had to make a snap decision they would have realized was a kid goofing around with a toy, or some schmuck using the stairs instead of the elevator). I also suspect that individual departments take on a culture, be it Rambo-like or safety minded, driven by the "management" and by dominant personalities on the force. If you have a culture that overlooks or excuses "mistakes" and develops a taste for adrenalin (no-knock warrants, lots of physicality in dealing with "perps", mocking officers who "play it safe") then lots of "mistakes" will be made. On the other hand a culture of safety, with review of "incidents" and weeding out of people who are in policing for the adrenalin or other inappropriate reasons, or have a history of poor decision making, will result in fewer "mistakes" being made. Not all that different from DZs, really. Useful comparisons can be made to aviation/skydiving accidents too. Most incidents result from a chain of poor decisions, each one perhaps not too egregious, but added together result in catastrophe. The catastrophe would likely have been avoided if the chain of poor decisions had been broken at any point, but once you find yourself in the corner without any outs and too low you're screwed. If you think of these "excessive force" incidents there is also a chain of decisions (except sometimes 2 people are each making decisions) and a point of no return (when the officer has just a second to make a decision). If better training and discipline results in officers finding themselves in the corner and out of altitude less often we'll all be better off. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #67 December 4, 2014 The cops (swoopers) are also finding themselves in more traffic under canopy(street thugs). Basically surrounded by half blind jumpers weaving in and out of their swooping path. They are eventually going to hit someone no matter how much training and precautions they take. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #68 December 4, 2014 It is possible in your world for a cop to do wrong? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #69 December 4, 2014 Anvilbrother Unless your gonna start making me dinner I dont need to hear your sarcasm. Im sorry I was reading it on my phone and did not see the dates... Yeah, I hate the way my phone edits out dates from blocks of text I'm reading. I don't know why they programmed that feature.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #70 December 4, 2014 I guess you have never skimmed over a post while stopped at a red light.....hey guys look at mr photogenic memory over there. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,620 #71 December 4, 2014 Anvilbrotherphotogenic memory. WTF is a photogenic memory?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #72 December 4, 2014 Sure, just haven't seen many come through these forums, just sensationalized blown out of proportion half truth pitchfork mob type of cases. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #73 December 4, 2014 Anvilbrother I guess you have never skimmed over a post while stopped at a red light..... Actually no, because that's illegal. One chokehold for Mr Anvil, please! Quote hey guys look at mr photogenic memory over there. Yes, I have been told I have an exceptionally pretty brain.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #74 December 4, 2014 kallend***photogenic memory. WTF is a photogenic memory? His brain looks good in pictures...Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #75 December 4, 2014 "photographic" damn auto correct my bad. You fucking know what I was trying to say. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
