An idea for electric vehicles (real idea, I'm not ball busting)

[brenthutch 383]

I was at the hardware store today swapping out a propane tank for a full one, when the notion of exchange popped into my head. Instead of plugging the car into a charging station, why not just swap out the spent battery pack for a fully charged one. It has the potential of being quicker and certainly less smelly than gasoline and would eliminate the forty minute pit-stop. Any thoughts?

[Remster 24]

Thanks for being positive.

But, it kinda proves you don't really read or follow the information out there on electrical cars.

http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap

Remster

[ryoder 1,384]

And the idea predated Tesla: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[brenthutch 383]

I don't think I am being particularly positive or negative for that matter, I am just a realist. Until a Nissan Leaf can pull into a Tesla station and "fill up" with equal ease, widespread electric car use will be nothing more that a curiosity. A taxpayer subsidized toy for the upper middle class.
Weber, Ducane, Char-Broil, Grill-Master, etc... all use the same fuel, (propane) in a standard delivery vehicle (20 lb tank) natural gas and larger tanks notwithstanding.
Believe it or not I DO think that government has a roll to play here. Provided that the technology is mature enough, the Bureau of weights and measures should set a common standard.
Personally, I think that viable widespread use electric vehicles is at least a generation or two away. In fifty years nuclear fusion will be coming on line, and today's EVs will look like horse drawn carriages to what will be available then. My humble plan is to use gasoline as a bridge fuel to the future. What ever the case, EVs can not move forward until there is a standard for their energy delivery. Think AC vs DC, Betamax vs VHS, Blu ray vs HD DVD. (even though the market decided all of those).

[wmw999 2,122]

We can't know what the best future fuel will be until we determine several that don't work after all. Think about electric and steam cars in the early days of automobiles, and all the different places that they dealt with steering etc.

Most of the risk is being taken by private industry; however, when things have to integrate into the current infrastructure (rather than being done in pockets as was practical in the late 19th/early 20th centuries), the gummint has to be involved, because it regulates the infrastructure, and it's in the gummint's interest to make sure that whatever is developed can at least co-exist with the current infrastructure.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[sfzombie13 307]

i am very much with you on the standards. we need them to be set for solar power to be viable also. if there were standards for types of connectors, then you could convert all appliances, except for heat producing ones, to use dc without converting it to ac first. tv's, stereos, computers, etc. could all be used just by plugging in to the wall and selecting the proper voltage at the outlet. i have mentioned it before on heere, years ago, but it was said that the manufacturers would never adopt the same standard. i disagree. if it were set for them, like the ac wall outlet standards in all countries, they would have no choice.

and as for the vehicles, if i could find a backer willing to sign a non-disclosure agreement, i would love to have some financing so that i can develop my idea for an electric car which would produce it's own electricity. all it needs is two regular car batteries, and would run nearly forever. there are a few bugs to work out, but i'm not an engineer, just the idea man. for less than a grand, i could come up with the prototype, but the business isn't going that good yet. kind of a catch 22, i don't want to tell anyone about it so they can't take it, and it's hard to get financing without telling someone about it.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[billvon 2,400]

>I was at the hardware store today swapping out a propane tank for a full one, when
>the notion of exchange popped into my head. Instead of plugging the car into a
>charging station, why not just swap out the spent battery pack for a fully charged one.

Tesla supports this; battery packs can be changed at a quick change station in minutes.

The big issue is that people may not want to just swap out their brand new $10K+ battery for one with only 75% of the capacity.

[brenthutch 383]

If battery packs were a commodity like gasoline, that would not be a problem. One pack for a urban runabout, a six pack or more for a SUV or sportscar. Or there could be one size with regular, plus, and premium options.

[Remster 24]

Quote

Bureau of weights and measures should set a common standard.

I say let the market sort it out!

Remster

[brenthutch 383]

The caveat at the end of my second post notwithstanding, I deserve that.

[kawisixer01 0]

I tend to agree...the govt shouldn't "force it". For decades manufacturers have figured out it's often been in their best interest to come together on an industry standard. From wall plugs, HDMI cables, speaker sizing, to USB charge ports on phones. Eventually the car companies will get over their little pissing contest and come to some sort of standards for their own good to become viable. Sometimes that process has been "helped" along by regulation, but I think the best scenario is when the brightest engineers from multiple firms can come to a consensus without some agency, that really doesn't know much about the subject, is forcing it with tax collection in mind.

[billvon 2,400]

>If battery packs were a commodity like gasoline, that would not be a problem.

Electricity is a commodity like gasoline. Batteries are more akin to your gas car's engine than the gasoline in its tank. The battery has a lot to do with determining how fast the car can accelerate, how hard it can brake via regen and how far it can go.

Compare changing a battery pack to having a "quick refuel" station where your car's gas tank and engine are dropped out and exchanged for a fresh set. (Indeed, the weight is similar, and batteries cost even more.) Are you always going to be OK with whatever engine you get? Even if those engines were like commodities?

[turtlespeed 212]

billvon

>If battery packs were a commodity like gasoline, that would not be a problem.

Electricity is a commodity like gasoline. Batteries are more akin to your gas car's engine than the gasoline in its tank. The battery has a lot to do with determining how fast the car can accelerate, how hard it can brake via regen and how far it can go.

Compare changing a battery pack to having a "quick refuel" station where your car's gas tank and engine are dropped out and exchanged for a fresh set. (Indeed, the weight is similar, and batteries cost even more.) Are you always going to be OK with whatever engine you get? Even if those engines were like commodities?

Doesn't the motor and it's controls and governors and computers dictate performance?

The Battery is like the fuel tank. The electricity the fuel.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,400]

>Doesn't the motor and it's controls and governors and computers dictate performance?

In most electric vehicles performance is limited by the maximum discharge rate of the battery. That's the main reason that Teslas get the performance they do - not by having massive motors but by having large enough batteries that they can supply huge amounts of power.

>The Battery is like the fuel tank. The electricity the fuel.

In some ways, but that simplification misses a lot of the issue. If most fuel tanks had a tiny filler and output port that you couldn't enlarge, and they cost tens of thousands of dollars, weighed 400 pounds and held a gallon gasoline - the two would be more similar.

[turtlespeed 212]

billvon

>Doesn't the motor and it's controls and governors and computers dictate performance?

In most electric vehicles performance is limited by the maximum discharge rate of the battery. That's the main reason that Teslas get the performance they do - not by having massive motors but by having large enough batteries that they can supply huge amounts of power.

>The Battery is like the fuel tank. The electricity the fuel.

In some ways, but that simplification misses a lot of the issue. If most fuel tanks had a tiny filler and output port that you couldn't enlarge, and they cost tens of thousands of dollars, weighed 400 pounds and held a gallon gasoline - the two would be more similar.

I see your point.

What I don't see, is WHY people don't want to be fossil fuel free. It just makes too much sense.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[shropshire 0]

turtlespeed

What I don't see, is WHY people don't want to be fossil fuel free. It just makes too much sense.

At the moment, maybe we're just moving the fossil fuel issue along the supply chain.. considering where the electricity is source from.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[sfzombie13 307]

and we can't operate like some countries which are almost entirely ran by renewables (not going to list any sources, look them up and pay attention to who you listen to). everyone says that the price of alternative fuel is not cost effective, but that cost is highly subsidized by the government, they could tax the hell out of hydrocarbon energy production and subsidize renewables. that would level the playing field long enough to jump start the industry. the subsidies should have an expiration, otherwise we would be in another govt regulated disaster. of course, then you get politics involved, and it all goes to hell.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[freethefly 6]

Yet, the electric automobile dates back to 1890. Elmer Ambrose Sperry designed the first ever electric car. Had development continued, the gasoline powered car may had never took hold.
http://www.nasonline.org/publications/biographical-memoirs/memoir-pdfs/Sperry_Elmer.pdf
Scroll down to page nine.

What did come from Sperry's work was the car battery. Note that Mr. Sperry's electric car could go for 100 miles on a single charge.

I recommend reading all that you can about the most important inventor that few have heard of.
Being that I work for the last company the Elmer started, Sperry Rail Service, I am extremely interested in his work. We still use electromagnetic induction, his original idea, to locate internal defects in rail. The mind of Sperry made our lives what it is today.
It is only a shame that their are those who still wish to keep the future of electric automobiles a thing of the distant past. Hats off to all of those who are now reviving the original idea of Elmer Sperry.

Another good read.
http://philippe.boursin.perso.sfr.fr/velec/1900.htm

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[kawisixer01 0]

If this "http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/battery-material-0311.html" works it could make swapping batteries a moot point. The best design FOR THE CAR is to have cells stashed all over wherever there is room, and laid out in such a way to distribute the weight. The likely optimal engineered design is to have the battery integrated into the vehicle. By developing a battery that can be charged in the same amount of time that a typical gasoline fill up takes, that will make people more likely to buy into the tech.

[kelpdiver 2]

turtlespeed

Doesn't the motor and it's controls and governors and computers dictate performance?

The Battery is like the fuel tank. The electricity the fuel.

But how you charge that battery dictates its immediately and longer term capacity. Note this is true for electronic devices (phones, tablets, laptops) we all use.

There is variations based on the type of batteries, but generically speaking, you have 500-1000 full charges. If you drain it only halfway before recharging, then that's half a charge. Fast charging is not as good as slow charging. You get fewer lifetime cycles for fast charging. Running the battery down to zero can also reduce lifecycles or max capacity.

My recollection with the Tesla proposal was that you would temporary borrow the replacement pack, and then get your's back. This would allow you do do the SF -> LA run for example. With the 260 mile model, changing packs at the midpoint gets you there (it's about 430 miles today). On the way back, reverse.

But when you look at the price of these battery packs as part of the car cost, no one is going to want a random replacement. OTOH, with some black box recording of charge and discharge history, you could guarantee a min performance level (say 85% of the normal capacity) and at that point treat the battery packs more like commodities.

[Stumpy 256]

freethefly

Yet, the electric automobile dates back to 1890. Elmer Ambrose Sperry designed the first ever electric car. Had development continued, the gasoline powered car may had never took hold.
http://www.nasonline.org/publications/biographical-memoirs/memoir-pdfs/Sperry_Elmer.pdf
Scroll down to page nine.

What did come from Sperry's work was the car battery. Note that Mr. Sperry's electric car could go for 100 miles on a single charge.

I recommend reading all that you can about the most important inventor that few have heard of.
Being that I work for the last company the Elmer started, Sperry Rail Service, I am extremely interested in his work. We still use electromagnetic induction, his original idea, to locate internal defects in rail. The mind of Sperry made our lives what it is today.
It is only a shame that their are those who still wish to keep the future of electric automobiles a thing of the distant past. Hats off to all of those who are now reviving the original idea of Elmer Sperry.

Another good read.
http://philippe.boursin.perso.sfr.fr/velec/1900.htm

My dad worked for Sperry back in 78 when we lived in San Diego. I was too small to remember but I think it was a pretty big company at the time.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[CygnusX-1 42]

I think the whole reluctance from a consumer's standpoint would go away if you did not purchase the battery in the car. Your purchase price would be for the car. The battery belongs to someone else. You pull into the station, you swap out the battery and pay for the cost of the recharge (for the new battery). Then it really doesn't matter if you swap out a 100% battery for an 85% battery. You didn't own the 100% battery in the first place. Don't like the 85% battery, pull into the station and swap it out again to get your 95% battery.

[freethefly 6]

Stumpy

***Yet, the electric automobile dates back to 1890. Elmer Ambrose Sperry designed the first ever electric car. Had development continued, the gasoline powered car may had never took hold.
http://www.nasonline.org/publications/biographical-memoirs/memoir-pdfs/Sperry_Elmer.pdf
Scroll down to page nine.

What did come from Sperry's work was the car battery. Note that Mr. Sperry's electric car could go for 100 miles on a single charge.

I recommend reading all that you can about the most important inventor that few have heard of.
Being that I work for the last company the Elmer started, Sperry Rail Service, I am extremely interested in his work. We still use electromagnetic induction, his original idea, to locate internal defects in rail. The mind of Sperry made our lives what it is today.
It is only a shame that their are those who still wish to keep the future of electric automobiles a thing of the distant past. Hats off to all of those who are now reviving the original idea of Elmer Sperry.

Another good read.
http://philippe.boursin.perso.sfr.fr/velec/1900.htm

My dad worked for Sperry back in 78 when we lived in San Diego. I was too small to remember but I think it was a pretty big company at the time.

That would had been Sperry-Rand. Sperry bought Remington Rand back in the 1950's and renamed to Sperry-Rand.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[kelpdiver 2]

CygnusX-1

I think the whole reluctance from a consumer's standpoint would go away if you did not purchase the battery in the car. Your purchase price would be for the car. The battery belongs to someone else. You pull into the station, you swap out the battery and pay for the cost of the recharge (for the new battery). Then it really doesn't matter if you swap out a 100% battery for an 85% battery. You didn't own the 100% battery in the first place. Don't like the 85% battery, pull into the station and swap it out again to get your 95% battery.

but if you bought the model based on the 260 mile range (or 100, or X), and getting 15 or 20% less promotes range anxiety, then you still care.

But you're right- if there is enough infrastructure and enough slack capacity in the batteries to deliver the promise, then people will be ok. Just so long as there aren't cases of abrupt battery failure. Gas tank endurance is pretty reliable and we are (esp men) programmed to count on it.

[billvon 2,400]

>I think the whole reluctance from a consumer's standpoint would go away if you did
>not purchase the battery in the car.

Helps a bit. But it still doesn't make you any happier when you are stuck by the side of the road 20 miles from your destination because this time you got the 70% battery.

All that being said, there might be a market for a long range battery as an addition. You get your car with a nominal 70 mile range battery. Want to go 250 miles? Rent a long range battery. Comes with an energy guarantee (i.e. will give you at least 80 kilowatt-hours) and you can return it when you get to your destination.