Time to Lay Down Your Cards

[lawrocket 3]

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>> Why is this election so much worse than previous ones?

>Money!

True! After the invention of money in 2009 things got a lot worse.

Citizens United changed the way money affects elections.

No it didn't. In Citizens United the SCOTUS refused to stop the way money affected elections. It's been this way. For a very long time.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[wmw999 2,334]

The real question is -- will each of you do your best to support progress in the country, even if it's not exactly what you want? Right now we're mired in discord, with each "side" laying out ever-increasing tracts of don't-mess-with-my-ideology ground, and being sheeple-led to believe that any "defeat" for those they disagree with is a win.

What bullshit.

This country will never, ever make everyone in it happy and prosperous. This country will never, ever provide what everyone in it needs to make themselves happy and prosperous.

But we owe it to each other, and ourselves, to see beyond what we think is most important, and to get to some place where we can at least start moving again. We're all pissed at Congress, but as soon as someone there does something someone disagrees with, well, one side or the other's newspapers are all over that like flies on shit.

Personally, I don't think the country will go to hell in a handbasket regardless of which candidate is elected. It'll set a different direction, but that's happened before. The bigger the country, the harder it is to really set a new course -- in any direction.

I hope each of us can agree to lift a beer or whatever with someone we disagree with violently over politics after the election, and find something that we're willing to work on together.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 18]

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The real question is -- will each of you do your best to support progress in the country, even if it's not exactly what you want? Right now we're mired in discord, with each "side" laying out ever-increasing tracts of don't-mess-with-my-ideology ground, and being sheeple-led to believe that any "defeat" for those they disagree with is a win.

What bullshit.

This country will never, ever make everyone in it happy and prosperous. This country will never, ever provide what everyone in it needs to make themselves happy and prosperous.

But we owe it to each other, and ourselves, to see beyond what we think is most important, and to get to some place where we can at least start moving again. We're all pissed at Congress, but as soon as someone there does something someone disagrees with, well, one side or the other's newspapers are all over that like flies on shit.

Personally, I don't think the country will go to hell in a handbasket regardless of which candidate is elected. It'll set a different direction, but that's happened before. The bigger the country, the harder it is to really set a new course -- in any direction.

I hope each of us can agree to lift a beer or whatever with someone we disagree with violently over politics after the election, and find something that we're willing to work on together.

Wendy P.

It depends on what you think progress is

Making government bigger and more controling is not moving in a positive direction

And it is against our founding documents


I do not see any good progress in the last 8 years

Do you?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[RonD1120 59]

I predict 290-300 for Romney but we won't know for about a week.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 2,772]

>I do not see anything good progress in the last 8 years

In the last 4 years:

Recovery from a recession
End of war in Iraq
End of Bin Laden
Increase in domestic oil production
Reduction in dependence on foreign oil
Increase in production of renewable energy by ~3% a year

Still a lot to do of course. We have another war to end.

[rushmc 18]

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>I do not see anything good progress in the last 8 years

In the last 4 years:

Recovery from a recession
Not really
End of war in Iraq
I guess so but that was on Bush's shcedule
End of Bin Laden
That is a good thing
Increase in domestic oil production
Happened despite Obama
Reduction in dependence on foreign oil
Increase in production of renewable energy by ~3% a year
Along with billions of wasted tax dollars
Still a lot to do of course. We have another war to end.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

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Predict the Electoral College count and be on record
I predict 300+ for Romney

Ok, so what are you betting?

Let's say Romney gets less than 300 Electoral votes, what are you putting on the table buddy?

Say Romney gets less than 300 Electoral votes, are you willing to admit publicly you and your sources of information, as clearly shown by your prediction, know nothing about political science?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 18]

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Predict the Electoral College count and be on record
I predict 300+ for Romney

Ok, so what are you betting?

Let's say Romney gets less than 300 Electoral votes, what are you putting on the table buddy?

Say Romney gets less than 300 Electoral votes, are you willing to admit publicly you, as clearly shown by your prediction, know nothing about political science?

Well there you go all snarky again quade

Glad you like to show your true colors

But to your smart ass reply

I think he will get 300 +

If I a wrong I dont think I will have to point it out as it is here for all to see, Right?

what are you willing to do if Romney DOES get 300+

Admit your were an ass to me in this thread?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[livendive 8]

I don't think there's a tremendous policy difference between the two candidates. I think Romney will slant slightly toward the wealthy and Obama slightly toward the poor, but both will stay pretty close to the middle. The biggest reason I'd prefer to see Obama win is the signal it will send to Congress. A 17% approval rating means they're doing it freaking wrong. If Romney wins, the last two years will be positively reinforced, and that's bad for all of us. I'd rather Congress reconvene with their collective tails between their legs and start actually trying to do their job.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,772]

>>Recovery from a recession
>Not really

Yep, really. GDP up, unemployment down.

>End of war in Iraq
>>I guess so but that was on Bush's shcedule

OK. If you need to tell yourself that to accept it that's fine. Still a good thing.

>Increase in domestic oil production
>>Happened despite Obama

Again, tell yourself anything you want about why the good stuff happened. The important thing is that you support the country in continuing those things.

[DanG 1]

Thanks for proving Wendy's point. billvon gave examples of progress, but you only want to award points if they happened on your guy's watch. If the country is improving, why does it matter who is at the titular helm?

- Dan G

[rushmc 18]

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>>Recovery from a recession
>Not really

Yep, really. GDP up, unemployment down.
No growth, UE higher than when Obama took office, median income down. If this is a recovery I cant imagine what a recession really is

>End of war in Iraq
>>I guess so but that was on Bush's shcedule

OK. If you need to tell yourself that to accept it that's fine. Still a good thing.

>Increase in domestic oil production
>>Happened despite Obama

Again, tell yourself anything you want about why the good stuff happened. The important thing is that you support the country in continuing those things.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

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Predict the Electoral College count and be on record
I predict 300+ for Romney

Ok, so what are you betting?

Let's say Romney gets less than 300 Electoral votes, what are you putting on the table buddy?

Say Romney gets less than 300 Electoral votes, are you willing to admit publicly you, as clearly shown by your prediction, know nothing about political science?

Well there you go all snarky again quade

It's not "snark." You're the one who made this a betting metaphor. I just want to know what you're putting up.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wmw999 2,334]

Ya know, Marc -- even if the ending was on "Bush's schedule" it happened. The plan was finalized and carried out, even though there was stuff that could have derailed it.

The economy isn't recovered, but it's way better off than it was -- and even than it was in 2006 to early 2008, when we only thought it was booming. Because nothing big gets as sick as the economy without taking sometime to get there.

Increase in domestic energy means that Obama didn't "get in the way." He didn't even try to (other than the Keystone XL thang in Nebraska, which had asked for extra time). So maybe he also thinks that energy independence is important -- maybe not in exactly the same way that you do, but maybe he doesn't want us to import everything either.

As far as renewable energy being a waste -- by paying more now, we'll pay less later, when we might just need it more. The population of hte earth is increasing, the people in very-populous China are going to compete for world energy more and more, and if we can afford to sell them some of our oil -- wouldn't that be cool?

Just because we start down a course doesn't mean we have to go all the way down that course, often things change adn we have to change course. But if we never start anything because it's not perfect, then I'm not sure that's much of an improvement, either.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 18]

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Predict the Electoral College count and be on record
I predict 300+ for Romney

Ok, so what are you betting?

Let's say Romney gets less than 300 Electoral votes, what are you putting on the table buddy?

Say Romney gets less than 300 Electoral votes, are you willing to admit publicly you, as clearly shown by your prediction, know nothing about political science?

Well there you go all snarky again quade

It's not "snark." You're the one who made this a betting metaphor. I just want to know what you're putting up.

I put up being civil

How about you?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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Ya know, Marc -- even if the ending was on "Bush's schedule" it happened. The plan was finalized and carried out, even though there was stuff that could have derailed it.

The economy isn't recovered, but it's way better off than it was -- and even than it was in 2006 to early 2008, when we only thought it was booming. Because nothing big gets as sick as the economy without taking sometime to get there.

Increase in domestic energy means that Obama didn't "get in the way." He didn't even try to (other than the Keystone XL thang in Nebraska, which had asked for extra time). So maybe he also thinks that energy independence is important -- maybe not in exactly the same way that you do, but maybe he doesn't want us to import everything either.

As far as renewable energy being a waste -- by paying more now, we'll pay less later, when we might just need it more. The population of hte earth is increasing, the people in very-populous China are going to compete for world energy more and more, and if we can afford to sell them some of our oil -- wouldn't that be cool?

Just because we start down a course doesn't mean we have to go all the way down that course, often things change adn we have to change course. But if we never start anything because it's not perfect, then I'm not sure that's much of an improvement, either.

Wendy P.

Sorry Wendy

I see very little here in your post

People want to take credit for what they have not done and then want to look at what is happening to double thick rose colored glasses

This economy sucks bad

I do not think it would have gotten worse

I think what is happening is slowing recovery

Government can not be a solution

The private sector is the only solution

Government is killing the private sector

Politics is not a lets just get along sport

It is based on ideas and disagreement and by definition is confrontational

That will not and should not change

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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Thanks for proving Wendy's point. billvon gave examples of progress, but you only want to award points if they happened on your guy's watch. If the country is improving, why does it matter who is at the titular helm?

Just because he gave them and you agree makes them correct?

I got a bridge to sell and I bet you are interested huh

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

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I put up being civil

You can't "put up" something you've never demonstrated in the past. Seriously. You responded to Kallend with "Such a chicken..... " within minutes of starting this thread.

So, what are you really putting up?

How about this. If Romney gets less than 300 votes in the Electoral College, YOU will self banish for 30 days?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DanG 1]

So when you said that ending the war in Iraq and increasing oil producton didn't count, what you meant to say was that those things are bad?

- Dan G

[rushmc 18]

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I put up being civil

You can't "put up" something you've never demonstrated in the past. Seriously. You responded to Kallend with "Such a chicken..... " within minutes of starting this thread.

So, what are you really putting up?

How about this. If Romney gets less than 300 votes in the Electoral College, YOU will self banish for 30 days?

Another pot kettle post


Will you do the same if he does?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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So when you said that ending the war in Iraq and increasing oil producton didn't count, what you meant to say was that those things are bad?

Nope

And you know that

We are talking to who's credit now

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,334]

So that all that compromise that brought the end of segregation in the 1960's was wrong?

Should it all be about being the strongest and forcing your agenda through? Might makes right all the time? How about when might is on the side of the people you disagree with?

And if government is always the problem, and never a solution, where should roads come from? Police? Laws that prevent someone from just coming in and taking your house because they like it? Should one-on-one gunfights settle those disagreements?

What do you think would have happened if TARP and the bailouts hadn't happened, and (some of) the big banks, GM & Chrysler had failed? Do you think we would have recovered quickly?

I'm not at all sure that the bailouts were a good idea personally, but the majority of people who have studied economics a whole lot more than I have say they were necessary. I'm not convinced, but I acknowledge they've spend time studing the consequences.

These are multi-sentence issues, not sound-bite issues.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,772]

>No growth

US GDP 2008: 14.3T
US GDP 2011: 15.1T

>UE higher than when Obama took office

Unemployment Jan 2009: 7.8%
UE Oct 2009: 10%
UE Sep 2012: 7.8%

>median income down

US median incomes:
2011 $49,103
2010 $48,340
2009 $48,855

>If this is a recovery I cant imagine what a recession really is

It would be numbers going in the opposite direction.

[Remster 27]

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These are multi-sentence issues, not sound-bite issues.

You lie!



(sorry, couldn't help it! )

Remster

[jakee 1,379]

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I think Romney will slant slightly toward the wealthy and Obama slightly toward the poor, but both will stay pretty close to the middle.

You're crazy. Obama spends his days doodling "I heart Stalin" on the Oval office desk and Romney wants to feed poor people with own babies.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?