Time to Lay Down Your Cards

[rushmc 18]

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So that all that compromise that brought the end of segregation in the 1960's was wrong?

Should it all be about being the strongest and forcing your agenda through? Might makes right all the time? How about when might is on the side of the people you disagree with?

And if government is always the problem, and never a solution, where should roads come from? Police? Laws that prevent someone from just coming in and taking your house because they like it? Should one-on-one gunfights settle those disagreements?

What do you think would have happened if TARP and the bailouts hadn't happened, and (some of) the big banks, GM & Chrysler had failed? Do you think we would have recovered quickly?

I'm not at all sure that the bailouts were a good idea personally, but the majority of people who have studied economics a whole lot more than I have say they were necessary. I'm not convinced, but I acknowledge they've spend time studing the consequences.

These are multi-sentence issues, not sound-bite issues.

Wendy P.

First off the segregation point is a strawman here

You also know we are not talking the basics like roads so that is another strawman (but one used often by the left)

TARP and the bailouts are a perfect example of government going past it place. I think these are making the recovery longer

Failures and the like weed out those that need to be weeded out. What we have done is extend the problems. Yes, there would have been pain, but the car companies and banks would still be here only stronger. And the unions would have not gotten a free gift from Obama

I am not talking sound bites

Are you?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[livendive 8]

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Increase in domestic energy means that Obama didn't "get in the way." He didn't even try to (other than the Keystone XL thang in Nebraska, which had asked for extra time). So maybe he also thinks that energy independence is important -- maybe not in exactly the same way that you do, but maybe he doesn't want us to import everything either.

As far as renewable energy being a waste -- by paying more now, we'll pay less later, when we might just need it more. The population of hte earth is increasing, the people in very-populous China are going to compete for world energy more and more, and if we can afford to sell them some of our oil -- wouldn't that be cool?

For an example of a country being smart with their oil, Saudi Arabia is investing some of the money from it in solar powered desalination, so they can use less of their oil while also becoming food and water independent before their reserves wane. By contrast, the US is about to pass them and become the largest oil producing nation on the planet, yet we're still consuming about 50% more than we're producing. We can get smarter now, or wish we had later.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[wmw999 2,123]

Your previous post was all sound bites. Statments like "governement is never the answer" are disproved the instant one finds a case where government was the answer. The next step, then, should be trying to figure out where the line is, rather than stepping back to "government is never the answer."

Segregation is an example where government and cooperation helped -- they disprove the assertions that government is always best confrontational.

The thing is that just because I think government is sometimes the answer doesn't mean I think it always is. By by taking all-or-none positions, people of either side stop a discussion that should be taking place.

I know you don't really want to remove all government, but if you want to remove some of it, then you need to identify it, and figure out what the consequences are, and how to mitigate them.

Just as people who want to grow the government should figure out what the consequences are, and how to mitigate them.

I live in America just as you do.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Your previous post was all sound bites. Statments like "governement is never the answer" are disproved the instant one finds a case where government was the answer. The next step, then, should be trying to figure out where the line is, rather than stepping back to "government is never the answer."

Segregation is an example where government and cooperation helped -- they disprove the assertions that government is always best confrontational.

The thing is that just because I think government is sometimes the answer doesn't mean I think it always is. By by taking all-or-none positions, people of either side stop a discussion that should be taking place.

I know you don't really want to remove all government, but if you want to remove some of it, then you need to identify it, and figure out what the consequences are, and how to mitigate them.

Just as people who want to grow the government should figure out what the consequences are, and how to mitigate them.

I live in America just as you do.

Wendy P.

Segregation was a rights issue

The government involvment was laws
People were the answer

As for a place government does not belong?

How about Obamacare?

The fed does NOT belong in our schools

Two off the top of my head

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,400]

>TARP and the bailouts . . .are making the recovery longer

>The car companies and banks would still be here only stronger

>And the unions would have not gotten a free gift from Obama

>I am not talking sound bites

A classic RushMC post.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

>TARP and the bailouts . . .are making the recovery longer

>The car companies and banks would still be here only stronger

>And the unions would have not gotten a free gift from Obama

>I am not talking sound bites

A classic RushMC post.

Thank you

makes the point well

Sorry if you dont agree

In any case, it is based on opinions

Right?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,123]

Government is in healthcare. It regulates the insurance that's offered, it requires that people in emergency situations be treated regardless of ability to pay. So it's there. Do you think our healthcare system is perfect now? How about the fact that doctors are paid for treating sick people, rather than for keeping them healthy? How do you think the police would change if we paid police officers based on the number of criminals that they stopped, rather than based on the overall city needs?

Segregation was a rights issue; it was also an economic issue. All those people all of a sudden started competing for the same resources that really weren't available to them before. And are you saying, then, that government does belong in rights issues? How about ones that you don't agree with?

If a local school district were to decide that they wanted to teach (for example) Christian ethics in the 8th grade, because most of their students were Christians -- do you think that would be OK? How about if their Christian ethics included that women shouldn't cut their hair or wear slacks? How about if the school were to decide that they're not going to educate any special-needs children?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,123]

You have provided no data or anything else to back up those opinions. Learning comes from data and analysis, not from just believing someone.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,400]

>In any case, it is based on opinions
>Right?

Or sound bites, in your case.

[quade 3]

Still waiting for you to PUBLICLY accept the bet. You talk a lot of smack in PMs, but when it comes to accepting the bet in public, you're oddly quiet.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Government is in healthcare. It regulates the insurance that's offered, it requires that people in emergency situations be treated regardless of ability to pay. So it's there. Do you think our healthcare system is perfect now? How about the fact that doctors are paid for treating sick people, rather than for keeping them healthy? How do you think the police would change if we paid police officers based on the number of criminals that they stopped, rather than based on the overall city needs?

Segregation was a rights issue; it was also an economic issue. All those people all of a sudden started competing for the same resources that really weren't available to them before. And are you saying, then, that government does belong in rights issues? How about ones that you don't agree with?

If a local school district were to decide that they wanted to teach (for example) Christian ethics in the 8th grade, because most of their students were Christians -- do you think that would be OK? How about if their Christian ethics included that women shouldn't cut their hair or wear slacks? How about if the school were to decide that they're not going to educate any special-needs children?

Wendy P.

It was, in my opinon, in too far to start with. Now it is in even further

But I am not taling about emergency care, I am talking about regulations beyond that

No, our hc system is not perfect. I think it could be much better with fewer regulations (notice I said fewer, not no regulation)

Yes, segregation was and remains a rights issue. A cut and dried humans treating humans issue. Not an issue of government control.

Schools

You seem to think that local school control would be bad for children. I do not.

But the feds want control. The reasons are self evident

BTW, do you thinks ethics as defined by Christians is bad?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Still waiting for you to PUBLICLY accept the bet. You talk a lot of smack in PMs, but when it comes to accepting the bet in public, you're oddly quite.

As I stated sir

I will if YOU bet the same!

Now you are claiming smack in PM's

Post them if you think that is what they were

Post the whole converstaion line!!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,400]

>Yes, segregation was and remains a rights issue. A cut and dried humans treating
>humans issue. Not an issue of government control.

Funny, liberals are now describing the issue of gay rights the same way. Yet the right wing is firmly against the right to marry, and have any number of arguments why government should ban those rights and control who can marry who.

I am sure that within 50 years a conservative will be saying "well, gay rights was a cut and dried human rights issue. No one disagrees with that. How DARE you claim that conservatives opposed that!"

[billvon 2,400]

I'm not going to PM you but I will make you a bet.

I'll bet you $100 that Romney gets less than 280 electoral votes, payable to your favorite charity.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

>Yes, segregation was and remains a rights issue. A cut and dried humans treating
>humans issue. Not an issue of government control.

Funny, liberals are now describing the issue of gay rights the same way. Yet the right wing is firmly against the right to marry, and have any number of arguments why government should ban those rights and control who can marry who.

I am sure that within 50 years a conservative will be saying "well, gay rights was a cut and dried human rights issue. No one disagrees with that. How DARE you claim that conservatives opposed that!"

Gays have all the same rights today

Marrige is not a right

Most people do not care if they (gays) have civil unions and are recognized as couples under the law. I certainly do not care

But the left has to invent rights to make an argument

Just as you have done here

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 3]

Ok, so here's the bet.

The over/under is 300 electoral votes for Romney.

IF Romney is under 300 then RushMC will self banish for 30 days after admitting in public he's a jackass who knows nothing about political science.

IF Romney is over 300 then quade will self banish for 30 days after admitting in public he's a jackass who knows nothing about political science.

Time to put up or shut up Marc.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Ok, so here's the bet.

The over/under is 300 electoral votes for Romney.

IF Romney is under 300 then RushMC will self banish for 30 days after admitting in public he's a jackass who knows nothing about political science.

IF Romney is over 300 then quade will self banish for 30 days after admitting in public he's a jackass who knows nothing about political science.

Time to put up or shut up Marc.

I dont either one of us has to do the jackass thing because I dont think you would be a jackass if you are wrong and you seem to think I would be if I am wrong but
If that makes you feel better, why not

Im in

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 3]

Can't admit you're a jackass? Why, because you're chicken?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 18]

Quote

I'm not going to PM you but I will make you a bet.

I'll bet you $100 that Romney gets less than 280 electoral votes, payable to your favorite charity.

This bet I like

Cant loose if good charities get cash

In your name, what charity do you want it sent to?

My chaity would be the Children of Fallen Heros charity

http://www.cfsrf.org/

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Can't admit you're a jackass? Why, because you're chicken?

Now here is a typical quade twist

I said I would do it cause it seems to make you feel better

Kallend is a chicken because, as per his MO, he rarley lets his true position be known

Something he continues in this thread

So, are you in?

And I don care if you say you are a jackass or not

Up to you

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jakee 1,255]

What the hell is going on?

This thread is like an experiment in post-modernism.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[quade 3]

"The bet" is now official and on record for all to see.

I look forward to reading your comments tomorrow night.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 18]

Quote

What the hell is going on?

This thread is like an experiment in post-modernism.

I just started it to see what people thought the outcome might be

Guess I let myself get sucked into the rest

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Quote

"The bet" is now official and on record for all to see.

I look forward to reading your comments tomorrow night.

We both will be looking forward

Me with interest

You with anger I guess

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

>median income down

US median incomes:
2011 $49,103
2010 $48,340
2009 $48,855

In nominal dollars although they're decreasing in purchasing power and real terms

$48,855.00 in 2009 dollars is $50,397.12 in 2010 dollars and $51,223.77 in 2011 according to the United States Department of Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics CPI Inflation calculator.

Or to look at it another way, the 2011 median income is just $46,595.77 in 2009 dollars which is nearly 100 sky dives a year less than it was.

http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm