Cleveland school shooting

[SkyDekker 1,129]

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But even you tried hard, we never ever reached the(*your*) level of (mass/school) shootings over the past 40 yrs

Kinda strange that the last forty years is when the gun control laws started taking effect. And as more control is put on the laws, we end up with more and more of these incidents.

Hence I have concluded that gun control laws are misanthropic. Notice how many of these occur at schools? First, they are kids. Understandable. But second, schools are where one find sitting ducks. If a person wants to go on a spree homicide, it is rare that they go where the guns are.

Even in the Army, weapons are strictly controlled. Hence a mass murder at Ft. Hood can occur because there are no defense resources available.

So tell me, why is it that you want to ensure people are defenseless against those who wish to do harm and kill them? As gun controls increase, the mass murders increase. That is not arguable. There is a correlation here.

Maybe that works in Germany, where there's a rich history of headlong belief in government policy. If Germany could go for a century without starting world wars and without committing genocide, then perhaps there could be some moral superiority. Same with the US.

We're in twelve years into this century and Germany has behaved itself nicely. It just boggles my mind how any German citizen can trust their government at all. "Nein. You won't need your guns. We're the government, and we won't hurt anybody."

Seriously - how the hell could a German ever trust his or her government again?

I am more interested in finding out why Americans are more likely to go on mass murder shooting sprees. What makes American society that much more violent?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Jeez, JR. That's something YOU already did several times. But even you tried hard, we never ever reached the(*your*) level of (mass/school) shootings over the past 40 yrs.

Counting all the shootings in East Germany during the 70s and 80s by the state would decidedly tip the balance against you. Probably should stick to 20 years.

Saddest thing in Berlin is seeing the markers for the guys who were killed trying to escape to the West in the last months before the fall.

[lawrocket 3]

Separate offices. A single office can do it.

I've seen problems caused by this very rule.

Also, Medicare treats mental health services differently from any other physician's services if outpatient. It will cover 80% of diagnostic cost, but only 50% of the future visits.

Local Medical Review Boards determine the number of visits that will be covered. This frequently means that the boards determine the visits not to be medically necessary and won't cover them.

Medicare doesn't treat mental health the same as other forms of medicine.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[devildog 0]

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Miner .vs. Minor :-)

@ 2:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXzkv8X9UkQ

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[christelsabine 1]

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....
Seriously - how the hell could a German ever trust his or her government again?

Bullshit.

We do not have a 2nd Amendment. We do not need it.

If I call my police (of course not 911), I just trust they will be with me within minutes. That's a fact.

Mr. Shyster, perhaps in your eyes we are sheeps. I don't care. We just do not need weapons to control our country.
Europe does not need it.

You will learn one day.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[quade 3]

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What makes American society that much more violent?

Have you not met us?

The US values violence and solving problems through violence. Not all of them and not every day, but if you were to look at the history of the US, you'll see most of our heroes were violent men. Again, not all and not every day, but the stories that stand out more often than not include bloodshed rather than deep thought.

Some of this is justified, sometimes the only way to stop a monster is to kill it, but frequently the US will elevate even the monster to hero status. Even mass murdering criminals are celebrated here. Of course, in the end of every criminal's story they have to die a violent death themselves so as to prove "the system" still works, but in the meat of their stories, they're free to do the things we wish we could do but can't; simply kill anyone who gets in our way. We love our mob bosses whether real or imagined. We love our gun slingers. We love the catch phrases. "Say hello to my little friend." "Go ahead, make my day." "Make him an offer he can't refuse."

There is even a faction of people who will elevate this particular student who went on this particular shooting spree to hero status. "They" certainly did with the shooters at Columbine. Some even hold up the Oklahoma City bomber as a hero. How fucked up is that?

We are a violent country and it's in our cultural DNA.

This is not to say it isn't in the DNA of the rest of the world. To a certain extent, all humans are violent and I really do believe it's in the actual DNA of every man. Men, before the agricultural revolution in the fertile crescent 10,000 years ago really had only two motivations; sex and survival. The sex is pretty obvious. Survival meant either hunting or war. War meant either attacking to gain resources or defending whatever resources you had. All three; hunting, attacking or defending, all required killing. Humans and especially males are pretty good at it instinctually. Again, it's part of our actual DNA even if it has been repressed by civilization.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lawrocket 3]

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You will learn one day.

Thank goodness the Second Amendment is a check on what we will learn.

But seriously - how the hell can you just trust your government with such a shaky history? The US hasn't committed genocide in 150 years and we still don't trust our government.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[normiss 622]

Thankfully we have a world full of shining examples to keep in the back of our mind.
Hence the need for the 2nd.

[jclalor 12]

Sounds like the kid "borrowed" the weapon from his uncle.

Children do pay a very heavy price for our right to own weapons.

[quade 3]

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Sounds like the kid "borrowed" the weapon from his uncle.
Children do pay a very heavy price for our right to own weapons.

I'm sure the uncle was a "responsible" gun owner too.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[christelsabine 1]

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You will learn one day.

Thank goodness the Second Amendment is a check on what we will learn.

But seriously - how the hell can you just trust your government with such a shaky history? The US hasn't committed genocide in 150 years and we still don't trust our government.

If you trust your government or not is not our problem.

We feel quite comfortable with our policitians here, and if necessary, we have to discuss. And not to pull out our hand guns.

Shyster, you're lost here. I love my peaceful little country. No matter what you say.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[kelpdiver 2]

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What makes American society that much more violent?

The US values violence and solving problems through violence. Not all of them and not every day, but if you were to look at the history of the US, you'll see most of our heroes were violent men. Again, not all and not every day, but the stories that stand out more often than not include bloodshed rather than deep thought.

And yet, England, France, Germany, and the rest of Europe transformed from a feudal era to monarchies on a constant stream of violent conquest which continued with nationalistic wars up till the middle of the last century. It took TWO world wars, the second of incredible destruction to quell that. Even after WWII, we saw another another 20-30 years of colonial fighting.

So is it really in our cultural DNA, unlike the Europeans, or is WWII just a shock to their culture that will eventually be forgotten, the same way we see a great depression every 3 generations?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Sounds like the kid "borrowed" the weapon from his uncle.
Children do pay a very heavy price for our right to own weapons.

I'm sure the uncle was a "responsible" gun owner too.

as always, we can depend on you to leap to conclusions...negatively when it's a citizen, defensively when it's a bad cop.

[StreetScooby 5]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXzkv8X9UkQ

LOL!

We are all engines of karma

[quade 3]

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So is it really in our cultural DNA, unlike the Europeans, or is WWII just a shock to their culture that will eventually be forgotten, the same way we see a great depression every 3 generations?

I think most countries have national violence in the form of wars and while the US certainly has that, the US especially has and celebrates individual violence.

I'm going to take the view we can see this reflected in our respective literature. Nobody told the authors what to write about, they simply were reflecting the values of their respective cultures.

Go back 100 years ago and you don't see a lot of gun slingers in most European lit, but in the US it's far more frequent.

I don't think the question is if Europeans have been shocked out of it by war, but whether it will rise in Europe due to the ever increasing homogenization and globalization of media.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

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Sounds like the kid "borrowed" the weapon from his uncle.
Children do pay a very heavy price for our right to own weapons.

I'm sure the uncle was a "responsible" gun owner too.

as always, we can depend on you to leap to conclusions...negatively when it's a citizen, defensively when it's a bad cop.

The only leap I've made is how this will be spun by the pro-gun side. The uncle will be portrayed as a responsible gun owner who rightly kept a weapon for home defense (which, BTW I agree a responsible person has a right to) and it was the crazed lunatic nephew who stole it.

Then there will be a "debate" about how to keep a weapon at home and whether or not "child proof" locks and gun safes are a good idea.

Same as it ever was . . . same as it ever was.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lawrocket 3]

Yeah. Take a look at the Arab Spring. Check out what’s up in Syria. There are people in Syria fighting for survival. Fighting a life and death battle and they actually have a fighting chance.

What christelsabine and so many others don’t understand (which is understandable, as well) is that America was built on a distrust of government. Think the revolutionary war was fought because the Colonists had nothing better to do?

The American colonists won their freedom because they had the weaponry to win it. And the winners of that war became the leaders. And then the leaders did something incredible: they said, “We could become just as bad. Or people in the future may forget what we learned.” And they made rules about limited government.

Then other leaders said, “Hey. That Constitution is a good start, but what about the People’s rights?” And so they amended it, giving the People explicit rights that the government could not take away, unless the People amended the Constitution again, which is tough to do. They settled with ten Amendments, each of which would be given equal dignity. Among those was the right to bear arms.

Much of the population still does not trust the government. Unlike the nations of Western Europe that exalt Kings and Princes because they’re royalty. Accident of birth is enough (look at Prince Charles and tell me that “accident of birth” doesn’t describe that.)

And I look at the history of Germany – a government that has in recent history been pretty vicious. And it causes me fear that there is a trust in the government reflected that should such horrors be done anew that the people of Europe would simply go along with it. The German people supported the rise of the National Socialists. They allowed them to seize power and allowed them to maintain and control it.

Check out Germany’s gun control policy – first ordered by the Treaty of Versailles and enforced by summary executions, as times. By the start of WWII, Germany allowed gun ownership for those people who could be trusted. Jews could not possess a firearm. Then disarmament was forced after WWII by the Allies.

Note that even after restrictive gun laws were enacted in Germany due to anti-communist fervor of the late sixties, there were still incidents of mass shootings – particularly in schools. It didn’t prevent Erfurt in 2002. Gun control didn’t save 16 lives in Winnenden in 2009.

While christelsabine may say, “well, it’s not as bad here” I merely respond that Germany has a quarter of the population of the US, and is roughly half the geographical area of Texas we’d expect to see fewer school shootings. And of course, we’ve had 17 deaths from shootings on a Texas campus (1966 saw 16 in one incident and 2010 had a single fatal – again at the U of Texas). Gunslinging Texas has one in the last decade, compared to at least 35 in Germany.

So christel – how come Texas has school shooting deaths that are 3% of Germany’s over the last decade? No need to go back to 1972. Just the last three years provides a mighty fine example of how well strict gun control prevented the deaths of sixteen defenseless kids in Germany.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

Did you forget Winnenden?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[JohnRich 4]

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40 years later, our statistics just show what's been the best for us: Strict gun controls.

Are you claiming that there have been no mass shootings in Germany in the last 40 years?

Jeez, JR. That's something YOU already did several times. But even you tried hard, we never ever reached the(*your*) level of (mass/school) shootings over the past 40 yrs.

Thanks to your gun control laws.

So then you admit that even your strict gun control laws don't stop mass murderers.

And when you compare incidents, did you adjust for population differences?

And what makes you think that gun control laws are the ONLY variable which might account for this?

Are you aware that gun laws have been liberalized in the last 20 years in America, and that crime is at a 40-year low? That would seem to indicate that gun laws are not a controlling factor in crime, don't you think?

[JohnRich 4]

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We do not have a 2nd Amendment. We do not need it.

If someone with a gun had shot down that little dictator of yours in 1939, they could have saved a few tens of millions of lives.

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If I call my police, I just trust they will be with me within minutes. That's a fact.

How will you protect yourself while awaiting arrival of the police? What about citizens who live further away from the police?

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We just do not need weapons to control our country. Europe does not need it.

Yeah, Europe didn't need weapons to defend themselves against your country's invasion in WWII, and look what that got them: Occupation. Slavery. Confiscation. Extermination camps. Death.

It is precisely those kinds of over-reaches by government which the 2nd Amendment is a protection against. It's one of the many balances of powder the founding fathers built into our government. The House and the Senate balance each other out. The Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches balance each other out. Equal representation of states in the Senate and equal representation by population in the House balance each other out. And the 2nd Amendment balances out government military power.

[Southern_Man 0]

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Separate offices. A single office can do it.

I've seen problems caused by this very rule.

Also, Medicare treats mental health services differently from any other physician's services if outpatient. It will cover 80% of diagnostic cost, but only 50% of the future visits.

Local Medical Review Boards determine the number of visits that will be covered. This frequently means that the boards determine the visits not to be medically necessary and won't cover them.

Medicare doesn't treat mental health the same as other forms of medicine.

I will defer to you on the separate offices thing. I know it is frequent that we see people for therapy and psychiatry in the same day. This only makes sense as people are generally taking off from work or using their day off. The ones that are not working often have difficulty arranging transportation, still makes sense. Heck, there are even instances the person has to see a psychiatrist the same day as their first appointment with the therapist.

Honestly I am not always fully aware of the different rules on billing on Medicare vs. Medicaid. I am aware of the need for pre-authorization. As a communicty mental health clinic we are generally not seeing the "worried well" and don't generally have problems getting as much approved as we ask for (indeed, we are more limited by therapist availability than pre-auths).

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[SkyDekker 1,129]

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While christelsabine may say, “well, it’s not as bad here” I merely respond that Germany has a quarter of the population of the US, and is roughly half the geographical area of Texas we’d expect to see fewer school shootings. And of course, we’ve had 17 deaths from shootings on a Texas campus (1966 saw 16 in one incident and 2010 had a single fatal – again at the U of Texas). Gunslinging Texas has one in the last decade, compared to at least 35 in Germany.

Nice cherry picking.

If you want to contend that european societies are more violent than US society. Fine, whatever makes you sleep better at night. But when looking at things like intentional homocide rates per capita, it isn't overly supportable.

Americans like to be violent and clearly have some self control problems.

[SkyDekker 1,129]

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Occupation. Slavery. Confiscation. Extermination camps. Death.

I wonder if some of those terms would come up in polls of Iraqis and Afghanistanis.

[normiss 622]

Perfect.


As a responsible gun owner, none of my weapons have EVER been freely accessible to anyone other than myself.

I raised three beautiful daughters that had no interest in guns. Guns have always been secure in a gun safe.

[JohnRich 4]

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Shyster, you're lost here...

sabine: That's twice you've called him that in this thread. Just because he's a lawyer, doesn't mean he's a shyster. Shame on you for characterizing him like that. And that's a personal insult too, which is forbidden by the rules.

Moderator: We even have a moderator commenting in the thread, so we know he must have seen this. And yet no action is taken - why is that moderator? If you had issued a warning after the first occurence, there probably wouldn't have been a second. But since no action has been taken, the insulter feels free to continue the misbehavior.