Separation of church and state???

[normiss 622]

I was quite surprised to see this story of President Obama's beliefs.

WWJD

I really have trouble supporting those who govern based on their religious beliefs.

YMMV

[sundevil777 94]

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I was quite surprised to see this story of President Obama's beliefs.

WWJD

I really have trouble supporting those who govern based on their religious beliefs.

YMMV

What does that have to do with the title of this thread?

The "separation" is usually misunderstood to mean something that it wasn't meant to mean, and besides, the "separation" is not part of the constitution or other documents.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[JohnRich 4]

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What does that have to do with the title of this thread?

Because it's used by many to criticize conservative politicians because they don't want religion being used as a basis for making law or for running the country.

So it's going to be real interesting to watch these same people squirm now that their great Obama is proclaiming his religious faith.

[Coreece 190]

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I was quite surprised to see this story of President Obama's beliefs.

Why? It's an election year and Jesus is a good buddy to have on your side...I'm guessing there are many people who forgot he was a christian.

May the best Jesus freak win!

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[SpeedRacer 1]

But Ah thawt Obama wuz one o' dem Muzlims.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[yourmomma 0]

" religion being used as a basis for making law or for running the country."

Read Article 11

Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary.

ARTICLE 1.

There is a firm and perpetual Peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and subjects of Tripoli of Barbary, made by the free consent of both parties, and guaranteed by the most potent Bey & regency of Algiers.

ARTICLE 2.

If any goods belonging to any nation with which either of the parties is at war shall be loaded on board of vessels belonging to the other party they shall pass free, and no attempt shall be made to take or detain them.

ARTICLE 3.

If any citizens, subjects or effects belonging to either party shall be found on board a prize vessel taken from an enemy by the other party, such citizens or subjects shall be set at liberty, and the effects restored to the owners.

ARTICLE 4.

Proper passports are to be given to all vessels of both parties, by which they are to be known. And, considering the distance between the two countries, eighteen months from the date of this treaty shall be allowed for procuring such passports. During this interval the other papers belonging to such vessels shall be sufficient for their protection.

ARTICLE 5.

A citizen or subject of either party having bought a prize vessel condemned by the other party or by any other nation, the certificate of condemnation and bill of sale shall be a sufficient passport for such vessel for one year; this being a reasonable time for her to procure a proper passport.

ARTICLE 6.

Vessels of either party putting into the ports of the other and having need of provisions or other supplies, they shall be furnished at the market price. And if any such vessel shall so put in from a disaster at sea and have occasion to repair, she shall be at liberty to land and reembark her cargo without paying any duties. But in no case shall she be compelled to land her cargo.

ARTICLE 7.

Should a vessel of either party be cast on the shore of the other, all proper assistance shall be given to her and her people; no pillage shall be allowed; the property shall remain at the disposition of the owners, and the crew protected and succoured till they can be sent to their country.

ARTICLE 8.

If a vessel of either party should be attacked by an enemy within gun-shot of the forts of the other she shall be defended as much as possible. If she be in port she shall not be seized or attacked when it is in the power of the other party to protect her. And when she proceeds to sea no enemy shall be allowed to pursue her from the same port within twenty four hours after her departure.

ARTICLE 9.

The commerce between the United States and Tripoli, the protection to be given to merchants, masters of vessels and seamen,- the reciprocal right of establishing consuls in each country, and the privileges, immunities and jurisdictions to be enjoyed by such consuls, are declared to be on the same footing with those of the most favoured nations respectively.

ARTICLE 10.

The money and presents demanded by the Bey of Tripoli as a full and satisfactory consideration on his part and on the part of his subjects for this treaty of perpetual peace and friendship are acknowledged to have been recieved by him previous to his signing the same, according to a reciept which is hereto annexed, except such part as is promised on the part of the United States to be delivered and paid by them on the arrival of their Consul in Tripoly, of which part a note is likewise hereto annexed. And no presence of any periodical tribute or farther payment is ever to be made by either party.

ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

ARTICLE 12.

In case of any dispute arising from a notation of any of the articles of this treaty no appeal shall be made to arms, nor shall war be declared on any pretext whatever. But if the (consul residing at the place where the dispute shall happen shall not be able to settle the same, an amicable reference shall be made to the mutual friend of the parties, the Bey of Algiers, the parties hereby engaging to abide by his decision. And he by virtue of his signature to this treaty engages for himself and successors to declare the justice of the case according to the true interpretation of the treaty, and to use all the means in his power to enforce the observance of the same.

Signed and sealed at Tripoli of Barbary the 3d day of Jumad in the year of the Higera 1211-corresponding with the 4th day of Novr 1796 by

[quade 3]

It was a bad move.

Personally I'd feel better if they did away with the charade of the National Prayer Breakfast altogether.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 18]

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But Ah thawt Obama wuz one o' dem Muzlims.

He seems to be what he wants to be, when he wants to be

See? Just a normal politician

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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It was a bad move.

Personally I'd feel better if they did away with the charade of the National Prayer Breakfast altogether.

But, Andy said in the thread I started that he, (Obama) didnt say that and I was spinning???

WTF

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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But Ah thawt Obama wuz one o' dem Muzlims.

straight from Dune - maybe he's the new Shiite

Budhislamic
Zenshiite
Orange Catholic
Navachristian

in any case - we can't have a president that talks to some mythological father figure for advice

next thing we know, he'll start using crystals and use the term karma all the time

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[popsjumper 2]

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But, Andy said in the thread I started that he, (Obama) didnt say that and I was spinning???

WTF

Don't bring ME into this!


Yes, it was a joke. 908 can speak for himself.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rushmc 18]

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But, Andy said in the thread I started that he, (Obama) didnt say that and I was spinning???

WTF

Don't bring ME into this!


Yes, it was a joke. 908 can speak for himself.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[livendive 8]

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What does that have to do with the title of this thread?

Because it's used by many to criticize conservative politicians because they don't want religion being used as a basis for making law or for running the country.

So it's going to be real interesting to watch these same people squirm now that their great Obama is proclaiming his religious faith.

On the other side of that coin, I'm sure plenty of folks will bitch about this who thought Bush's faith-based charity initiatives were fine.

Personally, I find the whole National Prayer whatever thing distasteful, but so long as it's accepting of multiple beliefs (i.e. only agnostic and atheists are excluded), I guess it's tolerable. With regard to allowing religous beliefs to drive policy, well, all Presidents do that, and it's why I'd like to see a viable atheist candidate. In the interim, I'll admit to some hypocrisy in this regard...if the resulting policies are acceptable to me, I'll try to ignore their inspiration. On the other hand, if I can't stand the resulting policies, I'll blame the inspiration for them, in addition to the idiot who facilitated them. Basically, if a politicians belief system drives him to promote "golden rule" kindness type policies that speak more to global human morality rather than just his particular religion, it's fine. If he uses the same belief system to restrict freedoms or promote hatred, well I consider that bad.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[headoverheels 291]

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It was a bad move.

Personally I'd feel better if they did away with the charade of the National Prayer Breakfast altogether.

Paul and Santorum attended the "ain't got a prayer" breakfast.

[popsjumper 2]

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...In the interim, I'll admit to some hypocrisy in this regard...if the resulting policies are acceptable to me, I'll try to ignore their inspiration.

No hypocrisy there at all. It's the policy that counts, not the inspiration.

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On the other hand, if I can't stand the resulting policies, I'll blame the inspiration for them, in addition to the idiot who facilitated them.

Here's where the hypocrisy comes in...why blame the inspiration? The guy may be an idiot regardless of his inspiration and that's enough to assign blame.

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Basically, if a politicians belief system drives him to promote "golden rule" kindness type policies that speak more to global human morality rather than just his particular religion, it's fine. If he uses the same belief system to restrict freedoms or promote hatred, well I consider that bad.

And there it is, folks! Read and learn.
Good policy, bad policy...take it on that account. That's all that matters.

Unfortunately, many will ignore the policy and only focus on the inspiration.

"If your inspiration is religion-based, then no policy you come up with can be good."
False

...and it goes the other way around, too.

That attitude only creates more dissension and strife while distracting focus on the policy itself.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tkhayes 140]

he's a politician and he's at the National Prayer Breakfast and he's gonna say whatever he needs to say to get his point across, i.e. selling higher tax ideas.

If he was in front of a bunch of Texas oil men, I bet he would not have used that angle.

I expect that Obama i about as Christian s i am, but he has to put on a face to appease the mass that he sits in front of at any given time - they all do.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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he's a politician and he's at the National Prayer Breakfast and he's gonna say whatever he needs to say to get his point across, i.e. selling higher tax ideas.

If he was in front of a bunch of Texas oil men, I bet he would not have used that angle.

I expect that Obama i about as Christian s i am, but he has to put on a face to appease the mass that he sits in front of at any given time - they all do.

Phfft..we all know Obama is a Muslim.

[Niki1 1]

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But Ah thawt Obama wuz one o' dem Muzlims.

He seems to be what he wants to be, when he wants to be

See? Just a normal politician

"Once a man is elected to public office, he's just not fit for honest work anyomore." Will Rogers (I think)

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?