Assisted suicide?

[JerseyShawn 0]

Dr. Jack Kervorkian dies at the age of 83.

http://news.discovery.com/human/jack-kevorkian-assisted-suicide-110603.html#mkcpgn=fbid1

Hats off to Jack for sticking up and fighting for what he believes(d) in. A man way ahead of his time.

Hopefully if I one day have a terminal disease, I can be laid to rest, free from pain in a respectful, painless manner. Of the environment I choose to be set free in, for me outside in the wilderness smelling the trees, watching the clouds go by and listening to the song birds surrounded by my loved ones. No one around for miles. Instead of putting a bullet in my head and disrespecting my body to end the pain.

Would you let a doctor assist you to your death? Or do you find it immoral?

[jimbrown 0]

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Dr. Jack Kervorkian dies at the age of 83.

http://news.discovery.com/human/jack-kevorkian-assisted-suicide-110603.html#mkcpgn=fbid1

Hats off to Jack for sticking up and fighting for what he believes(d) in. A man way ahead of his time.

Hopefully if I one day have a terminal disease, I can be laid to rest, free from pain in a respectful, painless manner. Of the environment I choose to be set free in, for me outside in the wilderness smelling the trees, watching the clouds go by and listening to the song birds surrounded by my loved ones. No one around for miles. Instead of putting a bullet in my head and disrespecting my body to end the pain.

Would you let a doctor assist you to your death? Or do you find it immoral?

I am not one who judges but there is another way not considered .
When one finds themselves overwhelmed by their circumstances in the physical world they can simply choose to disincarnate and a replacement will be immediately sent.
It's all about "free will".
You will never be given a burden greater than our ability to shoulder it.
Don't destroy the body and all those around you without atleast first exploring this option.

Peace,
Jim B

[Amazon 7]

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Dr. Jack Kervorkian dies at the age of 83.

http://news.discovery.com/human/jack-kevorkian-assisted-suicide-110603.html#mkcpgn=fbid1

Hats off to Jack for sticking up and fighting for what he believes(d) in. A man way ahead of his time.

Hopefully if I one day have a terminal disease, I can be laid to rest, free from pain in a respectful, painless manner. Of the environment I choose to be set free in, for me outside in the wilderness smelling the trees, watching the clouds go by and listening to the song birds surrounded by my loved ones. No one around for miles. Instead of putting a bullet in my head and disrespecting my body to end the pain.

Would you let a doctor assist you to your death? Or do you find it immoral?

I have voted for the measures in Oregon and in Washington to legalize a death with dignity.

It is sad that the medical profession and the moralist whackos who are supposed to believe in an afterlife would force families to watch their loved ones die slowly and in pain rather than allowing them to pass on out of this life.

In the case of the "medical professionals" I can only surmise its a desire to dig every last dollar they can out of someone before they become a corpse because if they don't have insurance or assets... they sure manage to help people out the front door with no dignity at all.

[devildog 0]

I'm somewhere in the middle of yes / no, but leaning closer to no than yes which is why I put my vote on no. I completely understand not wanting to die in pain or in an undignified way, and now being in my 4th year of hospice work, I've got a pretty good perspective on it. I won't say all cases, be it theory or practice, should be disallowed, but the vast majority of assisted suicides (or wanting suicide to preempt the perceived death) aren't necessary. The company I work for has been in business close to 30 years, and we do have an option for pain management where they more or less put you in a drug induced coma. It's basically one step away from actually ODing the patient for the purpose of killing them. Pts do have to go to an ethics panel if the need arises. That being said, our current team MD (whose been around a lot longer than I) says we -- the company -- have yet to actually have to resort to a drug coma to get pain under control. I'm always amazed at what all our teams can do, home, hospital, hospice houses, ALF, etc when it comes to getting the hardest, most numerous symptoms under control (well beyond what they ever expected was possible) so that the can have quality with whatever quantity is left.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[jimbrown 0]

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I'm somewhere in the middle of yes / no, but leaning closer to no than yes which is why I put my vote on no. I completely understand not wanting to die in pain or in an undignified way, and now being in my 4th year of hospice work, I've got a pretty good perspective on it. I won't say all cases, be it theory or practice, should be disallowed, but the vast majority of assisted suicides (or wanting suicide to preempt the perceived death) aren't necessary. The company I work for has been in business close to 30 years, and we do have an option for pain management where they more or less put you in a drug induced coma. It's basically one step away from actually ODing the patient for the purpose of killing them. Pts do have to go to an ethics panel if the need arises. That being said, our current team MD (whose been around a lot longer than I) says we -- the company -- have yet to actually have to resort to a drug coma to get pain under control. I'm always amazed at what all our teams can do, home, hospital, hospice houses, ALF, etc when it comes to getting the hardest, most numerous symptoms under control (well beyond what they ever expected was possible) so that the can have quality with whatever quantity is left.

Quick question and time is of the essence.

You are in NewOrleans and the flood waters are rising .
Just 6 hours before the waters submerge the entire facility.
You can't possibly evacuate all the residents given your resources.
How do you proceed?

Peace,
Jim B

[wmw999 2,148]

Is life the be-all and end-all? Do you think that someone should have to live in a drug-induced coma because it's the only alternative to pain?

I'm not sure at all I agree with that. Suicide is sad, and awful for the people left behind. Sometimes, when the reasons are obvious and physical (e.g. unremitting pain, or clear evidence that death is getting nearer like advanced cancer, ALS, etc), then I think the individual's right not to go through to the bitter end probably trumps the family's.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[devildog 0]

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Is life the be-all and end-all? Do you think that someone should have to live in a drug-induced coma because it's the only alternative to pain?

I'm not sure at all I agree with that. Suicide is sad, and awful for the people left behind. Sometimes, when the reasons are obvious and physical (e.g. unremitting pain, or clear evidence that death is getting nearer like advanced cancer, ALS, etc), then I think the individual's right not to go through to the bitter end probably trumps the family's.

Wendy P.

Again, I'm not saying all. I'm saying virtually most. More over, I'm saying we have yet to actually have to use a drug induced coma because the teams as a whole are fantastic at getting pain under control. Pt's are alert, oriented (as much as can be, we have a lot of Alz/Dementia) and die very well for the most part. So when people express as their top concern (which is common) of, "I just don't want to be in pain (I don't want to die horribly)" we are confident we can give them that one wish. Thus, when you say, "I think the individual's right not to go through to the bitter end probably trumps the family's." I agree, but I'm tacking on the caveat that the end doesn't have to be bitter whatsoever.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[devildog 0]

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I'm somewhere in the middle of yes / no, but leaning closer to no than yes which is why I put my vote on no. I completely understand not wanting to die in pain or in an undignified way, and now being in my 4th year of hospice work, I've got a pretty good perspective on it. I won't say all cases, be it theory or practice, should be disallowed, but the vast majority of assisted suicides (or wanting suicide to preempt the perceived death) aren't necessary. The company I work for has been in business close to 30 years, and we do have an option for pain management where they more or less put you in a drug induced coma. It's basically one step away from actually ODing the patient for the purpose of killing them. Pts do have to go to an ethics panel if the need arises. That being said, our current team MD (whose been around a lot longer than I) says we -- the company -- have yet to actually have to resort to a drug coma to get pain under control. I'm always amazed at what all our teams can do, home, hospital, hospice houses, ALF, etc when it comes to getting the hardest, most numerous symptoms under control (well beyond what they ever expected was possible) so that the can have quality with whatever quantity is left.

Quick question and time is of the essence.

You are in NewOrleans and the flood waters are rising .
Just 6 hours before the waters submerge the entire facility.
You can't possibly evacuate all the residents given your resources.
How do you proceed?

Peace,
Jim B

The marine inside me would refuse to give up with 6 hours to spare (or at all). Coming from my own experience, we have evacuation plans put in place the moment any pt signs on with us (and we've been smacked hard by hurricanes). As for specifics, I can't really answer that until I'm put into said position. But if you're asking me something like, "The only two choices are to drown or be allow the pt to OD themselves," I'd hardly classify the latter as an "evil" suicide (and I use that adj loosely). The point I was making in my original is that in most cases, it's not a) die horribly or b) die peacefully by suicide, early. There's quite often another option or two that isn't seen.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[diverborg 0]

At one rather naive point in my life I would've thought there's no way this should be legal.

This past year I watched my father at only 56 years old die a very slow and miserable death from an extremely rare form of slow growing cancer (chordoma) that basically started in his sacrum and eventually spread tumors all throughout his body. I had to watch him day in and day out as the tumors basically attacked his nerves cutoff all of his functions and press against his lungs. He was completely paralyzed and wincing at every breath he took. He survived 3 months in this condition. 6 months before his death while he could still walk he was told by his doctor that he's never seen anybody with that much cancer in their body still alive. But anyway to make a long story short, the hospice nurses never seemed to be able to keep up on the pain meds and were afraid to prescribe him more because his dosage even 2 months before his death was more than they've ever used. It wasn't until we finally got a Dr that knew the cancer well and what he was dealing with that he told them what they should be prescribing. Well the last couple weeks it seemed they finally got the pain under control to an extent judging by the expressions on his face, but my father was so incoherent there was no way to know what he was experiencing. Despite what you always here about people passing away peacefully, this was anything but that and the images will haunt me for the rest of my life.

I remember thinking to myself several times how horrible it must be to be in his shoes and how I probably wouldn't have objected if anybody knowingly prescribed him a lethal dose. I can't say that I would've thought it was right, but it certainly made me realize that I would never judge another individual in that scenario, and that its certainly none of my dang business what other families and their doctors decide upon in situations like these.

[RonD1120 58]

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Would you let a doctor assist you to your death? Or do you find it immoral?

No, I would handle the chore myself. The trick is to make it look like the consequence of unforeseen circumstances. That way people won't call you a coward after you're gone. Usually, the suicidal individual is not concerned with that legacy.

As a Christian, I believe the moment of death should be determined by God's will for the individual. The exception is when the moment of death has been determined by government order. Since all governments are established by God's will for mankind in general, then it is still His will for the individual.

Everyone dies at exactly the right time for their circumstances.

Obamacare has physician assisted suicide built in as a form of social ordering and expense management. It will be accomplished by withholding appropriate medical care.

Or, as the VA does it, (1) by prescribing contraindicated drugs creating system breakdowns within the body, (2) physician incompetence from hiring physicians in training.

I am in the age bracket where I might fall prey to such a health management decision. My peer group realizes the truth of these policies and we generally accept it. We have come to understand long life ain't what it is cracked up to be. However, we strongly oppose socialism as a form of government.

The key concepts are freedom of the individual and accepting personal responsibility.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[DanG 1]

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Obamacare has physician assisted suicide built in as a form of social ordering and expense management. It will be accomplished by withholding appropriate medical care.

That is utter bullshit.

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Since all governments are established by God's will for mankind in general, then it is still His will for the individual.

So is that.

- Dan G

[shropshire 0]

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Obamacare has physician assisted suicide built in as a form of social ordering and expense management. It will be accomplished by withholding appropriate medical care.

That is utter bullshit.

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Since all governments are established by God's will for mankind in general, then it is still His will for the individual.

So is that. - Especially that

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Meso 38]

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Since all governments are established by God's will for mankind in general, then it is still His will for the individual.

Glad to know God supported Apartheid. I'm sure the oppression of millions of people helped mankind a lot.

[Amazon 7]

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Would you let a doctor assist you to your death? Or do you find it immoral?

No, I would handle the chore myself. The trick is to make it look like the consequence of unforeseen circumstances. That way people won't call you a coward after you're gone. Usually, the suicidal individual is not concerned with that legacy.

As a Christian, I believe the moment of death should be determined by God's will for the individual. The exception is when the moment of death has been determined by government order. Since all governments are established by God's will for mankind in general, then it is still His will for the individual.

Everyone dies at exactly the right time for their circumstances.

Obamacare has physician assisted suicide built in as a form of social ordering and expense management. It will be accomplished by withholding appropriate medical care.

Or, as the VA does it, (1) by prescribing contraindicated drugs creating system breakdowns within the body, (2) physician incompetence from hiring physicians in training.

I am in the age bracket where I might fall prey to such a health management decision. My peer group realizes the truth of these policies and we generally accept it. We have come to understand long life ain't what it is cracked up to be. However, we strongly oppose socialism as a form of government.

The key concepts are freedom of the individual and accepting personal responsibility.

OMG........ OBAMA's DEATH PANELS ARE OUT TO GET YOU.....



















RUN AWAY.......RUN AWAY

[rnicks 0]

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the hospice nurses never seemed to be able to keep up on the pain meds and were afraid to prescribe him more because his dosage even 2 months before his death was more than they've ever used. It wasn't until we finally got a Dr that knew the cancer well and what he was dealing with that he told them what they should be prescribing.

Nurses do not prescribe medication. That order must come from the physician. The problem then lies with an inappropriate doctor handling a hospice pt. Many families choose to have the oncologist stay on as the primary because they have formed that relationship and trust that doctor. Although this is understandable from a family's perspective, it is ultimately devestating for the pt.

It boils down to treatment vs comfort. Oncolgist only know how to treat. They can't fathom morphine 100mg/hr when they are use to prescribing 4mg/hr. It seems like it would be simple math; the pt is in pain = give more meds. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way with many doctors. The key is to sign on with a hopice physician. They allow the nurses much more autonomy with pain meds. (They prescibe a scale. Again, nurses do not prescribe) They are also much more liberal with robinol which is key to the last few hours of life. When asking an oncologist for this drug, the most likely response is, "what's robinol for again?"

On a side note, Kevorkian died at my hospital. It would have been interesting to care for him.

[diverborg 0]

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the hospice nurses never seemed to be able to keep up on the pain meds and were afraid to prescribe him more because his dosage even 2 months before his death was more than they've ever used. It wasn't until we finally got a Dr that knew the cancer well and what he was dealing with that he told them what they should be prescribing.

Nurses do not prescribe medication. That order must come from the physician. The problem then lies with an inappropriate doctor handling a hospice pt. Many families choose to have the oncologist stay on as the primary because they have formed that relationship and trust that doctor. Although this is understandable from a family's perspective, it is ultimately devestating for the pt.

It boils down to treatment vs comfort. Oncolgist only know how to treat. They can't fathom morphine 100mg/hr when they are use to prescribing 4mg/hr. It seems like it would be simple math; the pt is in pain = give more meds. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way with many doctors. The key is to sign on with a hopice physician. They allow the nurses much more autonomy with pain meds. (They prescibe a scale. Again, nurses do not prescribe) They are also much more liberal with robinol which is key to the last few hours of life. When asking an oncologist for this drug, the most likely response is, "what's robinol for again?"

On a side note, Kevorkian died at my hospital. It would have been interesting to care for him.

I understand, I just picked some bad wording with the nurses "prescribing". Thats why I also mentioned that it never got better till we switched Dr's that gave them a higher range they were allowed to work with as we felt it was needed. I know it sounded like I was blaming the nurses, but that wasn't my intent.

I don't know all the technicalities to it all, in addition to what kind of doctor we had or switched to. My stepmom took care of most that. I do know the last 6 months he was no longer being treated for the cancer and strictly the pain.

[peregrinerose 0]

You seem to be addressing pain as the reason people would want assisted suicide. That is actually quite low on my list of reasons to want assisted suicide. If my mind is gone, I am no longer me, I am no longer happy, my mind is on it's way out, my body is failing with no realistic hope of recovery, I do not want to be a burden on my family or society as a whole. I also don't want to merely exist. If I'm not truly living, it's time to let me go... and THAT is why I believe assisted suicide should be legal. Pain has nothing to do with it.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[winsor 187]

The most effective and humane means of assisted suicide with which I am familiar involves the use of Special Ops.

The intercranial injection of 147 grains of lead has been shown to produce rapid results, putting an end to suffering for everyone involved.

The recent assisted suicides in Abbotabad, Pakistan show the benefit of this procedure.


BSBD,

Winsor

[RonD1120 58]

No where to run to, no where to hide.

Looks like the VA will be primary. But, I have a plan.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rnicks 0]

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I understand, I just picked some bad wording with the nurses "prescribing". Thats why I also mentioned that it never got better till we switched Dr's that gave them a higher range they were allowed to work with as we felt it was needed. I know it sounded like I was blaming the nurses, but that wasn't my intent.

I don't know all the technicalities to it all, in addition to what kind of doctor we had or switched to. My stepmom took care of most that. I do know the last 6 months he was no longer being treated for the cancer and strictly the pain.

No worries. Nurses tend to get blamed for everything. I'm use to it.
Sorry to hear about your father. Unfortunately, that happens way too often. Hospice is suppose to be about comfort, but many times the pt dies in agony. Combined with the fact cancer (some types, not all) leads to an extremely ugly death, and a doctor who practices in treat mode, the end is bound not to be pretty.

[Bertt 0]

Maybe I'm being too logical here, but:
"all governments are established by God's will..."
"we strongly oppose socialism as a form of government..."

Isn't socialism established by God's will, or do you just not agree with some of the stuff God does??

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[RonD1120 58]

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Maybe I'm being too logical here, but:
"all governments are established by God's will..."
"we strongly oppose socialism as a form of government..."

Isn't socialism established by God's will, or do you just not agree with some of the stuff God does??

You are not being too logical. It is a difference in concepts.

The NT instructs us to submit to our government and not be in rebellion. We are to trust God for the blessings of our lives.

However, since this country was founded on an ideal of freedom for the individual, socialism is repugnant and unacceptable to patriotic Americans.

Socialism becomes evil when the oppressed people suffer. We, the patriots, do not see how making America a socialist country is going to enhance freedom and reduce suffering.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[wmw999 2,148]

Re: "Socialism is evil"
There are many European countries that you might well consider to be socialistic with a significantly higher population happiness measurement, as well as generally higher standard of living.

No, the rich might not be quite as rich, and they're not the same as the US regardless (they're not exactly like each other, either), but I don't think that socialism is automatically evil.

Automatically rejecting something without studying it generally is not a good thing.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,434]

>socialism is repugnant and unacceptable to patriotic Americans.

And yet wounded veterans take full advantage of socialized medicine. Ironic, ain't it.

[RonD1120 58]

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Re: "Socialism is evil"
There are many European countries that you might well consider to be socialistic with a significantly higher population happiness measurement, as well as generally higher standard of living.

No, the rich might not be quite as rich, and they're not the same as the US regardless (they're not exactly like each other, either), but I don't think that socialism is automatically evil.

Automatically rejecting something without studying it generally is not a good thing.

Wendy P.

You didn't quote the rest of the sentence.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.