billvon 2,402 #1 September 1, 2006 This is part of an ongoing discussion in Gear and Rigging; I wanted to repost it here so that people were aware of the safety aspects of using a Vigil during the summer. The company just released a statement concerning several recent misfires. The crux of it is that the Vigil can be sensitive to temperature changes and can misfire when temperatures change rapidly. The risk of this can be reduced by not leaving the Vigil in a car, and by not exposing a Vigil-equpped rig to the sun for long periods on hot days. Feel free to discuss safety aspects of this here, but please bring any device-related discussions over to Gear and Rigging. Statement is below. http://www.vigil.aero/pdf/STATEMENTACTIVATION.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #2 September 1, 2006 QuoteThis is part of an ongoing discussion in Gear and Rigging; I wanted to repost it here so that people were aware of the safety aspects of using a Vigil during the summer. The company just released a statement concerning several recent misfires. The crux of it is that the Vigil can be sensitive to temperature changes and can misfire when temperatures change rapidly. The risk of this can be reduced by not leaving the Vigil in a car, and by not exposing a Vigil-equpped rig to the sun for long periods on hot days. Feel free to discuss safety aspects of this here, but please bring any device-related discussions over to Gear and Rigging. Statement is below. http://www.vigil.aero/pdf/STATEMENTACTIVATION.pdf This sounds like a software problem to me. It fired when the temp changes by about 30C=54F and the ambient pressure was constant and equal to ground level. The software should be using redundant checks of rate of change of pressure, ambient pressure and possibly backing that up with a temperature change. These should be calculated over time periods and correlate to previous time periods. Somewhere there is probably a logic error that only looks at pressure changes, regardless of their cause, and then signals the unit to fire. Measured temperature changes change the ambient pressure and that Vigil acknowledges by stating: "After the switch-on procedure, the temperature adapted itself just over the allowed maximum parameter and implemented by compensation a higher pressure registration. In those rare circumstances, this correction gave the necessary pressure variation parameters to activate the Vigil." IOW, a pressure change because of a temperature change was being equated to a pressure change because of an altitude change. The software logic could not or did not know the difference and fired the unit. In any case a 54F change in temperature is quite common in the desert during the course of a day. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #3 September 2, 2006 Well crap, I was just going to buy a Vigil. Any suggestions or recommendations? Are they going to fix the problem or just put a warning label on it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #4 September 2, 2006 Quote In any case a 54F change in temperature is quite common in the desert during the course of a day. AFAIK one of them fired in England. I doubt they experience such radical changes in temperature.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #5 September 2, 2006 Cypress 2 ! After what happened with AAD fires at WT, and seeing the great customer service with the Cpyress 2, they got me hooked.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytash 0 #6 September 2, 2006 they had one of the hottest summers in a while there this year, and leaving a rig in a car standing in the sun can get really quite hot, even in the UK! tashDon't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sockpuppet 0 #7 September 2, 2006 The unanswered question remains...what would croak faster in a hot car? A vigil or a puppy? wait...this isnt bonfire.. ------ Two of the three voices in my head agree with you. It might actually be unanimous but voice three only speaks Welsh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton2 0 #8 September 3, 2006 So you are not allowed to leave your rig in your car waiting for you to finnish work and drive to the DZ?Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid. . . Also in case you jump a sport rig!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #9 September 3, 2006 QuoteSo you are not allowed to leave your rig in your car waiting for you to finnish work and drive to the DZ? All depends on how hot it gets and for how long. The trunk will not be as hot as the passenger compartment. Since Vigil's advice is so vague, it is useless except to warn you that their device is vulnerable. You would think that testing their design at temperatures should have already been done. No wonder some DZs are grounding them.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivepete 0 #10 September 3, 2006 So one service bulletin about cutters (in Germany, Holland and France mandatory before first jumps) and 3 statements about pressurized planes misfires in air and on the ground related to temperature and so on..... One statement could not be attached but can be seen on the Vigil website at http://www.vigil.aero/pdf/WorldTeamResponse_005.pdf Take also a look at the "live saves" and do the maths... http://www.vigil.aero/life-saving-list.php Pete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #11 September 3, 2006 QuoteThis sounds like a software problem to me. Sounds like a huge Public Relations problem leading to a major credibility issue to me.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #12 September 3, 2006 I've check prices. 50 euro gain is not a big temptation to jump that bandwagon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #13 September 3, 2006 QuoteSo you are not allowed to leave your rig in your car waiting for you to finnish work and drive to the DZ? If you leave it turned off, then leave it outside to cool back to ambient before turning it on, you should be fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #14 September 3, 2006 QuoteI've check prices. 50 euro gain is not a big temptation to jump that bandwagon. ????????????? Thanks Dave. I agree with Phoenixipr on that statement.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #15 September 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteI've check prices. 50 euro gain is not a big temptation to jump that bandwagon. ????????????? I believe he's saying that the Vigil is EUR 50 cheaper than a Cypres2, and that it's not worth saving the difference given the problems encountered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #16 September 4, 2006 QuoteI've check prices. 50 euro gain is not a big temptation to jump that bandwagon. How about the 4 year factory check hassle and the 12 year time out hassle and the fancy $60 battery hassle. My last 4 year check took all summer long. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #17 September 4, 2006 QuoteQuoteSo you are not allowed to leave your rig in your car waiting for you to finnish work and drive to the DZ? If you leave it turned off, then leave it outside to cool back to ambient before turning it on, you should be fine. If only we knew how long it takes a unit that is insulated (buried inside the rig) takes to heat up/cool down, but we don't, so it is all a guess.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #18 September 4, 2006 QuoteHow about the 4 year factory check hassle and the 12 year time out hassle and the fancy $60 battery hassle. My last 4 year check took all summer long. MadMadUnsure I think that like other devices such as reserves, aircraft, etc, a other Aperiodic inspection and maintenence is a great idea. Other aad' require batteries too. As for the life span, do you have a VCR that is over 12 years old? Would you trust all the internal parts to be within the original manufactuer's specs? Electrical components wear out, just like mechanical componets. It can save your life if you need it and it needs to fire when you need it and not fire when you don't. With something that important, I would want maintenance, inspections, and a life span. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #19 September 4, 2006 You are right, but I was right too. Your point is TCO and my was just the price. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #20 September 4, 2006 Cypres 2 eliminates the $85 Batteries now. TCO on a Cypres2 is less then a Cypres because of this.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimjumper 25 #21 September 5, 2006 I know a source that has about 20 FXC's he'd be happy to sell really cheap(>$30)! Probably just as reliable. Hee, Hee!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #22 September 5, 2006 QuoteHow about the 4 year factory check hassle and the 12 year time out hassle and the fancy $60 battery hassle. My last 4 year check took all summer long. I would rather have those problems than an AAD firing when it is not supposed to fire. My opinion."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #23 September 5, 2006 QuoteMy last 4 year check took all summer long. Doesn't that mean that it had some problem, perhaps it needed to be sent to Germany for more extensive repair? They test the units at environmental extremes (temp/vibration), test the accuracy and resolution of the sensors, etc. If your unit was functioning correctly, it ran through its self test like usual when you had it, then the maintenance check may have found a bad component or bit of wiring that only presented itself at high temperature, for instance. This is a good argument for the need to do such complete checks. I have long argued that passing the self test is not a reliable indicator that everything is good inside.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #24 September 5, 2006 Quote All depends on how hot it gets and for how long. The trunk will not be as hot as the passenger compartment. If you have a trunk. So how many Vigils did they sell in the last year? This sudden spike in problems has to be from the now significant number in use. Hope they work it all out, but I'm happier that I found a good price on a NIB C2 now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #25 September 5, 2006 Vigil is claiming that they now have over 5000 units in the field in operation.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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