California must Reduce its Prison Population by a Third say Federal Judges

[lawrocket 3]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090210/ts_alt_afp/usjusticeprisoncalifornia_20090210162106

It's about friggin time. Most people, perhaps, don't have much of an idea about the state of health care in California prisons. Well, it sucks. It's probably worse than nothing.

We've got prisons operating at, what, 170 percent capacity? PEople are going to prison for what are often minor things. They've gotta be paid for, and interestingly enough people don't want to pay for it.

This issue has so many side issues and policies going with it. I see, in my arrogant opinion:
1) An overly broad and unjust penal code;
2) An issue with socialized medicine;
3) Issues of government funding PERIOD; and
4) An attorney general who will argue keeping people crowded and without health care way more constitutionally justified than banning gay marriage (of course, he's actually doign his job here).

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[normiss 622]

No disagreement here.

Maybe we should stop incarcerating for drug offenses, vertically mounted license plates, DUI offenses...and any other NON-VIOLENT crimes?

That "overly broad and unjust penal code" has gotten out of hand.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

...DUI offenses...and any other NON-VIOLENT crimes...

Thousands of people are killed every year by drunk drivers in traffic collisions that are VERY violent.

The message your suggestion would send is that it's okay to act negligently and endanger the lives of others, as long as you're lucky. And that's a very bad idea.

[billvon 2,400]

>The message your suggestion would send is that it's okay to act
>negligently and endanger the lives of others, as long as you're lucky. And
>that's a very bad idea.

No one is suggesting it's OK to act negligently and endanger the lives of others. They are just suggesting that not everyone has to go to jail for a long time for every nonviolent offense.

[derrickiv 0]

The person he quoted mentioned DUI.. that's the reference. I'm of the opinion, a DUI/DWI/whatever, should always be jail time.. too many people die for no reason because of this.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

>The message your suggestion would send is that it's okay to act
>negligently and endanger the lives of others, as long as you're lucky. And
>that's a very bad idea.

No one is suggesting it's OK to act negligently and endanger the lives of others. They are just suggesting that not everyone has to go to jail for a long time for every nonviolent offense.

And he's saying that DUI is not a nonviolent offense.

Given how little jail we give to DUIs, there's not much savings there. OTOH, doing freeway trash duty every weekend for the next couple years will make an impression that's probably more effective than 2 weeks in county.

[billvon 2,400]

>And he's saying that DUI is not a nonviolent offense.

By that definition, accidental discharge of a gun in your house or failure to put a fence around a pool is a violent offense. But I don't think anyone uses such a definition.

>OTOH, doing freeway trash duty every weekend for the next couple years
>will make an impression that's probably more effective than 2 weeks in county.

Good idea there.

[ryoder 1,384]

Quote

No disagreement here.

Maybe we should stop incarcerating for drug offenses, vertically mounted license plates, DUI offenses...and any other NON-VIOLENT crimes?

Take out "DUI offenses", and substitute sex "crimes" between consenting partners, and I agree.

Someone who keeps driving drunk and endangering other people needs to be locked up, if they are too stupid to stop.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

Take out "DUI offenses", and substitute sex "crimes" between consenting partners, and I agree.

Someone who keeps driving drunk and endangering other people needs to be locked up, if they are too stupid to stop.

How many people are incarcerated for consensual sex crimes?
I have to agree with putting people in jail for DUIs. Most people who drive drunk are not career criminals. These are the sort of people for whom deterrence clearly does work (people like me).

[normiss 622]

Pardon my oversight of DUI manslaughter.
After my best friend was killed this way and the drunk druggie that killed him received 10 years probation.
Tough sentence there.

Yes violent offenders need jail time. Alcoholics do not always meet this criteria from what I see.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

>And he's saying that DUI is not a nonviolent offense.

By that definition, accidental discharge of a gun in your house or failure to put a fence around a pool is a violent offense. But I don't think anyone uses such a definition.

With drunk driving still killing close to 20,000 a year, we're past the point where we can pretend that it's just an occasional accident. We have to view it the way most of Europe views it, as a violent crime against society with a lot of collateral damage.

An AD that results in someone getting shot is a violent crime to me. Just shooting the wall...probably not. And a pool accident is a pool accident.

[ryoder 1,384]

Quote

How many people are incarcerated for consensual sex crimes?

Well, the latest idiocy in LE and prosecutors twisting laws in ways that were never intended, is charging kids under 18 with child pornography for sending naked photos of themselves to each other. It seems like I'm hearing of yet another case of this every week.

Great idea; Turn a kid into a registered sex offender and ruin his life over a harmless act as a kid.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[normiss 622]

Public moonings have warranted the same sentence.

[lawrocket 3]

These discussions are what I'm getting at. Prison is no longer reserved for the worst. The death penalty is no longer reserved for the worst of the worst.

Example of what I see with this? Here in Fresno a woman named Larissa Schuster decided to kill her husband. She needed help. Enter employee James Fagone - I think he was 20 or 21 - who had no idea she planned to kill him. He (dumb ass) was gonna help her rob him. Then her true plans took over.

He later was taken in and opened up, confeesed his whole involvement, didn't take a plea deal and is now doing life without possibility of parole for felony murder.

Not a great dude but life without parole? It's the law...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,400]

>An AD that results in someone getting shot is a violent crime to me.
>Just shooting the wall...probably not.

Excellent example. And in a similar manner, a drunk driver who injures someone is guilty of a violent crime. One who just plain drives home and gets pulled over at a sobriety checkpoint is not. It's still a crime, and he should still be penalized heavily, but I don't rank him at the same level as someone who shot a clerk during a robbery attempt.

[happythoughts 0]

The relationship of "DUI" offenses and the Calif problem
is the criminalization of the entire population.

In Florida, BAC of .08 is a DUI.
The estimate is that it takes one hour for each
beer to get out of your system. If you drink two
beers in one hour and leave a bar, you are over
the legal limit.

So, essentially 98% of people that I know have been over
the DUI limit before. Enforcement at that level has
developed into a revenue stream, and not protecting
the public.

The prison system is now an industry.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

The prison system is now an industry.

The penal industrial complex.

[Andy9o8 0]

I think the discussion has gotten bogged down too much on the DUI issue. And, certainly some recidivist non-violent offenders do deserve jail time, such as people who commit burglary or steal cars over and over and over again. At some point, guys like that gotta do time if they just won't stop.

I think the real problem with jail/prison overcrowding in the US are the non-violent drug offenders. Remove, say, 80% of that cohort alone from the jail/prison population and the reduction in overcrowding will be enormous.

Side note: I've always thought that "Three strikes and you're out" laws are idiotic, not the least of which for the stupidly arbitrary way the threshold was derived. You-all realize, of course, that if the game of baseball had 5 strikes instead of 3, these moronic laws would have 5 "strikes" instead of 3. It's these kinds of fools (who wrote & then copy-catted the laws) that I find it hard to suffer.

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Quote

The prison system is now an industry.

The penal industrial complex.

Yep. Lots of prisons are private companies now and even more services in prisons are contracted out.

Running a prison at 170% capacity? Huge profit margin even with the lawsuits for neglect and accidental death. They're dealing in a "commodity" that noone really gives a shit about.

But like all heartless moneymaking schemes greed gets the best of them and they go overboard to the point that people go "someone's got to do something." They get their wrists publicly slapped and then in a few years back to business as usual.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[normiss 622]

I got quite a chuckle the other night watching MSNBC's show on the Marijuana industry in the US.
California both supports it and fights it at the same time. Idiots.
They collect millions from legal sale taxes...and then a few billion to fight it. WTF is up with this?

Crime DOES indeed pay. Look at our government and the penal corporations.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

In Florida, BAC of .08 is a DUI.
The estimate is that it takes one hour for each
beer to get out of your system. If you drink two
beers in one hour and leave a bar, you are over
the legal limit.

This is not correct, unless your body weight is so low that one beer equal .08. Most of us would be well under the limit still.

One big caveat to these simple numbers is that one GOOD beer is probably more alcoholic, and bigger, than their reference "one can of Bud."

[FreeflyChile 0]

Quote

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090210/ts_alt_afp/usjusticeprisoncalifornia_20090210162106

It's about friggin time. Most people, perhaps, don't have much of an idea about the state of health care in California prisons. Well, it sucks. It's probably worse than nothing.

We've got prisons operating at, what, 170 percent capacity? PEople are going to prison for what are often minor things. They've gotta be paid for, and interestingly enough people don't want to pay for it.

This issue has so many side issues and policies going with it. I see, in my arrogant opinion:
1) An overly broad and unjust penal code;
2) An issue with socialized medicine;
3) Issues of government funding PERIOD; and
4) An attorney general who will argue keeping people crowded and without health care way more constitutionally justified than banning gay marriage (of course, he's actually doign his job here).

Another solution to the overcrowded prisons...

...hire better defense attorneys!

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Quote

In Florida, BAC of .08 is a DUI.
The estimate is that it takes one hour for each
beer to get out of your system. If you drink two
beers in one hour and leave a bar, you are over
the legal limit.

This is not correct, unless your body weight is so low that one beer equal .08. Most of us would be well under the limit still.

One big caveat to these simple numbers is that one GOOD beer is probably more alcoholic, and bigger, than their reference "one can of Bud."

I looked it up. It depends on your weight.
You are correct - One beer will not put you over the
limit unless you weigh less than 110.
At 180 lbs, three beers will (and that is many people).

clicky

Over the course of an hour, the alcohol metabolizes
at a rate of .015. So, in two hours .03 metabolizes.
However, if you had 4 beers in 2 hours, you are way
over the limit.

[marks2065 0]

although i think some of the people in the system should be let out due to stupid nonviolent situations, letting them out know would possibly be a dissaster. what do 50,000 criminals do when let out jail with no money and an unemployment rate that is soring?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

although i think some of the people in the system should be let out due to stupid nonviolent situations, letting them out know would possibly be a dissaster. what do 50,000 criminals do when let out jail with no money and an unemployment rate that is soring?

Right after the velvet revolution in Czechoslovakia they declared a general amnesty. The really bad guys were re-incarcerated pretty quickly, but the huge influx of former prisoners to the streets of Prague during really tough economic times made the street very exiting.