What good have the Vatican done for the people?

[434 2]

I am reading about the Catholicism, and wondering what good have they done for their people?

In my opinion I truly believe they have done far more harm than any other religion, and are still hurting their people treathening with fire and smoke for ever!

When I read the old testament I get the feeling, this is the word from the devil himselves!

I do read religious magazines and newspapers to find what they so truly believe, but I can not see it!

Please enlighten me........

[jclalor 12]

The Catholics have done some good things, however.... They have done far more harm than good. Thier position on birth control continues to ensure suffering in third world countries for generations to come. Thier policy on divorice will keep women in loveless and abusive marriages until thier death. Thier view on stem cell recearch will hinder progress that could cure many of our worst diseases. The list goes on.
I have wrote about the fraud of mother Therses numerous times here but I think most people think I am nuts. For a lady that accepted hundreds of millions of dollars and then spent the vast majority of it on nunnerys instead of providing just the basics for the sick and dying she claimed to be helping is beyond contempt. The fact is she enjoyed the suffering of others, these are not my words but hers. Her charity was the only one in India that refusesd to open the books.


http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/mother.htm

http://www.deeshaa.org/2005/08/04/abusing-children-teresa-style/

[SpeedRacer 1]

When you read the Old Testament you are seeing the experience of God through the eyes of people living in ancient times. I don't think most modern people realize just what a nasty, brutal time to live that was compared to now.

Wholesale slaughter of neighboring nations was par for the course. Putting EVERYONE to the sword. Rounding up children/young teens as slaves. Human sacrifice. All kinds of nasty shit. All that harsh stuff you read in the OT was what life was like back then, not just something the Israelites invented. In fact, the Israelites were a step above the Canaanites, in that at least they didn't allow human sacrifices. The Canaanites would actually sacrifice THEIR OWN children to their God, Baal.

The Catholic Church does enormous amounts of good for the poor all over the world. Unfortunately, good news doesn't get all the press that bad news does, so the thousands of Catholics who are alleviating the suffering of the poor don't get much attention.

Catholic charities helped out during Hurricane Katrina, for example.

http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=1174

Another group that I contribute to every year is the St. Vincent de Paul society, which helps out the poor and the homeless.

In addition, under Pope John Paul II, the Vatican was pivotal in inspiring the movement, begun in Poland, which led to the breakdown of the de-humanizing Soviet Union system of government. During an interview years later, Gorbachev himself said that the most important figure leading to the collapse of Soviet communism was Pope John Paul II.

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[jakee 1,280]

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When you read the Old Testament you are seeing the experience of God through the eyes of people living in ancient times. I don't think most modern people realize just what a nasty, brutal time to live that was compared to now.

Wholesale slaughter of neighboring nations was par for the course. Putting EVERYONE to the sword. Rounding up children/young teens as slaves. Human sacrifice. All kinds of nasty shit. All that harsh stuff you read in the OT was what life was like back then, not just something the Israelites invented.

And yet, despite having a direct line to the supreme moral force in the universe, the Israelites were no better than anyone else. Wierd.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[SpeedRacer 1]

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When you read the Old Testament you are seeing the experience of God through the eyes of people living in ancient times. I don't think most modern people realize just what a nasty, brutal time to live that was compared to now.

Wholesale slaughter of neighboring nations was par for the course. Putting EVERYONE to the sword. Rounding up children/young teens as slaves. Human sacrifice. All kinds of nasty shit. All that harsh stuff you read in the OT was what life was like back then, not just something the Israelites invented.

And yet, despite having a direct line to the supreme moral force in the universe, the Israelites were no better than anyone else. Wierd.

No they weren't. And if you read the Old Testament, you find that the Israelites were extremely honest about that. For example, after the big split-up after Solomon, when the Judahites split off from the other Israelites, they are perfectly honest about how both groups turned away from God most of the time.
And how that contributed to disunity & ultimately, how it led to their being conquered by the Babylonians in the 6th century BC. It is actually surprising how they didn't try to paint themselves in a better light.

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[lawrocket 3]

As an atheist, the Vatican is not for me.

However, belief in God has done wondrous things for millions - if not billions. Recall that it was the Church who performed the role of charity before the govt.

Indeed - take a look at anything most governments have ever done and still do. Odds are the Vatican did it first.

So if you are a fan of socialism, war, charity, nationalism, health care or anything else - look to the Vatican. They did it first.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[quade 3]

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So if you are a fan of socialism, war, charity, nationalism, health care or anything else - look to the Vatican. They did it first.

Oh dear no. I'm going to have to say the Romans and Greeks predated the Vatican on just about every aspect of life.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[derrickiv 0]

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When I read the old testament I get the feeling, this is the word from the devil himselves!

You know that the Old Testament didn't originate with the Vatican right? And you know that the Old Testament is referred to by all Christian denominations?

[Muenkel 0]

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When I read the old testament I get the feeling, this is the word from the devil himselves!

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You know that the Old Testament didn't originate with the Vatican right? And you know that the Old Testament is referred to by all Christian denominations?

Don't forget Judaeism.

Anyway, this is just another 'I hate Catholicism' thread. If anyone has to ask what good has come from the Vatican, they never really studied Catholicism. They've never really lived Catholicism. They've never truly understood the true spirituality of Catholicism.

To the OP and anyone else, if you truly have an open mind to understanding Catholicism start with the Ten Commandments in the 1st Testament and then skip to the Beattitudes in the New Testament. If the human race truly lived by these laws, we would not be dealing with many (if not all) of the problems that are discussed in this forum. Perhaps start with 'Thou shalt not steal' or 'Thou shalt not lie'.

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Chris

[jakee 1,280]

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So if you are a fan of socialism, war, charity, nationalism, health care or anything else - look to the Vatican. They did it first.

Oh dear no. I'm going to have to say the Romans and Greeks predated the Vatican on just about every aspect of life.

And that's only the Eurocentric view.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,280]

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Perhaps start with 'Thou shalt not steal' or 'Thou shalt not lie'.

That Jesus had some crazy new ideas, didn't he?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[schmit.paul 0]

I think a lot of you would enjoy listening to Christopher Hitchens in his many public debates with notable religious "authorities." Very witty and extremely intelligent, and unforgiving toward those who suppose that divine dictatorship is the only means by which humans can obtain a moral compass.

Personally, as a professional scientist, but more importantly, as a person moved to belief only by rational argument and evidence, I've divorced myself from religion a long time ago. The simplest explanation for our collective morality is the evolutionary imperative to survive...most of our moral notions (i.e. some of the 10 Commandments, even though these Commandments seem somewhat petty and limited...the first five being the admonishments of a jealous god, the last five failing to mention rape, cruel and unusual punishment/torture, etc etc) increase our society's viability, and as such gives us greater fitness for survival. Therefore we are evolutionarily inclined to form cooperative societies in order for our species to thrive and persist.

The texts of the major religions serve as interesting moral templates, but should never be taken for more than that, *especially* not as a divine imperative. And as was said above, they are largely reflections of more barbaric times, and so selective adherence is not just an option - it's a must. The Catholic Church is particularly obnoxious because of its widespread infrastructure and ties to national governments as well as its slow, reluctant responses to shifts in general public morality. But I suppose without church many people would feel a disconnect from their communities and fellow humans without that Sunday morning pretext to meet up. If only the Church would come clean, admit they have no proof that God exists, and just start holding community-wide Sunday bbq's!

Personally, I'm thrilled to see so many intelligent atheists/agnostics in the skydiving community...not to mention you all know a much better way to spend your Sundays!

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than knowledge." ---Charles Darwin

[Muenkel 0]

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(i.e. some of the 10 Commandments, even though these Commandments seem somewhat petty and limited...the first five being the admonishments of a jealous god, the last five failing to mention rape, cruel and unusual punishment/torture, etc etc)

Isn't it great that we live in a country that allows freedom of religion? Wouldn't it be even better if we atleast showed some respect to those who believe in a different religion?

Your quote above is incorrect in regard to Catholic teaching. This is a thread about Catholicism. Below are the 10 Commandments as taught by the Catholic Church. Notice that they do cover 'rape and cruel and unusual punishment/torture'. Each Commandment has 'sub-topics' (for lack of a better term). In regard to rape, see #6 & 10. In regard to cruel and unusual punishment/torture, see #5.

Roman Catholic and Lutheran Christianity

Main article: The Ten Commandments in Roman Catholic theology
The Lutheran (Protestant) and Roman Catholic division of the commandments both follow the one established by St. Augustine, following the then current synagogue scribal division. The first three commandments govern the relationship between God and humans, the fourth through eighth govern public relationships between people, and the last two govern private thoughts. For additional information on the Catholic understanding of the Ten Commandments, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), sections 2052–2557. References to the Catechism are provided below for each commandment as well as the interpretation used by Lutherans and Catholics. The following text is from Deuteronomy 5:6–5:21 NRSV

1. "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Catholic teaching distinguishes between dulia—paying honor, respect and veneration to saints and also indirectly to God through contemplation of objects such as paintings and statues—and latria— adoration directed to God alone. (See Catechism 2084–2141.)

2. "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name."

This commandment prohibits not just swearing but also the misappropriation of religious language in order to commit a crime, participating in occult practices, and blaspheming against places or people that are holy to God. (See Catechism 2142–2167.)

3. "Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you. Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."

4. "Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you."

This commandment emphasizes the family as part of God's design, as well as an extended metaphor that God uses for his relationship with his creation. (See Catechism 2197–2257.)

5. "(Roman Catholic) You shall not kill / (Lutheran) You shall not murder"

The right of states to execute criminals is not absolutely forbidden by this commandment. However, other methods of protecting society (incarceration, rehabilitation) are increasingly available and more in keeping with other Christian moral teaching. Catholics (along with many Lutherans) also consider abortion sinful and a violation of this commandment. War, if rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy are met (that is, the "use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated"), is not a violation because "governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed." (See Catechism 2258–2330.)

6. "Neither shall you commit adultery."

Adultery is the breaking of the holy bond between husband and wife, and is thus a sacrilege. This commandment includes not just the act of adultery, but lust as well. (See Catechism 2331–2400.)

7. "Neither shall you steal." (See Catechism 2401–2463.)

8. "Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor."

This commandment forbids misrepresenting the truth in relations with others. This also forbids lying. (See Catechism 2464–2513.)

9. "Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife."
(See Catechism 2514–2533.)

10. "Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
(See Catechism 2534–2557.)

The Commandments are seen as general "subject headings" for moral theology, in addition to being specific commandments in themselves. Thus, the commandment to honor father and mother is seen as a heading for a general rule to respect legitimate authority, including the authority of the state. The commandment not to commit adultery is traditionally taken to be a heading for a general rule to be sexually pure, the specific content of the purity depending, of course, on whether one is married or not. In this way, the Ten Commandments can be seen as dividing up all of morality.They are also to be seen as the most fundamental of guidance on how to achieve progress in meditation or prayer - the obvious example being that it would be difficult to consider a rising spirt when the heart was planning murder.

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Chris

[jakee 1,280]

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Wouldn't it be even better if we atleast showed some respect to those who believe in a different religion?

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,

Riiiight.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[riddler 0]

How about entertainment value? When I was a kid, everyone was all over the gossip about the Prince and Princess of Wales. Then it got old, Diana died, and all we had was stupid celebrity gossip.

But now, with the papal reinstatement of bishop Richard Williamson, a holocaust denier, things are getting mighty interesting over there. Lots of good sex gossip (if you count priests molesting alter-boys as sex), a few end-of-the-world tidbits. It all has the making of a good Hallmark special. People need stuff to gossip about.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[schmit.paul 0]

#3's a real interesting one. Not only does it passively endorse slavery (not surprising though, considering the temporal origin of the Old Testament and the powerful, aristocratic people who put it together), but also says nothing about your wife getting to rest...now, I know adult women weren't necessarily starting fortune 500 companies back in the day, but either the OT trivializes their domestic duties as something less than work and not to be recognized on the Sabbath (I think Oprah and her legion of loyal followers would beg to differ), or perhaps the wife falls under the category of "female slave." Either way, something is lacking there. We can do this all day, the OT is a very complex, interesting, but ultimately somewhat antiquated book of morality--certainly a worthy source for a basic moral code, but only if viewed through a foggy lens. I don't mean to disrespect your belief system or Catholicism specifically--I mean to point out the inherent absurdity in all organized religion if taken too seriously. But that's not to say I don't recognize the value religion has as a way to instill basic moral values and a sense of community...but most people take it much farther than that, some are even willing to die for it, without a shred of proof that their belief system is any more valid than that belonging to the person they are fighting. Shalom. (I'm not Jewish, but that word encompasses a lot of good sentiments in a nice, succinct manner)

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than knowledge." ---Charles Darwin

[Muenkel 0]

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But that's not to say I don't recognize the value religion has as a way to instill basic moral values and a sense of community...but most people take it much farther than that, some are even willing to die for it, without a shred of proof that their belief system is any more valid than that belonging to the person they are fighting. Shalom. (I'm not Jewish, but that word encompasses a lot of good sentiments in a nice, succinct manner)

I am definitely willing to die for my faith. My plan on earth is my short term goal. Where I spend eternity is my long term goal.
BTW, thank you for the 'shalom'. I happen to really like the meaning behind that word. I had the good fortune of growing up in an area that had a large Jewish population. My Jewish friends taught me a lot about their faith and customs. I'm a better man for it.

Shalom.

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Chris

[Andy9o8 0]

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What good have the Vatican done for the people?

An endless supply of material for standup comedians.

[434 2]

It have to be more serious than that, since one billion people believe in the message they are giving! People is willing to die for it, and poor people is paying what they can give, to make sure their church look good! (The church they have, reflect how much they give. Especially in poor places you see almost finished churches, just waiting for donation to make it finished)

I dont know where to start, it seems like an endless power triumph. It is a very rich church community, and have so much power over peoples life world over. For them to make some charity their way, to make their way to the peoples hearth is just a small gest and a investment. It is almost impossible to understand how they managed to impact so huge masses of people in so many cultures. But we do know some simple rules that is common and used in many different ways. An enemy, guilt, and promise of "gold". I should also add an "hero" that is almost like an human.

On the good side it gives people hope there is more to come after this life, and also gives them structure to build their lives on. A strong tribe to feel belonging to.

On the bad side it gives people guilt, messes with cultures, directly involve in countries politics, birth control (guilt, fire and smoke) take money from the poor, and I am going to stop before I go and talk about all the wars, and messing with converting tribes with sword,guns and bombs, if not the fire and smoke worked out. Witch hunting in many different ways during the centuries.

I am still wondering why this is so much more correct than any other religion, and why they know they are right? If they was born in an other culture, would they believe as strong as they do now just because they need something to believe and follow?

People can be good even they do not have any god to believe in. Goodness do not come from a book. Charity is not a Christian invent, but religion it is a very good political structure to make people to work for you.

[434 2]

I do not "hate Catholicism" I am just surprised to see so much people, so involved in something I can not see!

[SpeedRacer 1]

I keep hearing from the non-religious that Chrisitianity is all about guilt trips. If that were true, the religion would never survive. People aren't going to remain members of a church if all it does is make you feel like shit about yourself every Sunday morning.

So if the guilt thing is all you can see, you're obviously not getting the whole picture.

Also, many of the people who criticize religion the most, are the same people who are into guilt-mongering about other issues: ie: you should feel guilty for being American/Western, or feel guilty about being white, or middle class, or just being a human being who consumes natural resources, or whatever. The whole crowd that believes in: "Save the Planet, Kill yourself!"

The problem with the "politically-correct" form of guilt-mongering is that they want you to feel guilty about stuff you can't do anything about.

In the Church, you are not supposed to wallow in guilt about a sin you've committed. You are supposed to face up to it, confess it (Catholics may confess in front of a priest, Protestants may confess in private) & make amends if you can, and then MOVE ON. It is a process of DEALING with sin, not sitting there wallowing in guilt about it.

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[434 2]

When I worked as an security on the streets, I had to deal with drug addicts, and I asked one "customer" once why he cintinued doing this to him selves? His answer was "When I am on drugs, I have only one problem, and that is to get my next shot! when I am sober, I have every kind of a problem to deal with, so for me it is easier to stay on drugs"

Our society is buildt on christian values, and we have been raised in sin and guilt! It is our culture! For an christian it is easy, he can make the sin, and then go and make a prayer! He is done with his guilt. Jesus forgive the sinner........who regret.

[pirana 0]

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Wholesale slaughter of neighboring nations was par for the course. Putting EVERYONE to the sword. Rounding up children/young teens as slaves. Human sacrifice. All kinds of nasty shit.

Sounds like Darfur today.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Wholesale slaughter of neighboring nations was par for the course. Putting EVERYONE to the sword. Rounding up children/young teens as slaves. Human sacrifice. All kinds of nasty shit.

Sounds like Darfur today.

Sadly, you are correct.

The only difference is that in modern times there is some sort of a moral yardstick that we use to judge atrocites like this when they happen.

Back in ancient times, that was just the normal way of things. In many ancient cultures, peace was often considered an interruption of war, not the other way around.

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[dmkellett 0]

Since SIN is an entirely HUMAN construct, I have no problem in comiting as much as I can get away with. I have yet to feel the need to confess any of it, or that it's going to send me to a hot place, or a cloudy place if I confess. I am happy to SIN as I am not constricted by a faith dominated by madmen. Are you ?