What good have the Vatican done for the people?

[Amazon 7]

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Seems to me having the priest listening to everyones sins in the old days had more to do with knowledge, power and control.

It seems that J. Edgar Hoover certainly used his knowledge of the private lives of politicians to keep them in line.

[vortexring 0]

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Seems to me having the priest listening to everyones sins in the old days had more to do with knowledge, power and control.

What a terrible, cynical suggestion! Don't you know they're only there to help?

I see the joke mate, but let's not forget I mention 'old days'. . . or are the objectives still the same???

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

Knowledge can give you power, which can then give you control.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Amazon 7]

The church was certainly a parasitic organism in most of the courts of Europe for over a thousand years. Collecting all those secrets certainly kept the Popes in a postion of power far greater than they could otherwise have sustained.

[vortexring 0]

Perhaps. I wonder though; lets imagine an 'old day' Pope decides to fundamentally change something. And then equally, a modern day Pope decides to change something different, but as equally fundamental. Who do you think might have the greater potential to make the change?

p.s. What happens when the Pope dies?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Amazon 7]

The Old Days Pope could and did turn Europe upsdie down several times.... The Old Days Pope could split the world up between the Portugese and the Spanish...

The New Days Pope....not so much.. BUT he is still in control of a few hundred million followers... so he does still have power that he can and does wield..

[vortexring 0]

Yes, yes! But what happens when the Pope dies?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Capt.Slog 0]

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Yes, yes! But what happens when the Pope dies?

They bury him?

[Amazon 7]

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Yes, yes! But what happens when the Pope dies?

Its the end of Days

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes

[vortexring 0]

Well, at least for the one who died I'd hope! What happens when the Pope dies?

Another one 'popes' up my dear!





Soz.


I'll get my coat . . .

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[dmkellett 0]

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You can fool a priest in confession but you are not fooling God.

Which of course begs the question: Why then do you need the intercessor in the first place?

Oh, I can answer that. The priest drafts the motion and makes sure it's timely filed in the correct office.

You NEARLY got it right buddy. Should have read :

The priest drafts the motion and makes sure it's SHOVED in the HOLY ORIFICE.

[Muenkel 0]

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Yeah I only went to Catholic schools for a couple years... my bad.

I just go by what I saw when my stepfather required us to go to confessions... go to mass... and attend school with those wonderful nuns.... then again he liked to molest little children.. I wonder if he got forgiveness for that. Luckily my mother only put up with his abusing us for a couple years.

Jeanne,

While I deeply sympathize with your very painful experience as a child, the actions of your stepfather and the nuns you encountered have nothing to do with the true teachings of the Catholic Church in regard to the Sacrament of Confession.

Sweet friend, please believe me when I say that it does pain me to hear what you experienced as a child. I'm glad your mother put an end to it.

_________________________________________
Chris

[Coreece 190]

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the actions of your stepfather and the nuns you encountered have nothing to do with the true teachings of the Catholic Church

I to was raised Catholic - Altar server, same Catholic school for 13 years...very close knit...our teachers taught our parents. There are some very positive aspects of the Catholic Church, no doubt...most catholics are not the Boondock Saint/Italian Mafia type catholics....

...sigh....but, where do these techings of the Catholic Church Come from, because many of them sure as hell ain't comming from the Bible...

When you stray from the basic MESSAGE of the Bible (LOVE) It becomes preverted and man thinks that they are God....and in their ignorant overzealosness they judge, opress and kill.

It is the system and it's leaders who are corrupted with power who are the problem.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Muenkel 0]

The Catholic Church's teachings are absolutely from the Bible as interpreted by the Magisterium, theologians and the pope as inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church began with the New Testament, however, it does not dismiss the Old Testament.

No human is perfect and yes, corruption does exist. That does not mean all are corrupt. You are correct in stating that the basic message of the Bible is love. That includes divine love as well as love for your fellow man. As I have stated several times in SC, passing judgment on others, oppressing others and killing others are grave sins according to the Catholic faith.

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It is the system and it's leaders who are corrupted with power who are the problem.

I don't completely understand what you are saying here. Throughout the history of Catholicism there has definitely been leaders corrupted with power, however, I do not believe the system is broken. No human can break the true teachings of Catholicism. If only 1 person on earth is practicing true Catholicism the faith is still intact. The core of Catholicism is the Holy Trinity which is completely perfect and can never be corrupted.

_________________________________________
Chris

[Coreece 190]

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The Catholic Church's teachings are absolutely from the Bible as interpreted by the Magisterium, theologians and the pope as inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church began with the New Testament, however, it does not dismiss the Old Testament.

You forgot the apocrypha which by definition means writings of doubtful authorship or authenticity.

The following is just of one of many Catholic teachings that are not Biblical and are in fact anti-thetical to it.

The Mass:
According to the Council of Trent, the Mass is the same sacrafice as Jesus' Crucifixtion except that this time it's not bloody.

Doctrina de ss. Missae sacrificio, c. 2, quoted in Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1367:
The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different. And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner... this sacrifice is truly propitiatory"


This basically means that Christ is being sacraficed again...over and over and over and over at thousands of altars around the world constantly.

They are saying that If you don't believe that the priest summons Jesus down to the altar and that the bread and wine are literally change into the the same actual blood and body of Jesus you are anathema/damned

Council of trent 1551:

Cannon 1
if anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or figure or force, let him be anathema.

Here are a list of 24 other detailed and specific damnations w/r/t the denial of the Mass set forth by that same council:
http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/DocumentIndex/502

If you belive what the Bible says, the Catholic Church considers you anathema.

The following Scripture shows clearly that this repeated sacrafice during the Mass is antithetical to the Bible...

Hebrews 9:24-28
For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins o many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Hebrews 7:26-28
For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

Hebrews 9:11-12
But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Hebrews 10:10-17
And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord:I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."


This Mass just seems to be some sort of neo-quasi/non-Jewish form of the Levitical priesthood, a priesthood that is obsolete and the Temple destroyed after the true and final sacrafice.

I like how one of my former teachers Dr. John MacArthur puts it:

All the Old Testament sacrifices did was portray and develop almost a passionate longing for the final sacrifice which would truly take away sin. The Old Testament had a priesthood, an altar, and sacrifices which were only shadows anticipatory of the final sacrifice that would come with Christ. He came, He offered that sacrifice and God punctuated that one sacrifice by destroying the temple using the Romans to do it in 70 A.D., by destroying the altars, thus smashing the entire sacrificial system of the Old Testament, and all the records of all the genealogies of all those in the priestly line, thus ending permanently the priesthood. There are no more sacrifices. There are no more altars. And there are no more priests as a special order to offer sacrifices. It all came to an end at the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Any sacrifices being made today are unbiblical and unable to accomplish anything.....There is no more temple in which God dwells, no more tabernacle and there is no more priesthood. It is therefore a false sacrifice on a false altar in a false temple by a false priest.

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As I have stated several times in SC, passing judgment on others, oppressing others and killing others are grave sins according to the Catholic faith.

Then why does it's leaders through its dogma judge others by saying that you are anathema if you don't believe in the Mass.

Why do they oppress nuns?

Why do they forbid Marriage?

The Bible warns us of this stuff even before it was an issue...That is in part what the Bible is for:

1 Timothy 4:1-5
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

Here's another warning...and though it is in regard to the scribes, I find it rather interesting.

Mark 12:38-40
And in his teaching he said, "Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes and like greetings in the marketplaces and have the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers.

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I don't completely understand what you are saying here. Throughout the history of Catholicism there has definitely been leaders corrupted with power, however, I do not believe the system is broken.

I just gave an example of why it is broken and there are plenty more...The Catholic Church thinks it is it's own athority above and beyond the Bible....The Pope answers to nobody and believes he is infallible regardless if his teachings contradict Scripture. It is practices like this that give people dangerous authority to justify acts like the inquisition, the crusades, opressing women and forbiding marriage.

It is sickening how some nuns are treated, especially in other countries, and there are numerous books written about the horror these women went through...There are even more severe consequences in forbiding marriage, like the molestation of children for example.

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No human can break the true teachings of Catholicism.

It has already been done....many times. Their teachings are the biggest load of bollocks ever...and it is mainly because of them that Christianity has a bad name...

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The core of Catholicism is the Holy Trinity which is completely perfect and can never be corrupted.

The Catholic Church is attempting to corrupt the Trinity everytime it labels Mary as sinless (which she was NOT) then worship and pray to her so that she may intercede for us. We have only one mediator and that is Christ alone...The worship of Mary is your typical Roman pagan goddess worship. The Bible says nothing about Mary interceding for us in terms of salvation...The most she could do was convince Jesus to make a little wine for a wedding party....not to save us.

Again, I'm not attacking the people in the Catholic Church...many are ignorant of it's teachings. (which is a good thing)

As I said earlier, it is the system and it's leaders who are the problem.

Sources:

Is Roman Catholicism Biblical?
Article

Explaining the Heresy of the Catholic Mass, Part 1:
-Sermon Transcript
-Sermon Audio

Explaining the Heresy of the Catholic Mass, Part 2:
-Sermon Transcript
-Sermon Audio

Scandal of the Catholic Priesthood:
-Sermon Transcript
-Sermon Audio

Various Writings of Emmett McLaughlin, a converted Roman Catholic priest.
http://www48.homepage.villanova.edu/emmet.mclaughlin/

http://histories.cambridge.org/credited_person?id=McLaughlinR

Parkes, Henry Banford. A History of Mexico. Boston, MA: Houghton Mifflin, 1969.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Muenkel 0]

Coreece,

I respectfully disagree with your post. While you do state some truth, there are quite a few errors. I would go into more detail but I have a wicked headache right now. When I am feeling better, I will re-read your post and give a more detailed explanation of why I disagree.

_________________________________________
Chris

[heavydude 0]

OK I am a catholic expert since I went to Catholic school throught high school. I now follow the Jimmy Buffet sect of catholism; feel guilty about lots of stuff looking at hot chicks, drinking too much red wine....
Seriously though I believe that most of these hardcore religions dont have many followers that obey 99% of the teachings. I feel that Cath. Religion just gives you some structure of morality to follow. I would say 75% are Sunday Catholics, part-time followers. In general the religion makes people feal better about themselves. The biggest downer of the Catholic religion lately has been the scandals with Priests, that has disillusioned many.

[Coreece 190]

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I respectfully disagree with your post. While you do state some truth, there are quite a few errors. I would go into more detail but I have a wicked headache right now. When I am feeling better, I will re-read your post and give a more detailed explanation of why I disagree.

I hope you feel better Chris...

I understand that long post can be difficult to reply to, and apparently italicizing quotes does't seem to make it any easier to read.

If you wanna just keep the reply short/general, I should be able get your point...I also have many sources to help me understand if needed, so don't feel obligated to write a novel....or anything at all.

Peace

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[434 2]

I am still wondering!

"I am still wondering why this is so much more correct than any other religion, and why they know they are right? If they was born in an other culture, would they believe as strong as they do now just because they need something to believe and follow? "

Why do you see something I can not see? I am only left with alot of questions.

[shaark 0]

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I am still wondering!

"I am still wondering why this is so much more correct than any other religion, and why they know they are right? If they was born in an other culture, would they believe as strong as they do now just because they need something to believe and follow? "

Why do you see something I can not see? I am only left with alot of questions.

Does it not appear that Western type religions appear to be very authoritarian, rigid, patronizing, manipulative and even psychopathic?
e.g. Judeo-Christian based cults offer 'commandments' --- Do this! Don't do that!

As a positive, this overlay on and part progenitor of our civil codes helps our Western societies function, though not as well for some as for others.
These religions also offer a little of a 'loving' philosophy, which is admirable, though so often in practice observed in it's breach.

Even here, the posters in threads like this tend to exhibit the intolerance virtually predicated by their religious biases. Maybe not so surprisingly, some athiests in these threads often come across similarly. Probably because of the culturally inbuilt Judeo-Christian biases they have absorbed.

It would be very interesting to see some input from individuals from non Judeo-Christian cultures, especially eastern ones. (Dare I posit that they are probably scratching their heads, thinking how weird are these people? Much better to stay well clear.)
As in the West, all of the human condition is evident in the East also, yet when it comes to 'religions' --- especially the interplay of Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism and Shintoism etc., there is radically less conflict, both physical and intellectual.
In fact, it is very common that an Asian individual subscribes to two or even three philosophies simultaneously, something a Westerner generally would find incomprehensible.
In so many ways these eastern religions/philosophies are much more intellectually honest. Compare the vast amount of 'knowledge/facts' that Christians/Jews/Muslims offer about God, his desires, his deeds, his promises, etc., and the Taoist "if you know the Tao, then that is NOT the eternal Tao".

Honest simplicity, simple honesty! Human.

The concept of a life philosophy, and indeed a multiplicity of same, without the trappings of our types of religions, seems to me to be so much more benificial for both humanity and the individual.

tanstaafl

[jumpwally 0]

#9,,,,,What if your nieghbors wife wants to be coveted ? and what if her husband is ok with it and wants to film it ? Well,,,

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[Andy9o8 0]

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#9,,,,,What if your nieghbors wife wants to be coveted ? and what if her husband is ok with it and wants to film it ? Well,,,

I'd think the answer would be:
...Then, even if you are not married, you should still not do it. If it is wrong to transgress, then it is equally wrong to lead others to transgression, or even to act as an enabler for one who has already decided to transgress. In your example, it would be a matter of not being willing to be an enabler for other people who are tempted to compromise the sanctity of their own marriage. The moment you knowingly act as an active enabler for someone else's transgression, you become a participant in that transgression.

[maadmax 0]

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#9,,,,,What if your nieghbors wife wants to be coveted ? and what if her husband is ok with it and wants to film it ? Well,,,

I'd think the answer would be:
...Then, even if you are not married, you should still not do it. If it is wrong to transgress, then it is equally wrong to lead others to transgression, or even to act as an enabler for one who has already decided to transgress. In your example, it would be a matter of not being willing to be an enabler for other people who are tempted to compromise the sanctity of their own marriage. The moment you knowingly act as an active enabler for someone else's transgression, you become a participant in that transgression.

Very Good!!!!


...

[Coreece 190]

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#9,,,,,What if your nieghbors wife wants to be coveted ? and what if her husband is ok with it and wants to film it ? Well,,,

The whole point of not coveting is to be happy and thankful with what you DO have....

The whole point of the commandments is to show us that we cannot stick to basic concepts that most all of us feel we should. Concepts that we all know benefit society. We can all see the benefit in not lying(especially in court), cheating, stealing and murdering.....yet we just can't control ourselves.

Our Inteligence sets us apart from everything else and we have to choose wether or not to use that inteligence responsibly and live in harmony with the natural world or to just let it destroy us...unfortunately, it appears that we are going in the wrong direction....but we can't help our selves....and we know it....and we will continue to hurt everyone around us through all of our lies, cheating, stealing, hatred and most of all, pride that causes it all....then we will continue to say that "I'm not guilty" or "Well, I'm not as bad as that guy."

The commandments are there to humble us.

Thats why we don't like them...IMO.

Who wants to be humble...that's a weakness.


EDIT

I believe that whoever is responsible for all this wanted it to be known to us...to acknowledge it and realize how great it is. To live and enjoy it....to explore it's vastness....to make what we will of it...to appreciate it.

In order to do that, they gave us their intelect, but we are too weak to control it...and instead we use it for our own selfish desires, and the consequences that follow just come naturally when this gift of knowledge is used irresponsibly.

I believe the Bible is the tool that helps explain all this in a way that all humans could understand over a long period of time including those without all the knowledge we are so priveleged to have today.

The Bible is not a science book...what would be the point if we had all the answers...we would have no science. NO SCIENCE!....that would suck.

Besides...the Bible is long enough as it is anyway...and I think the primitive minds of humans back than wouldn't have been able to grasp it...hell we can't even grasp it until we at least try an experiment ourselves to actually see.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jumpwally 0]

Actually,,if the world and /or all religions followed the 10 commandments, we really wouldn't need organized religon as we know it , right ?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083