billvon 2,427 #101 February 18, 2009 >If Hell exists, it is more of a default position of separation from God. You >go there all by yourself. For a modern take on this, try the Niven/Pournelle book Inferno. (or Dante Alighieri's original!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #102 February 18, 2009 Here's Pope John Paul II in 1999: QuoteGod is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #103 February 18, 2009 OK after thinking about this for a while..I do think the Vatican and the Holy See have done some good. Thousands of gay boys have been givin life time jobs. Editedbecause I am about to SMASH this fucking keyboard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #104 February 18, 2009 QuoteHere's Pope John Paul II in 1999: QuoteGod is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. And what was the Church's position on this previous to JP2? How has their position evolved over the centuries? If they once took a different stance on the issue, what evidence is there to make JP2's explanation more convincing? More importantly though, if God wants to be with me, why doesn't he tell me he exists? That would be the logical first step.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #105 February 18, 2009 QuoteI kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42 In a previous post, I've listed and counted God's killings in the Bible. But I only included those that said exactly how many were killed by God. I came up with 2,391,421. But that didn't include some of God's most impressive slaughters. How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? The Bible doesn't say, so there's no way to know for sure. But it's possible to provide rough estimates in order to get a grand total, and that's what I'm attempting here. (New total: 33 million.) The total is listed in the link http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html That's hardly any more than Hitler, and god had millennia to do it. Pretty poor effort for an omnipotent deity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #106 February 18, 2009 QuoteThat's hardly any more than Hitler, and god had millennia to do it. Pretty poor effort for an omnipotent deity. I don't know about that, taking relative population densities alone into account gives you an idea of how hard God must have had to work at it...Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #107 February 18, 2009 QuoteQuoteHere's Pope John Paul II in 1999: QuoteGod is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. And what was the Church's position on this previous to JP2? How has their position evolved over the centuries? If they once took a different stance on the issue, what evidence is there to make JP2's explanation more convincing? Not sure it is different. But we (including the Pope) are all human beings, experiencing God from within our own cultural context. The culture you inhabit includes the time-period in which you live. For example, it is NOT within our current culture to burn people for witchcraft. It shouldn't be surprising that things change over time. That's the nature of things. More importantly though, if God wants to be with me, why doesn't he tell me he exists? That would be the logical first step. Well, some would say he already did, that's what the Bible is. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #108 February 18, 2009 QuoteYou seem to think that God has his hand on some trapdoor switch to hell, and he's just itching to pull it on you. That's not it at all. Well, the Bible seems to suggest that hell is a place of punishment for those who have rejected Jesus, talking of fiery torment, lakes of fire and the weeping and gnashing of teeth from which you cannot escape. And God, being god and all, is responsible for the judgement that sends people there. QuoteIf Hell exists, it is more of a default position of separation from God. You go there all by yourself. In that case, hell is indistinguishable from right here right now since god is no where to be found. But that definition seems incompatible with Biblical descriptions of the place. QuoteAnyway, it's not something I worry about. Neither do I. But then nor do I worry about going to Hades or the Klingon prison on Rura Penthe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Coreece 190 #109 February 18, 2009 QuoteWhat kind of context is it that's only provided several hundred years later? It's related to dipensationalism...I look forward to studying it in-depth. QuoteWas it ok for Jews to hate people? No......go back through Gensis again, you'll find your answer.....you sure you read the Bible? Maybe you missed some stuff... I know I did. There is always something new to learn in that book, especially as one's perspective matures. Also, keep in mind that Biblical guidance is not limited to just 10 commandments... QuoteI assumed your answer would've ran along the lines of..."I told you a million times...God doesn't exist." so...there's not much to talk about is there? >>Pay attention, please, and stop trying to twist away from the issue, Rush-style. Actually...In all honesty I got that last line from you. Now that's funny. QuoteYou said that everyone can recognise that the commandments are concepts that we all know benefit society. Hence my question, what about the first four? Were you seriously suggesting that everyone knows that we should all believe exclusively in the Judeo-christian god for the benefit of society? Were you suggesting that everyone knows that this "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me" is in our own best interests? No, if I was suggesting that, I would have stated that. Obviously that knowledge would have to be revealed to you one way or another and then either accepted or rejected. If I was suggesting that and assumed that everybody knew that, I would obviously not have felt the need to clarify what I was talking about when I stated "We can all see the benefit in not lying(especially in court), cheating, stealing and murdering" A statement you conveniently left out. I should have been more clear.... QuoteYes. I've told you the reason I reject the Bible - if you want to convince me that I actually reject the Bible for a different reason, you will have to say a lot more. Oh, I know you don't believe God exsits...I also know that Faith ultimately doesn't come by hearing what I have to say about it either.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Coreece 190 #110 February 19, 2009 QuoteAnd churches, and saints, and flags, and popes, and shrouds, and images of the Virgin Mary on toast. Yep, it's pretty common. yep...many things can become an idol...I think I already addressed the Pope and the worship of Mary earlier in the thread. QuoteAgain, if you read the context, murder encompasses hatred. >That's a stretch. The original commandment was "lo tirtzack" which is more literally translated as "you shall not kill at all." .Even when Jesus spoke on it, he didn't claim that that commandment covered hatred - only (in his words) that one should not be "angry with his brother without a cause." What was ultimately the reason for the first murder in the Bible?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,427 #111 February 19, 2009 >What was ultimately the reason for the first murder in the Bible? Because God spurned Cain's offering, but not his brother Abel's. So Cain killed him out of jealousy. Lesson there - don't take religion so seriously that you'd kill someone over it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #112 February 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteAnd churches, and saints, and flags, and popes, and shrouds, and images of the Virgin Mary on toast. Yep, it's pretty common. yep...many things can become an idol...I think I already addressed the Pope and the worship of Mary earlier in the thread. QuoteAgain, if you read the context, murder encompasses hatred. >That's a stretch. The original commandment was "lo tirtzack" which is more literally translated as "you shall not kill at all." .Even when Jesus spoke on it, he didn't claim that that commandment covered hatred - only (in his words) that one should not be "angry with his brother without a cause." What was ultimately the reason for the first murder in the Bible? 'Cause Cain's kid brother kept going into his room and messing with all of his stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,257 #113 February 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteAnd what was the Church's position on this previous to JP2? How has their position evolved over the centuries? If they once took a different stance on the issue, what evidence is there to make JP2's explanation more convincing? Not sure it is different. But we (including the Pope) are all human beings, experiencing God from within our own cultural context. The culture you inhabit includes the time-period in which you live. For example, it is NOT within our current culture to burn people for witchcraft. It shouldn't be surprising that things change over time. That's the nature of things. What is it with everyone taking the Rushmc crash course on debating for idiots today? You're an intelligent person Speedracer, you know that reply addresses absolutely none of the points I raised. We were talking about offical pronouncements from the Pope on what hell is, on the eternal fabric of the universe. The way things are and have always been. What on earth does that have to do with changing attitudes on burning witches? If you're arguing that the Pope only thought that hell isn't an actual place with fire and demons because it is not part of our current western culture to believe that hell isn't an actual place with fire and demons then you've just destroyed the authority of the statement that you quoted in order to support your belief that hell isn't an actual place with fire and fucking demons. Any chance you can actually reply to that part of my post now? QuoteWell, some would say he already did, that's what the Bible is. It wasn't a very good effort then, was it? What reason do I have to read the bible if I don't believe that particular god exists? If the only effort he's made to tell me he exists resides in a book I almost certainly will not read unless I think he exists, well, pretty poor show, isn't it? What percentage of the worlds population have even seen a bible anyway? What about the people who've never had a chance to read the bible because they didn't even know it exists? Don't you even find it a little bit curious how parochial and favouritist the professed master of the entire damn universe is? Of all the people in all the world he only ever talked to the Jews? Every single time he had something to say, he said it in the same tiny patch of desert to the same tiny group of people? That's his big effort?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Coreece 190 #114 February 19, 2009 Quote>What was ultimately the reason for the first murder in the Bible? Because God spurned Cain's offering, but not his brother Abel's. So Cain killed him out of jealousy. Lesson there - don't take religion so seriously that you'd kill someone over it. ok...that was a cool PSA.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Coreece 190 #115 February 19, 2009 QuoteWhat was ultimately the reason for the first murder in the Bible? >'Cause Cain's kid brother kept going into his room and messing with all of his stuff. He musta hated that.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,257 #116 February 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat kind of context is it that's only provided several hundred years later?It's related to dipensationalism...I look forward to studying it in-depth. Related to? I repeat the question: What kind of context is it that's only provided several hundred years later? What good is it for the people who thought, for hundreds of years, that they were following the commandments to the letter, except they were totally wrong about what they really meant because the official interpretation hadn't been provided yet? Is that any way to run a legal system? If the IRS did that to you you'd be pissed as hell. Quoteyou sure you read the Bible? Never said I did. QuoteNo, if I was suggesting that, I would have stated that. Obviously that knowledge would have to be revealed to you one way or another and then either accepted or rejected. If I was suggesting that and assumed that everybody knew that, I would obviously not have felt the need to clarify what I was talking about when I stated "We can all see the benefit in not lying(especially in court), cheating, stealing and murdering" A statement you conveniently left out. Let's go back to what you said: You said that the whole point of the commandments was to show that we cannot stick to basic concepts we know benefit society. The whole point. Not "the point of some of them, but not of these ones." So, since we've established your position is that the whole point of the commandments is not the whole point of the commandments, exactly what is the point of the first four? QuoteOh, I know you don't believe God exsits...I also know that Faith ultimately doesn't come by hearing what I have to say about it either. Your weaseling away again. You claimed to know the reason that I don't believe. So go on, convince me that you know my thoughts better than I do.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 434 2 #117 February 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteI kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42 In a previous post, I've listed and counted God's killings in the Bible. But I only included those that said exactly how many were killed by God. I came up with 2,391,421. But that didn't include some of God's most impressive slaughters. How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? The Bible doesn't say, so there's no way to know for sure. But it's possible to provide rough estimates in order to get a grand total, and that's what I'm attempting here. (New total: 33 million.) The total is listed in the link http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html That's hardly any more than Hitler, and god had millennia to do it. Pretty poor effort for an omnipotent deity. If you take the % of the population at the time, it will give you a different picture. How many people have not been killed and tortured in his name? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #118 February 19, 2009 Well then why the hell bother to explore something on a web forum that you are determined not to believe in anyway? Even Jesus himself said that there are some people he & his followers shouldn't waste time preaching to, because they just won't believe in it or value it. (Matthew 7:6) If even Jesus himself couldn't convince someone to listen who didn't want to, what chance would I have? [ANYWAY: The title of the original post was what have the Vatican done for the people. The answer is, quite a lot, even if it doesn't make the news all the time. The church was the first welfare safety net, on quite a large scale.] Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,257 #119 February 19, 2009 QuoteWell then why the hell bother to explore something on a web forum that you are determined not to believe in anyway? I was asking you about historical pronouncements on the nature of hell by the Vatican. Is JP2's description the same as what all Popes throughout the ages have said hell is? If not, what makes his description the real one? Why are you so determined not to answer these questions? They are straightforward questions, which can be answered in a straightforward manner. If you don't know the answers, just say so, but don't don't twist and turn and wriggle and pretend to answer with irrelevant guff about witches and culture and what I believe.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 434 2 #120 February 19, 2009 What if a person like Jesus show up today? Who would believe him? You know as I know, if 10 people see an accident, you will at least get 3 different answers when you ask what happend? When the world is spread to 100 people who where not there, you will have more than 50 different answers how the accident happend. Make it a couple of houndred years between as well. Link Life of Brian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krb2OdQksMc&feature=PlayList&p=215C1C8EA68EA41E&playnext=1&index=2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Coreece 190 #121 February 19, 2009 QuoteRelated to? I repeat the question: What kind of context is it that's only provided several hundred years later? I explained why the Jews would know why hatred was wrong according to the Bible....Jesus gives us a clearer understanding of that hatred and focuses on addressing the condition of the human heart. It's not just wrong to murder, it's also wrong to hate. It is hatred in the heart that leads to things like murder. People have not always had the biblical knowledge that we have now to help understand our spiritual condition. I don't know why God chose to work in dispensations instead of just giving us all knowledge at once, but studying those dispensations will give us a better understanding. QuoteWhat good is it for the people who thought, for hundreds of years, that they were following the commandments to the letter, except they were totally wrong about what they really meant because the official interpretation hadn't been provided yet? Is that any way to run a legal system? If the IRS did that to you you'd be pissed as hell. People are pissed at God....They don't naturally agree with him. It's a process. I don't think that's gonna change. There doesn't seem to be many quick fixes...we don't like that. QuoteLet's go back to what you said: You said that the whole point of the commandments was to show that we cannot stick to basic concepts we know benefit society. The whole point. Not "the point of some of them, but not of these ones." Ok...it's not the whole point. My statement was careless. I was trying to illustrate that many of us can agree that there are flaws with human character regardless if we believe in God or not....we have a choice to either deal with these flaws or not. Many chose to address the negative aspects of their own personal charater and we do this in many different ways, religious or not. It's a starting point. We have to realize there is a problem in order to address it. The Bible helps us to do that if you want the guidance it provides.... QuoteSo, since we've established your position is that the whole point of the commandments is not the whole point of the commandments, exactly what is the point of the first four? To obey them. I understand that a non-believer would view this differently than someone who believed. In any event, we can't even obey the ones that society believes should be accepted.... We only need to break one that we agree with to understand that we have a problem...how you deal with that is your choice. QuoteYour weaseling away again. You claimed to know the reason that I don't believe. So go on, convince me that you know my thoughts better than I do. No, I never claimed that...I said that your rejection of the Bible might be because you don't understand it. Then you re-affirmed that you reject it because you believe that God doesn't exsist. That makes sense to me...I agreed with how you felt and said that I know you don't believe God exsists and that I can't convince you to believe by just hearing what I think about the Bible, especially when I have given no scripture in the last several post. I believe faith comes by hearing the Word of God, not what I have to say about it. I was trying to suggest that if you would perhaps read the Bible a little more you might gain a different understanding.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #122 February 19, 2009 Yes, the central idea has always been that hell is a state of being ultimately separated from God. Images of the lake of fire, devils with hot forks up your bum, is probably speculative imagery. We're getting our info about what hell is like from people who have never been there themselves, but the motive behind it all was probably to drive home the idea that separation from God was a thing to be avoided at all costs. I think many Jewish people at the time of Christ didn't have much of an idea of an afterlife at all. In the Old Testament you don't get much of that. For example, in the Old Testament, when a king dies, it just said that "he went to rest with his ancestors." Christ's story of Lazarus & the rich man was unique at the time. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #123 February 19, 2009 QuoteImages of the lake of fire, devils with hot forks up your bum, is probably speculative imagery. That information came directly from the Bible (see Mark 4:43-48 for example, there are loads more references). Are you saying that the Bible is speculative? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #124 February 19, 2009 QuoteWhat if a person like Jesus show up today? Who would believe him? You know as I know, if 10 people see an accident, you will at least get 3 different answers when you ask what happend? When the world is spread to 100 people who where not there, you will have more than 50 different answers how the accident happend. Make it a couple of houndred years between as well. The lessons and events described in the Bible are there to point the way. So that a positive individual can learn the concepts and use them to find God. That is its only purpose and it does that very well. Problems arise when people try to use the Bible for things it was not designed for. Whether people can agree on all aspects of the Bible is unimportant. If you wish to find God, the Bible will lead you to Him. When Jesus returns, those who know Him will recognize Him. ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 434 2 #125 February 19, 2009 Do you deny a muslim or a jews teaching could be as right as an christian? Is Buddhism wrong teaching? (Devils work to mislead people on their way to heaven) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 5 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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JackC 0 #108 February 18, 2009 QuoteYou seem to think that God has his hand on some trapdoor switch to hell, and he's just itching to pull it on you. That's not it at all. Well, the Bible seems to suggest that hell is a place of punishment for those who have rejected Jesus, talking of fiery torment, lakes of fire and the weeping and gnashing of teeth from which you cannot escape. And God, being god and all, is responsible for the judgement that sends people there. QuoteIf Hell exists, it is more of a default position of separation from God. You go there all by yourself. In that case, hell is indistinguishable from right here right now since god is no where to be found. But that definition seems incompatible with Biblical descriptions of the place. QuoteAnyway, it's not something I worry about. Neither do I. But then nor do I worry about going to Hades or the Klingon prison on Rura Penthe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #109 February 18, 2009 QuoteWhat kind of context is it that's only provided several hundred years later? It's related to dipensationalism...I look forward to studying it in-depth. QuoteWas it ok for Jews to hate people? No......go back through Gensis again, you'll find your answer.....you sure you read the Bible? Maybe you missed some stuff... I know I did. There is always something new to learn in that book, especially as one's perspective matures. Also, keep in mind that Biblical guidance is not limited to just 10 commandments... QuoteI assumed your answer would've ran along the lines of..."I told you a million times...God doesn't exist." so...there's not much to talk about is there? >>Pay attention, please, and stop trying to twist away from the issue, Rush-style. Actually...In all honesty I got that last line from you. Now that's funny. QuoteYou said that everyone can recognise that the commandments are concepts that we all know benefit society. Hence my question, what about the first four? Were you seriously suggesting that everyone knows that we should all believe exclusively in the Judeo-christian god for the benefit of society? Were you suggesting that everyone knows that this "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me" is in our own best interests? No, if I was suggesting that, I would have stated that. Obviously that knowledge would have to be revealed to you one way or another and then either accepted or rejected. If I was suggesting that and assumed that everybody knew that, I would obviously not have felt the need to clarify what I was talking about when I stated "We can all see the benefit in not lying(especially in court), cheating, stealing and murdering" A statement you conveniently left out. I should have been more clear.... QuoteYes. I've told you the reason I reject the Bible - if you want to convince me that I actually reject the Bible for a different reason, you will have to say a lot more. Oh, I know you don't believe God exsits...I also know that Faith ultimately doesn't come by hearing what I have to say about it either.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #110 February 19, 2009 QuoteAnd churches, and saints, and flags, and popes, and shrouds, and images of the Virgin Mary on toast. Yep, it's pretty common. yep...many things can become an idol...I think I already addressed the Pope and the worship of Mary earlier in the thread. QuoteAgain, if you read the context, murder encompasses hatred. >That's a stretch. The original commandment was "lo tirtzack" which is more literally translated as "you shall not kill at all." .Even when Jesus spoke on it, he didn't claim that that commandment covered hatred - only (in his words) that one should not be "angry with his brother without a cause." What was ultimately the reason for the first murder in the Bible?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,427 #111 February 19, 2009 >What was ultimately the reason for the first murder in the Bible? Because God spurned Cain's offering, but not his brother Abel's. So Cain killed him out of jealousy. Lesson there - don't take religion so seriously that you'd kill someone over it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #112 February 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteAnd churches, and saints, and flags, and popes, and shrouds, and images of the Virgin Mary on toast. Yep, it's pretty common. yep...many things can become an idol...I think I already addressed the Pope and the worship of Mary earlier in the thread. QuoteAgain, if you read the context, murder encompasses hatred. >That's a stretch. The original commandment was "lo tirtzack" which is more literally translated as "you shall not kill at all." .Even when Jesus spoke on it, he didn't claim that that commandment covered hatred - only (in his words) that one should not be "angry with his brother without a cause." What was ultimately the reason for the first murder in the Bible? 'Cause Cain's kid brother kept going into his room and messing with all of his stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #113 February 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteAnd what was the Church's position on this previous to JP2? How has their position evolved over the centuries? If they once took a different stance on the issue, what evidence is there to make JP2's explanation more convincing? Not sure it is different. But we (including the Pope) are all human beings, experiencing God from within our own cultural context. The culture you inhabit includes the time-period in which you live. For example, it is NOT within our current culture to burn people for witchcraft. It shouldn't be surprising that things change over time. That's the nature of things. What is it with everyone taking the Rushmc crash course on debating for idiots today? You're an intelligent person Speedracer, you know that reply addresses absolutely none of the points I raised. We were talking about offical pronouncements from the Pope on what hell is, on the eternal fabric of the universe. The way things are and have always been. What on earth does that have to do with changing attitudes on burning witches? If you're arguing that the Pope only thought that hell isn't an actual place with fire and demons because it is not part of our current western culture to believe that hell isn't an actual place with fire and demons then you've just destroyed the authority of the statement that you quoted in order to support your belief that hell isn't an actual place with fire and fucking demons. Any chance you can actually reply to that part of my post now? QuoteWell, some would say he already did, that's what the Bible is. It wasn't a very good effort then, was it? What reason do I have to read the bible if I don't believe that particular god exists? If the only effort he's made to tell me he exists resides in a book I almost certainly will not read unless I think he exists, well, pretty poor show, isn't it? What percentage of the worlds population have even seen a bible anyway? What about the people who've never had a chance to read the bible because they didn't even know it exists? Don't you even find it a little bit curious how parochial and favouritist the professed master of the entire damn universe is? Of all the people in all the world he only ever talked to the Jews? Every single time he had something to say, he said it in the same tiny patch of desert to the same tiny group of people? That's his big effort?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #114 February 19, 2009 Quote>What was ultimately the reason for the first murder in the Bible? Because God spurned Cain's offering, but not his brother Abel's. So Cain killed him out of jealousy. Lesson there - don't take religion so seriously that you'd kill someone over it. ok...that was a cool PSA.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #115 February 19, 2009 QuoteWhat was ultimately the reason for the first murder in the Bible? >'Cause Cain's kid brother kept going into his room and messing with all of his stuff. He musta hated that.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #116 February 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat kind of context is it that's only provided several hundred years later?It's related to dipensationalism...I look forward to studying it in-depth. Related to? I repeat the question: What kind of context is it that's only provided several hundred years later? What good is it for the people who thought, for hundreds of years, that they were following the commandments to the letter, except they were totally wrong about what they really meant because the official interpretation hadn't been provided yet? Is that any way to run a legal system? If the IRS did that to you you'd be pissed as hell. Quoteyou sure you read the Bible? Never said I did. QuoteNo, if I was suggesting that, I would have stated that. Obviously that knowledge would have to be revealed to you one way or another and then either accepted or rejected. If I was suggesting that and assumed that everybody knew that, I would obviously not have felt the need to clarify what I was talking about when I stated "We can all see the benefit in not lying(especially in court), cheating, stealing and murdering" A statement you conveniently left out. Let's go back to what you said: You said that the whole point of the commandments was to show that we cannot stick to basic concepts we know benefit society. The whole point. Not "the point of some of them, but not of these ones." So, since we've established your position is that the whole point of the commandments is not the whole point of the commandments, exactly what is the point of the first four? QuoteOh, I know you don't believe God exsits...I also know that Faith ultimately doesn't come by hearing what I have to say about it either. Your weaseling away again. You claimed to know the reason that I don't believe. So go on, convince me that you know my thoughts better than I do.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
434 2 #117 February 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteI kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42 In a previous post, I've listed and counted God's killings in the Bible. But I only included those that said exactly how many were killed by God. I came up with 2,391,421. But that didn't include some of God's most impressive slaughters. How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? The Bible doesn't say, so there's no way to know for sure. But it's possible to provide rough estimates in order to get a grand total, and that's what I'm attempting here. (New total: 33 million.) The total is listed in the link http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html That's hardly any more than Hitler, and god had millennia to do it. Pretty poor effort for an omnipotent deity. If you take the % of the population at the time, it will give you a different picture. How many people have not been killed and tortured in his name? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #118 February 19, 2009 Well then why the hell bother to explore something on a web forum that you are determined not to believe in anyway? Even Jesus himself said that there are some people he & his followers shouldn't waste time preaching to, because they just won't believe in it or value it. (Matthew 7:6) If even Jesus himself couldn't convince someone to listen who didn't want to, what chance would I have? [ANYWAY: The title of the original post was what have the Vatican done for the people. The answer is, quite a lot, even if it doesn't make the news all the time. The church was the first welfare safety net, on quite a large scale.] Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #119 February 19, 2009 QuoteWell then why the hell bother to explore something on a web forum that you are determined not to believe in anyway? I was asking you about historical pronouncements on the nature of hell by the Vatican. Is JP2's description the same as what all Popes throughout the ages have said hell is? If not, what makes his description the real one? Why are you so determined not to answer these questions? They are straightforward questions, which can be answered in a straightforward manner. If you don't know the answers, just say so, but don't don't twist and turn and wriggle and pretend to answer with irrelevant guff about witches and culture and what I believe.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
434 2 #120 February 19, 2009 What if a person like Jesus show up today? Who would believe him? You know as I know, if 10 people see an accident, you will at least get 3 different answers when you ask what happend? When the world is spread to 100 people who where not there, you will have more than 50 different answers how the accident happend. Make it a couple of houndred years between as well. Link Life of Brian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krb2OdQksMc&feature=PlayList&p=215C1C8EA68EA41E&playnext=1&index=2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #121 February 19, 2009 QuoteRelated to? I repeat the question: What kind of context is it that's only provided several hundred years later? I explained why the Jews would know why hatred was wrong according to the Bible....Jesus gives us a clearer understanding of that hatred and focuses on addressing the condition of the human heart. It's not just wrong to murder, it's also wrong to hate. It is hatred in the heart that leads to things like murder. People have not always had the biblical knowledge that we have now to help understand our spiritual condition. I don't know why God chose to work in dispensations instead of just giving us all knowledge at once, but studying those dispensations will give us a better understanding. QuoteWhat good is it for the people who thought, for hundreds of years, that they were following the commandments to the letter, except they were totally wrong about what they really meant because the official interpretation hadn't been provided yet? Is that any way to run a legal system? If the IRS did that to you you'd be pissed as hell. People are pissed at God....They don't naturally agree with him. It's a process. I don't think that's gonna change. There doesn't seem to be many quick fixes...we don't like that. QuoteLet's go back to what you said: You said that the whole point of the commandments was to show that we cannot stick to basic concepts we know benefit society. The whole point. Not "the point of some of them, but not of these ones." Ok...it's not the whole point. My statement was careless. I was trying to illustrate that many of us can agree that there are flaws with human character regardless if we believe in God or not....we have a choice to either deal with these flaws or not. Many chose to address the negative aspects of their own personal charater and we do this in many different ways, religious or not. It's a starting point. We have to realize there is a problem in order to address it. The Bible helps us to do that if you want the guidance it provides.... QuoteSo, since we've established your position is that the whole point of the commandments is not the whole point of the commandments, exactly what is the point of the first four? To obey them. I understand that a non-believer would view this differently than someone who believed. In any event, we can't even obey the ones that society believes should be accepted.... We only need to break one that we agree with to understand that we have a problem...how you deal with that is your choice. QuoteYour weaseling away again. You claimed to know the reason that I don't believe. So go on, convince me that you know my thoughts better than I do. No, I never claimed that...I said that your rejection of the Bible might be because you don't understand it. Then you re-affirmed that you reject it because you believe that God doesn't exsist. That makes sense to me...I agreed with how you felt and said that I know you don't believe God exsists and that I can't convince you to believe by just hearing what I think about the Bible, especially when I have given no scripture in the last several post. I believe faith comes by hearing the Word of God, not what I have to say about it. I was trying to suggest that if you would perhaps read the Bible a little more you might gain a different understanding.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #122 February 19, 2009 Yes, the central idea has always been that hell is a state of being ultimately separated from God. Images of the lake of fire, devils with hot forks up your bum, is probably speculative imagery. We're getting our info about what hell is like from people who have never been there themselves, but the motive behind it all was probably to drive home the idea that separation from God was a thing to be avoided at all costs. I think many Jewish people at the time of Christ didn't have much of an idea of an afterlife at all. In the Old Testament you don't get much of that. For example, in the Old Testament, when a king dies, it just said that "he went to rest with his ancestors." Christ's story of Lazarus & the rich man was unique at the time. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #123 February 19, 2009 QuoteImages of the lake of fire, devils with hot forks up your bum, is probably speculative imagery. That information came directly from the Bible (see Mark 4:43-48 for example, there are loads more references). Are you saying that the Bible is speculative? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #124 February 19, 2009 QuoteWhat if a person like Jesus show up today? Who would believe him? You know as I know, if 10 people see an accident, you will at least get 3 different answers when you ask what happend? When the world is spread to 100 people who where not there, you will have more than 50 different answers how the accident happend. Make it a couple of houndred years between as well. The lessons and events described in the Bible are there to point the way. So that a positive individual can learn the concepts and use them to find God. That is its only purpose and it does that very well. Problems arise when people try to use the Bible for things it was not designed for. Whether people can agree on all aspects of the Bible is unimportant. If you wish to find God, the Bible will lead you to Him. When Jesus returns, those who know Him will recognize Him. ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
434 2 #125 February 19, 2009 Do you deny a muslim or a jews teaching could be as right as an christian? Is Buddhism wrong teaching? (Devils work to mislead people on their way to heaven) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
