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steve1 5
This has me wondering about shot size. 00 buck is probably most used in combat situations. Some people even use it for bear protection. It's larger shot size would allow it to penetrate deeper than lighter shot.
Yes, it might shoot through a wall. It would also likely penetrate bone and most things a bad guy might hide behind or wear.
I'd rather have slugs for bear protection though. Even 00 buckshot might not penetrate into the vitals of a big bear. It doesn't penetrate nearly as well as a slug.
But let's say you have a bad guy at 40 yards, and you have an improved cylinder choke. You might be lucky to even hit the bad guy with a few BB's. There aren't many in 00 buck, because they are large pellets. But then again, they definitely penetrate deeper than lighter shot.
I remember calling in a fox once. He hung up at about 40 yards. He wouldn't budge an inch closer. I put the bead of my 870 on his neck and cut loose. I was using a full choke. Only two BB's hit him. One in the head, and one in the neck. It killed the fox, but it was just luck. I could have also missed.
An impoved cylinder choke is what many people have on their short barreled shotgun. It won't pattern very well with OO buck at longer ranges.
Having more BB's is a plus for some situations....but they also don't penetrate as well as heavier shot like 00 buck.
Number four or larger birdshot might be a good home defense round. Out to twenty five yards, with a full choke, I think it would definitely put someone on the ground. But the question is, would they stay down, when hit. Would they still be able to fire back.
So, I guess I have to agree with Lou. For all around use, 00 buck might be the best choice. I can see how lighter shot would work well at close range. But considering a shot beyond twenty yards I'd want heavier buck shot.
I also have sights on my twenty inch barrel. I can shoot slugs for longer shots as well as buck shot through the same barrel. The barrel isn't rifled, but it still groups slugs well out to 60 yards. I think I could hit a person size target out to 80 yards with it.
For home defense, I load the magazine up with buck shot, and have a few slugs on the stock. If a long shot presented itself. Having some slugs might be smart. Buck shot might very well be worthless beyond 50 yards. Who knows what kind of situation, you might end up in. Having a weapon that is versatile might be something that saves your life.
I agree too, that a pistol is easier to pack around all day. It isn't easy to carry a shotgun around with you, everywhere you go. But, I'd sure rather have a shotgun for a home defense situation. Maybe if I shot a pistol more, I'd have a different preference.
Just my two cents worth!....
Yes, it might shoot through a wall. It would also likely penetrate bone and most things a bad guy might hide behind or wear.
I'd rather have slugs for bear protection though. Even 00 buckshot might not penetrate into the vitals of a big bear. It doesn't penetrate nearly as well as a slug.
But let's say you have a bad guy at 40 yards, and you have an improved cylinder choke. You might be lucky to even hit the bad guy with a few BB's. There aren't many in 00 buck, because they are large pellets. But then again, they definitely penetrate deeper than lighter shot.
I remember calling in a fox once. He hung up at about 40 yards. He wouldn't budge an inch closer. I put the bead of my 870 on his neck and cut loose. I was using a full choke. Only two BB's hit him. One in the head, and one in the neck. It killed the fox, but it was just luck. I could have also missed.
An impoved cylinder choke is what many people have on their short barreled shotgun. It won't pattern very well with OO buck at longer ranges.
Having more BB's is a plus for some situations....but they also don't penetrate as well as heavier shot like 00 buck.
Number four or larger birdshot might be a good home defense round. Out to twenty five yards, with a full choke, I think it would definitely put someone on the ground. But the question is, would they stay down, when hit. Would they still be able to fire back.
So, I guess I have to agree with Lou. For all around use, 00 buck might be the best choice. I can see how lighter shot would work well at close range. But considering a shot beyond twenty yards I'd want heavier buck shot.
I also have sights on my twenty inch barrel. I can shoot slugs for longer shots as well as buck shot through the same barrel. The barrel isn't rifled, but it still groups slugs well out to 60 yards. I think I could hit a person size target out to 80 yards with it.
For home defense, I load the magazine up with buck shot, and have a few slugs on the stock. If a long shot presented itself. Having some slugs might be smart. Buck shot might very well be worthless beyond 50 yards. Who knows what kind of situation, you might end up in. Having a weapon that is versatile might be something that saves your life.
I agree too, that a pistol is easier to pack around all day. It isn't easy to carry a shotgun around with you, everywhere you go. But, I'd sure rather have a shotgun for a home defense situation. Maybe if I shot a pistol more, I'd have a different preference.
Just my two cents worth!....
stitch 0
So where you live it's common for a "Bad Guy" to initiate an attack from 40 yards away? I love it.
"Hey, I'm gonna carjack ya bitch. I'm 40 yards away, cause I wanna give you time to react so we have can a fair fight". I love these fantasies. Show me a case where an armed citizen has been assualted/attacked at a distance of more than 10 feet.
That is other than Ruby Ridge/Waco.
"Hey, I'm gonna carjack ya bitch. I'm 40 yards away, cause I wanna give you time to react so we have can a fair fight". I love these fantasies. Show me a case where an armed citizen has been assualted/attacked at a distance of more than 10 feet.
That is other than Ruby Ridge/Waco.
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"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"
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Don't be a "Racer Hater"
steve1 5
QuoteSo where you live it's common for a "Bad Guy" to initiate an attack from 40 yards away? I love it.
.
Gun battles aren't always at close quarters....Think a little!
stitch 0
I asked you to show me an example of where an armed citizen was attacked (carjacked, assualted, raped, robbed, threatened with a deadly weapon) from a distance of more than 10 feet.
Your response "Thlnk a little" !?!
I have. You're fantasizing. Most of us don't live in downtown Baghdad. We're not talking about military/police actions. This isn't main street in Dodge City, 1888.
Your response "Thlnk a little" !?!
I have. You're fantasizing. Most of us don't live in downtown Baghdad. We're not talking about military/police actions. This isn't main street in Dodge City, 1888.
"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"
QuoteI asked you to show me an example of where an armed citizen was attacked (carjacked, assualted, raped, robbed, threatened with a deadly weapon) from a distance of more than 10 feet.
Your response "Thlnk a little" !?!
I have. You're fantasizing. Most of us don't live in downtown Baghdad. We're not talking about military/police actions. This isn't main street in Dodge City, 1888.
I think you're missing the point here. The number Steve gave is a general maximum effective range of some shotguns based on several factors(you can get further distances but that requires some mods be done and is outside this conversation). Home defense scenarios are typically within the household or the entry/ exits from the house. Do a search on 21 feet and guns. Those in law enforcement or who do this for a living are familiar with this and it is not uncommon to see distances out to 21 feet in a household. Therefore, if you have a weapon system such as a shotgun that is accurate out to say 50 yards you can rest assured that at distances closer than that the buck shot dispersion pattern will be well within the "A" zone on a man size target.
Most gunfights be it on the streets in anytown USA and or in combat are not always at great distances. You would be surprised at how close they usually tend to be.
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For home defense, I have a Remi 870 with alternating 00 and deer slugs.
Two things BIGUN~
When you alternate rounds like that you loose the consistency of aim point & tactics as they would change somewhat every other shot...you're trained but most are not.
You also set yourself up for interesting questions while on the stand defending your lethal action.
Always remember, you weren't trying to kill anyone...only STOP them from harming you...and you made no conscious choice as to ammunition, just used what the gun-store guy said was appropriate....juries understand simplicity better than an accurate description that makes sense to 'us'.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Zarcero 0
Her being a retired policewoman, I am sure she can recommend what is appropriate for her and for you,
I am not sure of your state laws, but I would consider getting a concealed license to carry. I have one here in TX. It takes several months, but is worth the effort and is reciprocal in most states. In the meantime, check your local Castle Doctrine laws for wherever you reside.
As for her, being a retired cop, I think they are automatically granted a carry license after retirement, but this of course depends on the state.
I carry a Colt .380 Government model. Most engagements are going to be at close quarters, so a shotgun might not be exactly what you need, especially if you are away from the house. I carry cocked with the safety on.
Mike
I am not sure of your state laws, but I would consider getting a concealed license to carry. I have one here in TX. It takes several months, but is worth the effort and is reciprocal in most states. In the meantime, check your local Castle Doctrine laws for wherever you reside.
As for her, being a retired cop, I think they are automatically granted a carry license after retirement, but this of course depends on the state.
I carry a Colt .380 Government model. Most engagements are going to be at close quarters, so a shotgun might not be exactly what you need, especially if you are away from the house. I carry cocked with the safety on.
Mike
steve1 5
QuoteFor home defense, I have a Remi 870 with alternating 00 and deer slugs.
/reply].........................................................
I tried something like that in a hunting situation once. I was around 13 and out with my pump shotgun. I knew there were ducks and deer in the river bottom I was hunting.
I had birdshot in the chamber, and two slugs in the magazine. Out of nowhere jumped this nice whitetail buck. It was right in front of me, with his neck and head sticking out of some trees.
I forgot all about the birdshot in the chamber. In my excitement I cut loose thinking I had a slug in the barrel. The deer took off wounded, and I never did get it. So much for birdshot. It didn't even phase that deer, even at close range.
This is also what happens when you are very excited. Buck fever probably happens in combat too.
I guess my point is, that it's important to keep things simple. If I were firing multiple rounds in a combat situation it might be hard to keep track of what is buckshot, and what is a slug.
I'm not saying that wouldn't work though. Proper training would be the key.
Ron 7
12 ga shotgun....It is the best HD weapon really.
I have an 870...But really any will do.
I would get a short barrel, but I would not get the pistol grip. They are much smaller, but the regular stock is easier to get on target, fire, and get back on target. The pistol grip is great for hiding, but shooting, I'd rather have the regular stock and it is not like you have to hide it if you are in a HD situation.
OO buck is a great ammo choice.
I have an 870...But really any will do.
I would get a short barrel, but I would not get the pistol grip. They are much smaller, but the regular stock is easier to get on target, fire, and get back on target. The pistol grip is great for hiding, but shooting, I'd rather have the regular stock and it is not like you have to hide it if you are in a HD situation.
OO buck is a great ammo choice.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Ron 7
QuoteI've always been under the impression that you had to have a class 2 manufacturers license to modify a shotgun. A barrel of less than 18" puts it under the AOW classification. Unless something has changed (I don't keep up with the details like I used to.), while you can purchase an AOW with the proper tax stamp. Modifying a firearm w/o a class 2 license is illegal.
Not true at all. You just have to have the 200.00 tax stamp on the form 4 BEFORE you make any modifications and the name and city of the new "Manufacturer" (You) must be engraved on the weapon .02 deep.
For full auto you have to be an SOT since 86.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
BIGUN 1,053
QuoteYou also set yourself up for interesting questions while on the stand defending your lethal action.
I don't care.
QuoteAlways remember, you weren't trying to kill anyone...only STOP them from harming you...and you made no conscious choice as to ammunition, just used what the gun-store guy said was appropriate....juries understand simplicity better than an accurate description that makes sense to 'us'.
Nothing more simple than, "He came in my house at 3:00AM, brandishing a weapon, came towards me, so I killed him. Had he kept his butt at home and not come into miine; he would be alive today."
Where you been, Brother... traipsing over Europe again?
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.
QuoteQuoteYou also set yourself up for interesting questions while on the stand defending your lethal action.
I don't care.QuoteAlways remember, you weren't trying to kill anyone...only STOP them from harming you...and you made no conscious choice as to ammunition, just used what the gun-store guy said was appropriate....juries understand simplicity better than an accurate description that makes sense to 'us'.
Nothing more simple than, "He came in my house at 3:00AM, brandishing a weapon, came towards me, so I killed him. Had he kept his butt at home and not come into miine; he would be alive today."
>>> BTDT...then again it WAS in California...I instead did what the 'mouthpiece' suggested and phrased it in the simplest P.C. terms that those unable to get out of jury duty could understand.
Where you been, Brother... traipsing over Europe again?
>>> Nope...South America for a month this time, I'm now 'officially qualified' to sit with one leg up on the table according to sailor protocol.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
steve1 5
QuoteI asked you to show me an example of where an armed citizen was attacked (carjacked, assualted, raped, robbed, threatened with a deadly weapon) from a distance of more than 10 feet.
Your response "Thlnk a little" !?!
I have. You're fantasizing. Most of us don't live in downtown Baghdad. We're not talking about military/police actions. This isn't main street in Dodge City, 1888.
..................................................................
I admit that most home defense would require close range shooting. Maybe most situations in a building would be close. But what if things move outdoors.
There are probably hundreds of scenarios that I could dream up. Let me give you a true, real life, scenario.
A friend of mine, when he was a boy, had his family terrorized by a man with a gun. He was threatening to kill everyone in his family. They were all outside his house. He sneaked in the house and got one of his family's rifles. He went outside where this nutcase was holding his family at gun point. He fired one time, killing the bastard.
No, that wasn't Bagdad. It was Western Montana.
Now let's say you were in a similiar situation, but all you had was a shotgun. The bad guy is 50 yards away, and your magazine is full of buck shot. The bad guy is close to your family, and you don't want to hit all of them with buckshot. I'd like to be able to slip in a slug, and use the sights.
Another scenario. Let's say you and your wife are out for a drive in the country. They only weapon you have is a shotgun with buckshot, in the back seat. A man pulls up in a pickup 70 yards away and starts shooting at you. Buckshot might do some damage at that range, but I'd rather have some slugs and sights.
I guess I could go on and on with what if scenarios....I guess my point is that not all shootouts are at close range.
Its all about transfer of energy.. if someone is coming at you even after you let loose with buckshot.. I guarantee that the slug will transfer some energy.
A friend of mine who is a cop.. watched as I unloaded my pistol grip 12 guage at 50 ft the buckshot had a very nice spread at full body mass.. the slug in the head... well that would make an impression the next round of buck to the body.. you get the picture. He did mention I may not want to practice that at the range.. it looks bad.. but fuck... if I have to pull that trigger in the situation where my life is in danger.. that is how it is going to be aimed.
( oh.. and I do not let it hit me in the face.. and yet it is still aimed thank you)
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