So, about the so-called right to self defense in Britain

[Stumpy 256]

Um - have you actually ever left the US?
If so, do you really believe this?!

Quote

and the diversity of culture, if not strictly language, is in the ballpark

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Um - have you actually ever left the US?
If so, do you really believe this?!

Quote

and the diversity of culture, if not strictly language, is in the ballpark

Uh, yes to both.

Put it this way - the metropolitan area I live in (San Francisco) has a greater number of people and a greater diversity than your entire country.

Then note that the continental US is 3000 miles wide. Then go find Hawaii (not sure Alaska counts). 100 years ago America was a melting pot and that hasn't changed since. In recent years 1 million legal immigrants enter each year.

California is hardly similar to the South, New Orleans, Chicago, New York, or Maine. And as I said, until homeland security driven regs fully take effect, it has been true that Americans could visit virtually the entire continent of North America without a passport. So it's no surprise that few Americans need one compared to someone in New Zealand or England.

[Stumpy 256]

Quote

Quote

Um - have you actually ever left the US?
If so, do you really believe this?!

Quote

and the diversity of culture, if not strictly language, is in the ballpark

Uh, yes to both.

Put it this way - the metropolitan area I live in (San Francisco) has a greater number of people and a greater diversity than your entire country.

Then note that the continental US is 3000 miles wide. Then go find Hawaii (not sure Alaska counts). 100 years ago America was a melting pot and that hasn't changed since. In recent years 1 million legal immigrants enter each year.

California is hardly similar to the South, New Orleans, Chicago, New York, or Maine. And as I said, until homeland security driven regs fully take effect, it has been true that Americans could visit virtually the entire continent of North America without a passport. So it's no surprise that few Americans need one compared to someone in New Zealand or England.

I'm assuming you are talking about new zealand when you say my country, and there yes i would probably agree with you. More diverse than the UK? nope.
Ive lived in, and visited quite a lot of the states. Sure there is a lot of diversity, i wouldn't debate that, but anywhere near as culturally diverse as europe? We'll have to agree to disagree. (Bit tricky to measure!)

Edited to add - i have no problems with people not having left the US unless, as has happened to me a few times, they then tell me there is nothing better outside!! (incidentally, 3 out of 4 people who said this to me were texan, and one of those had never left his own state. )

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[birdlike 0]

Quote

This is a stupid fucking thread that brings SC to a new low.

In the short time I've been here in Speakers Corner, I've seen threads that make this one look like an application for a Rhodes scholarship. What exactly about this thread brings SC so low? Was it the nonsensical responses of some of the posters to the initial post? The fact that they can't do anything to rebut the main idea of the thread, which is that Britain's criminal justice system is in disarray if it can bring charges like the ones in this case?

I'd say it's probably the fact that no one can reply with something germain, but instead go off on meaningless, mindless tangents about whether I've been to the U.K. (as though I would have to have, in order to see something screwed up in this report), or whether I have a passport.

Frankly, I am surprised that no one has challenged me about supporting George W. Bush yet. But I know it's coming... I think Amazon just must not have seen this thread yet is all.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[shropshire 0]

>

You crack me up when you get your panties in a wad over British posts. They make me laugh my tits off, dont' you know?. In the main, we couldn't give a tinkers cuss what Jonny foriegner thinks. So please watch your blood pressure old man and have a jolly spiffing day.

Toodle pips.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[mr2mk1g 10]

Here's a germane post for you. I'm a British lawyer. I don't know the facts of the case - the reporter probably doesn't really either. I've seen cases I've been involved with so badly reported you would be hard pushed to know for sure it was the right one.

The only people who know for certain what went on in that shop are the guy, the robbers and probably a couple of lawyers. The fact he was advised to plead guilty says a lot to me, a lot about what the CPS and defence lawyers knew – then again he might just have had a shitty lawyer.

This quote makes me think twice: "He did punch one of them to get him off. In the heat of the moment he kicked him once or twice. Initially he was acting in self defence. Frustration at the situation took over." Bear in mind this was his defence counsel putting as nice a spin on it as he could. Ie, the guy initially acted in self defence… then he just resorted to giving the guy a good kicking.

As I said, who knows what actually happened and who knows what the CPS could actually prove. Hell, maybe there's a shop security video showing him just trying to fuck the kid up that his defence lawyer bargained out of being shown to the Beak? We'll never know what went on in the Court robing room.

The law in England and Wales is quite clear – you have a very good right to self defence – far greater in some respects than allowed by some US states even! Florida for example has only recently given people the people the right to strike first – a right which has always existed here.

One point of commonality between our two jurisdictions however is that the law in neither country will protect someone from just settling down to give someone a good kicking once they are no longer imperilled. I see no reason why this case couldn't also have happened in the States, assuming the defendant truly had overstepped the mark of course, and that we can't tell from a mere newspaper report.

As for this being indicative of English laws on self defence – frankly I really don't think anything a Magistrate, (a lay version of Judge Judy), does is a particularly good example of substantive English law.

[bexren76 0]

I assume that you do not actually understand the law of self DEFENCE in the UK in the same way that I have no idea of what your law is. Dorbie is correct - self defence is not the same as retaliation. Force must be reasonable eg punch for punch as opposed to punch for shooting someone. It is perfectly possible to start off acting in self defence and go on to be retaliating / avenging oneself, or start off using reasonable force and then "go over the top" by doing something disproportionate. If what you are saying is you can understand wanting to give the kids a kicking, no doubt many people will empathise with that point of view. However, that is an emotional point and although mitigation is not a defence in law.

If the shopkeeper was advised to plead guilty on the basis that he began by acting in self defence and went on either to go over the top or to have a go back after the need to defend himself had passed then he was advised correctly about his legal position.

Presumably you and others think this is daft but the law is designed to stop people who act disproportionately (eg shooting someone who starts a scrap in the pub using only his fists) from getting out of the shooting by saying that he was acting in self defence. It is logical to legislate against the idea that once someone has a had a crack at you, the gloves can come off and you can do whatever you like to them in return.

Yes, I am a lawyer (albeit a defence lawyer) and yes, I have heard all the lawyer jokes.

mr2mk1g - Also - wot ee said.

[bexren76 0]

On a totally separate note - just wondering where you jump if you don't mind me asking - I have met only one other skydiving lawyer so far! I jump at Weston.

[shropshire 0]

Follow the evidence trail.... Tiss in his profile

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[bexren76 0]

DOH. Not that I'm not good at my job or anything, honest........

[shropshire 0]

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[juanesky 0]

Quote

>

You crack me up when you get your panties in a wad over British posts. They make me laugh my tits off, dont' you know?. In the main, we couldn't give a tinkers cuss what Jonny foriegner thinks. So please watch your blood pressure old man and have a jolly spiffing day.

Toodle pips.

Oh man, where to start? oh yes, first find a bro, for your sagging issues, and hit the gym, work on pectorals.

You should look the posts of your countrymen, including yours when you get all upset because someone either offended your queen, culture, etc. Just a few posts above, there is one poster that goes on the same tactics of trying to prove "how culturaly superior the UK is". That is what I laugh about.
It is funny that people living in a racist kingdom, where all is good as long as you are a good white boy, with roots in the place, where you have big brother watching over you,olld houses, shitty food, and shitty atitudes against foreigners. I can help but to frown, and see that the most outcries for this superiority complex is mostly due by a dubious glory past pride of your people that is based on the enslavery of many cultures, and you all forget that most hot spots today is a direct consequence of your leaders fucked up decisions, yet you still revere your royalty.

Some people just never learn..lol

Edit to spell

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[shropshire 0]

Thanks - it's was intended as light banter and you took it that way, it would seem -


As we [should] know :- Peoples apparent attitude in SC dont always equate to their real persona

All the best.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[juanesky 0]

lol. It goes both ways you know?. But I have been in the Uk, so just spare me with you never been here theme.

You too, and blue skies

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[SkyDekker 1,141]

Quote

Maybe you need to travel there, you want to see my personal pictures while in either Qatar, Iraq, Kuwait, Dubai?

Sure, only problem is, most muslims don't live there.....

[juanesky 0]

Quote

Quote

Maybe you need to travel there, you want to see my personal pictures while in either Qatar, Iraq, Kuwait, Dubai?

Sure, only problem is, most muslims don't live there.....

Guess those are christian countries now, aren't they?

where on earth did I mention where most muslims live?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[trigger 0]

Sure, only problem is, most muslims don't live there.....***

Nope they're all Islamic=muslim

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Edited to add - i have no problems with people not having left the US unless, as has happened to me a few times, they then tell me there is nothing better outside!! (incidentally, 3 out of 4 people who said this to me were texan, and one of those had never left his own state. )

I think I went 8 years without leaving California, during which time I did college, starting diving, did one skydive (technically Las Vegas isn't part of CA, but it's damn nearly), hike a bunch of 14k peaks. It wouldn't be a matter of nothing better outside, but there's a lot of good stuff that doesn't involve such a long travel (or carbon emissions).

I'm not willing to say the same for Texas - my biased outsider view bases all I know of that state based on one hour stopovers in Houston and a cross country trek that included driving past Amarillo and camping overnight.

Personally I prefer flying to the Yucatan and the Caribbean over Hawaii, which is preferred by some who are afraid to leave US borders. But as I said, until recently that didn't need a passport either.

[Stumpy 256]

Thats totally cool - you never said there is nothing worth visiting outside the US!
For the record, i love the US, i just wouldn't want to live there! (You guys don't get enough holiday!)

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[shropshire 0]

<<(You guys don't get enough holiday!)>> Which is probably why some of them never get the chance to get out much.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

<<(You guys don't get enough holiday!)>> Which is probably why some of them never get the chance to get out much.

the lack of vacation time (and the unwillingness of many to use what little is given) is a root cause of many problems here. When I contracted, in theory you could take as much time off as you liked, but it's very difficult to plan for the ends (and more importantly, beginnings) of the gig. I recently went full time and get better than average - 18 days plus about 10 holidays. Not enough.

[shropshire 0]

I'd also heard that some companies disuade staff from taking their holiday in long blocks too.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

You should look the posts of your countrymen, including yours when you get all upset because someone either offended your queen, culture, etc. Just a few posts above, there is one poster that goes on the same tactics of trying to prove "how culturaly superior the UK is". That is what I laugh about.
It is funny that people living in a racist kingdom, where all is good as long as you are a good white boy, with roots in the place, where you have big brother watching over you,olld houses, shitty food, and shitty atitudes against foreigners. I can help but to frown, and see that the most outcries for this superiority complex is mostly due by a dubious glory past pride of your people that is based on the enslavery of many cultures, and you all forget that most hot spots today is a direct consequence of your leaders fucked up decisions, yet you still revere your royalty.

Some people just never learn..lol

Edit to spell

Jesus Juanesky! Good old GB is a melting pot of every colour you just could imagine! You need to find out, man.

But how could you do that? Just apply for a passport, enter a cheap plane and - whoosh! You'll be in a complete different world w/in few hours, man. Juan, you'll love it. A world full of colours and free-minded folks.

Just as a sidenote: "Racist" is something one should not say. Bad habit, ya know. We do not have such word in daily life, not in main Europe nor in GB, where our beloved island inhabitants live.

Check it out

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[juanesky 0]

Wrong. I lived there for over a year. I speak from experience. Why do you think there are issues with the muslims in there? are they accepted?. hmm no.

So are many, many other races. Just like pretty much anywhere in the western civilization. But it is different. Are most won't be able to make it big, well, mostly because race.

About your denigrant insinuation that I have never traveled, or taken a plane to go to other countries, well, it just proves my point on the racism.
Do you realize I was in Germany about 6 months ago?.

Just one more thing, Racist is not about saying it, is about not acting it. Acting on it is the bad habit, thank you for proving my point.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Erroll 49]

Quote

... the muslims in there? are they accepted?. hmm no.
So are many, many other races.

Muslim is a race? Hmmmm.... Methinks you should volunteer for Nightingale's project.