Exit Delay, stop pushing me

[FlyingJarhead 0]

the person infront of me exited and i found my place in the door, i was trying to give him a good 10-15 seconds, after not waiting long enough on the prior jump, i came close and always wanted to be safe as possible. anyways i was met with someone behind me yelling at me to go, at around 8 seconds and i didnt feel comfortable, so i guess all im trying to say is be nice to nublets

[Andy9o8 0]

Here's a thread on that very subject:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1439849#1439849

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

If you are new and not sure how long to wait before exiting then talk with an instuctor at your DZ. The amount of time may change day to day depending on the upper winds and the aircraft.
You will get people yelling at you if you wait to long. You are screwing them on the spot. It' not fair to screw others because you don't know how much time to take. So as I said ask before you go instead of just taking a wild guess.

[DougH 270]

Tell them to fuck off!

Better to have a second pass than to sacrifice saftey!!!

This is assuming that you aren't taking too long. This weekend we needed at least 10 seconds for saftey. So did you really need to wait that long?

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Liemberg 0]

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Better to have a second pass than to sacrifice saftey!!!

Ever thought about the possibility that in certain circumstances the mere "making a second pass" could be sacrificing safety?

You might be dropping into obstacels in the form of friends under parachute @ different altitudes that are (like yourself) through a quirk of faith less than the prescribed distance away from clouds and therefore may turn up in the last instance just as you are opening a parachute...

That is asuming that on a clear blue sky day you can always spot all the open canopies underneath from altitude...

You don't want to hit the one you missed - now do you?

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[billvon 2,400]

>anyways i was met with someone behind me yelling at me to go . . .

When that happens to me, I take off my helmet to hear him better, turn around and see what he wants (just in case he's actually saying something like "traffic beneath! Don't go!") This serves three purposes:

1) If on the off chance he is actually telling me something important I will hear him.

2) The whole process takes 15-20 seconds which gives me plenty of separation anyway.

3) It will piss him off if he really IS yelling "go go go!" - this may encourage him not to do so in the future.

[chrismgtis 0]

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>anyways i was met with someone behind me yelling at me to go . . .

When that happens to me, I take off my helmet to hear him better, turn around and see what he wants (just in case he's actually saying something like "traffic beneath! Don't go!") This serves three purposes:

1) If on the off chance he is actually telling me something important I will hear him.

2) The whole process takes 15-20 seconds which gives me plenty of separation anyway.

3) It will piss him off if he really IS yelling "go go go!" - this may encourage him not to do so in the future.

You sure standing near the door with your helmet off is a smart move?

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[DougH 270]

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Ever thought about the possibility that in certain circumstances the mere "making a second pass" could be sacrificing safety?

Ok, so if the uppers are cranking at 40mph, and giving the proper delay between groups means that half the otter load lands off field in an area with poor outs we should ............ Fill in the blank for me please, because I think it is better to give proper seperation.

In my way way limited experince the only time some one was yelling at me to get out of the door, they wanted me to get out too early for what the conditions warranted. I also tend to see my fellow newly licensed jumpers leaving too fast, not too slow, so I doubt this guy was taking 30 seconds in the door.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[billvon 2,400]

>You sure standing near the door with your helmet off is a smart move?

You're right; I could fall out!

[icevideot 0]

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When that happens to me, I take off my helmet to hear him better, turn around and see what he wants

This would definitely get a response and in some circumstances I am prone to actions like these. A little warning is in order here though. I know a few DZOs that would send you looking for another dz to jump at. You didn't give any details about aircraft, winds, size of load or number of groups so I am not sure if you know much about the way dz's operate. Believe it or not, they want to make money most of the time even though they usually suck at it. If it is a turbine aircraft and this results in a go-around you will usually shoulder all the blame, even if you were right. A lot of dzo's will only see how many dollars (probably more than you would guess) the extra fuel and flight time cost. If you just like to see fireworks, this is the route to to take and please email me with the results. I would love to hear about it. If you are really concerned about safety, talk to your instructors, S&TA, DZO and anyone else you can think of until you either understand what exit seperation needs to be or the over excited people behind you have been told to settle down. Whichever needs to happen. Safety is important, but don't forget where the money is made. It is rarely with us up-jumpers. We just pay for gas so the students and tandems can keep flying. You start burning more gas than you buy and you will wear your welcome thin in a hurry.

You handle this your way but remember the guys with the advice on here will not share any heat whatsoever if you step on the wrong toes.

Cheers

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[Samurai136 0]

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Safety is important, but don't forget where the money is made. It is rarely with us up-jumpers. We just pay for gas so the students and tandems can keep flying. You start burning more gas than you buy and you will wear your welcome thin in a hurry.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Are you running for a Regional Director position or National Director?

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[billvon 2,400]

>I know a few DZOs that would send you looking for another dz to jump at.

No problem! If there are DZO's who would get that mad at someone who wants extra time between groups, then I'm happy to find another one that doesn't cut corners quite so much. So far I haven't found any DZO's like that, though, even at places like the WFFC.

>If you just like to see fireworks, this is the route to to take and
>please email me with the results. I would love to hear about it.

I think you'd be disappointed. This happens at Perris with some regularity (people yelling "go!" and getting annoyed) and sometimes results in multiple passes. If it happens a lot, Dan gets on the PA and gives one of his "come on guys, you only need seven seconds between groups, stop making us do goarounds."

[stratostar 5]

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When that happens to me, I take off my helmet to hear him better, turn around and see what he wants

Seems reasonable to me, it is quite hard to hear at times.
The same can be said for a young jumper who is getting yelled at to GO,GO,GO, with a full face on it may very well sound like NO,NO,NO.

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I know a few DZOs that would send you looking for another dz to jump at.

So we have two posters who have 6 and 7 years in the sport, making statements as to a DZO who would run off jumpers who take their safety in to their own hands and do the right thing when it comes to exiting the AC, I think this is something we teach and can be found in the SIMS as well.
And maybe even ask for a go around in order to exit in a safe way at a safe spot, safe time.
Again don't we teach this and USPA preach's it.
WTF are we wasting the time to teach this info if DZO's are going to kick off jumpers who do as taught to do.

If you jump at a DZ that won't give you a go around with out bitching about it, you need to find another DZ to jump at!

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We just pay for gas so the students and tandems can keep flying.

Your correct, STUDENTS keep the bills paid, and just who is the last to exit the AC 90% of the time?
Solo's, coached students, AFF's, tandems, as an instructor I have had to ask for go arounds due to long on the spot a fair amount, NEVER have I had any DZO anywhere give me or any other I's I have worked with
shit for asking to do a go around. If they did I would tell them to stick it in their ass and fuck off, our jobs as instructors is to keep the students safe, part of that would be leaving the AC at the right time and at the right spot.

Anything less then that is cheating/risking the students.
I'll have my gear bag packed and heading out the door long before any DZO can ask me to leave, if they can't do a 180 downwind jumprun or a full go around without getting into my shit for asking, it don't cost that much more to go around if it's needed.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Samurai136 0]

I apologize for the mis understanding my facetious comment created.

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the person infront of me exited and i found my place in the door, i was trying to give him a good 10-15 seconds, after not waiting long enough on the prior jump, i came close and always wanted to be safe as possible. anyways i was met with someone behind me yelling at me to go, at around 8 seconds and i didnt feel comfortable, so i guess all im trying to say is be nice to nublets

To The OP:

This sounds as if you are one of three solo jumpers exiting the plane? Correct? In this situation, I would let the other jumper go ahead. It would seem they are satisfied with the spot.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[stratostar 5]

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I apologize

No reason to apologize to me as far as I'm concerned, your welcome to your opinion as is everyone else here.

I see a lot of jumpers unwilling to stand up for what is right, because their afraid to stand up to the DZO cuz they don't want to become "unwelcome".

I say fuck that BS, grab your balls and stick up for your right to skydive safe, and if asking to go around or taking the time needed to allow the jumpers in front of you the space needed, is making your jump safe or safer for others, then ask for it, if you get any shit for doing so find a new DZ, it's that simple.

I have left two DZ's over the years, only one of them I have been back to after being asked to return by the DZO some years later.

The other I refuse to go back to, but that is ok I'm still "unwelcome" there anyway, and even if I was welcome I wouldn't return.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[GravityGirl 0]

Dear FlyingJarhead,

Next time come into the store and we can discuss some of that factors for that particular day.

Today for example, we had very unusual winds for San Diego. Load one consited of wind shift, dust devils and wind sheers. It was really sketchy to watch and most Jumpmasters opted to stay on the ground. We then went on weather hold. After the temperatured settled in at a nice 89 degrees and the winds were steady out of the west again, nerves were still on edge. The uppers were hauling out of the east for a few loads even though we were running a west jump run. So by delaying your exit you were putting the jumpers behind you out way over the lake.

If you are doing a solo as in taking 100% responsibility for yourself, then find out what the uppers are doing. Where they switch, and what that all means to you and your degree of separation.

If this is greek to you, please come into the store. My door is always open, and your are welcome to ask any and all questions necessary.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[NWPoul 1]

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the person infront of me exited and i found my place in the door, i was trying to give him a good 10-15 seconds, after not waiting long enough on the prior jump, i came close and always wanted to be safe as possible. anyways i was met with someone behind me yelling at me to go, at around 8 seconds and i didnt feel comfortable, so i guess all im trying to say is be nice to nublets

IMHO this should be discussed between you and others on a load (and may be with DZO or load organizer) on a groung or at least before the door opened...
8 sec (or less) delay IMO much usual than 10-15 sec (though it can be not enough in teortical calculation for sure safety delay) So if others on a board (and organizer) would't be happy wait for your exit so long you can go last (with all seconds you'd want) or fuck this unsafe DZ and find another (where DZO will be happy to throw solos with 15sec interval)

My point - You are not alone in the load...sure you have your right an a safe delay, but others may have their right to compromise the delay for the spot:) so tell em that they are wrong on a ground - may be they listen you and those, who will jump AFTER you give you the same delay that you give to the Guy before you (or show you the way to the nearest @long delays" DZ:) )

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Billvon
When that happens to me, I take off my helmet to hear him better, turn around and see what he wants (just in case he's actually saying something like "traffic beneath! Don't go!") This serves three purposes:

1) If on the off chance he is actually telling me something important I will hear him.

2) The whole process takes 15-20 seconds which gives me plenty of separation anyway.

3) It will piss him off if he really IS yelling "go go go!" - this may encourage him not to do so in the future.

4) The rest of the load may jump with shorter delay (those who yelled at you just over your head) so you will farther from the divers below you (those who relatilively under your control) and closer to the divers above you (less controlled area) so what you have win?

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[FlyingJarhead 0]

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Here's a thread on that very subject:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1439849#1439849

my reply to you is, well now heres another thread on this very subject, maybe it will remain in your heads. the next thing i have to say is, if you want the spot, just ask.

the day i jumped was calm and blue skies, maybe they just needed there fix, but i needed my time.

[Andy9o8 0]

You realize I wasn't arguing with you, I was simply providing the readers with an additional useful source of info: another thread where we had a similar discussion.

[sundevil777 93]

No need to take their verbal abuse without responding.

Know what delay should be your target, then ignore them or flip them off, or yell back at them to STFU.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[JohnMitchell 14]

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After the temperatured settled in at a nice 89 degrees and the winds were steady out of the west again, nerves were still on edge. The uppers were hauling out of the east for a few loads even though we were running a west jump run. So by delaying your exit you were putting the jumpers behind you out way over the lake.

Sounds like jumprun should have been eastbound. Anyway, with a tail wind on jumprun, separation time can be much less, the opposite situation of strong headwinds.

[icevideot 0]

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I see a lot of jumpers unwilling to stand up for what is right, because their afraid to stand up to the DZO cuz they don't want to become "unwelcome".

I see your point but you didn't really understand what I was saying. As a videographer, I often get out on iffy spots, secure that the tandem will be fine and knowing I should make it back okay. As an AFF instructor I have very little hesitation about calling a go around. Everyone may not be happy about it but I have never really been fussed at over this. Now let someone with 100 jumps try to justify 15 seconds from an Otter with 20 knot uppers and 4 tandems with video behind him.... This is not exactly the same thing. What I said was to seek out an instructor or S&TA and take the opportunity to learn how these things are decided. I also said not to stop talking to people until he understands or the people yelling understand what the seperation would have been. There was mention of not enough seperation on a previous jump. We don't know how much the jumper drifted or even tracked to get too close to another group. There are too many variables here for me to say who was right. I wasn't there. Just be careful of the choice to pi$# where you eat.

Another possible side to this while talking about it. Otter, light uppers 7 second seperation is working well. That means 7 seconds from one group leaving the plane until the next group leaves. Don't rush the 7 second count but don't count 7, then climb out, then relax and breathe and then ready, set, go. That can easily result in 14 seconds and 1 of our new friends with 30 jumps faced with landing off. They should be fine, but I wouldn't like to be the reason someone gets hurt if it is this easy to avoid the situation in the first place.

Flame away but nothing fits in every situation. There are always variables and we all make mistakes. Never stop learning.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[JohnMitchell 14]

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the person infront of me exited and i found my place in the door, i was trying to give him a good 10-15 seconds, after not waiting long enough on the prior jump, i came close and always wanted to be safe as possible. anyways i was met with someone behind me yelling at me to go, at around 8 seconds and i didnt feel comfortable,

Although there are variables, usually 7-8 seconds is enough between solo jumpers. We use about that much time between tandems when winds are light aloft. 10-15 seconds is more appropriate for groups that need room to break off high and track away from each other.

Sounds like you also had a tailwind that day, meaning you needed less time between exits that usual.

[kallend 1,625]

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Ever thought about the possibility that in certain circumstances the mere "making a second pass" could be sacrificing safety?

Ok, so if the uppers are cranking at 40mph, and giving the proper delay between groups means that half the otter load lands off field in an area with poor outs we should ............ Fill in the blank for me please, because I think it is better to give proper seperation.

.

Misconception. If the uppers are strong enough to require a long delay, then the aircraft is moving slowly enough that the time over an acceptable spot increases to accommodate. Provided, of course, that everyone knows what they're doing.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[fcajump 153]

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I see a lot of jumpers unwilling to stand up for what is right, because their afraid to stand up to the DZO cuz they don't want to become "unwelcome".

I see your point but you didn't really understand what I was saying. As a videographer, I often get out on iffy spots, secure that the tandem will be fine and knowing I should make it back okay. As an AFF instructor I have very little hesitation about calling a go around. Everyone may not be happy about it but I have never really been fussed at over this. Now let someone with 100 jumps try to justify 15 seconds from an Otter with 20 knot uppers and 4 tandems with video behind him.... This is not exactly the same thing. What I said was to seek out an instructor or S&TA and take the opportunity to learn how these things are decided. I also said not to stop talking to people until he understands or the people yelling understand what the seperation would have been. There was mention of not enough seperation on a previous jump. We don't know how much the jumper drifted or even tracked to get too close to another group. There are too many variables here for me to say who was right. I wasn't there. Just be careful of the choice to pi$# where you eat.

Another possible side to this while talking about it. Otter, light uppers 7 second seperation is working well. That means 7 seconds from one group leaving the plane until the next group leaves. Don't rush the 7 second count but don't count 7, then climb out, then relax and breathe and then ready, set, go. That can easily result in 14 seconds and 1 of our new friends with 30 jumps faced with landing off. They should be fine, but I wouldn't like to be the reason someone gets hurt if it is this easy to avoid the situation in the first place.

Flame away but nothing fits in every situation. There are always variables and we all make mistakes. Never stop learning.

Most of the variables on timing can be solved with a simple speed/time chart at the door. AFTER turning on jumprun and triming the plane for jump, the pilot calls the GROUNDSPEED to us. The jumper closest to the chart looks up the speed and calls to everyone what the delay between groups is to be. As we are talking groundspeed, the upper winds are already figured in and everyone knows what the appropriate delay should be. Size/number of groups may be figured in, but does not change things much.

Just one solution,
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...