England: "Homicides Soar"

[JohnRich 4]

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There are cultural influences that dwarf your pet cause as factors, like the rise in youth violence on housing estates and the increase in related drug useage.

Bingo!

Crime is not caused by gun ownership.
Crime is caused by culture.

And we got there in just 100 posts. It usually takes several hundred before we reach this milestone in understanding.

Quit taking away guns from the law-abiding, and concentrate on the actual criminals and the cultural root causes of crime.

[JohnRich 4]

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lol John you are way too practiced at this debate. Your opponents cower in your shadow by arguing over side points and avoiding the main issue...do gun bans increase or decrease violent gun crimes?

What I can't help but notice is they unofficially admit the gunban's failure to decrease violent gun crime by arguing theses side issues.

Thank you for noticing.
They also seem to acknowledge that, even in their view, the gun ban was implemented for no good reason, but they approve of all that taking of property anyway. Go figure.

[JohnRich 4]

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anyone saying a gun ban has led to the increase in homicides is clearly misguided.

I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that a gun ban doesn't lead to a decrease in homicides. And therefore they are unjustifiable.

In fact, there is no statistical correlation anywhere, to any gun control law and the lowering of a gun crime rate. I can trot out a government study on that, if you wish.

Criminals ignore gun control laws and do what they want anyway. Therefore, gun control laws are useless at stopping gun crime. All they do is deny rights to the law-abiding who aren't the problem.

The only way to stop crime is to attack the criminals, not the tools that they choose to employ. And to attack the social and cultural factors that create criminals.

[JohnRich 4]

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Why does a person need to carry a dirty great big knife in the UK?

What difference does it make whether the knife is dirty or clean? I see that folding pocketknives with blades under 3-inches in length are legal. But I wouldn't automatically consider anyone with a 4" blade to be someone with evil intent who deserves 2 years in prison. And some members of Parliment want to make that 5 years!

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I assume that the carrying of knives on a person is also illegal in the US.

Incorrect. It's a state by state law issue, but I think all permit it to some degree. In Texas, it's not illegal to carry a knife in public as long as the blade is less than five inches in length. But if you're hiking, camping, fishing, hunting, etc., then anything goes.

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The purpose is so that when we search people and find a bladed article they are arrested and the article is seized.

So British police go around arresting people who haven't actually done anything wrong, just because they have a pocketknife? And for this "crime", they face two years in prison! How nice...

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Its desired effect is to kurb knife crime and it has worked to a tremendous effect despite recent media publicity.

So you're saying that the news reports of a dramatic increase in knife crime are lies? For example, from the original news story: "Deaths by stabbing have averaged 228 a year since 1997, up nine per cent from their former level. "

[mr2mk1g 10]

Dimmit, with one of your above posts we almost had absolute and complete agreement.

It's a pity we get into these arguments because in real life on a DZ we'd probably just click completely. Seriously, we're both "gun nuts" (my friends are shocked that I essentially regularly post on the "restriction" side of the argument on here. I'm a gun owner and shooter, and proponent of gun rights that knows a frightening amount about military firearms history and generally someone who's viewed by my peers as the stereotypical "gun nut").

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I'm saying that a gun ban doesn't lead to a decrease in homicides.

Yup, that's probably true so far in the UK at least. I don't propose to comment on anywhere else in the world.

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In fact, there is no statistical correlation anywhere, to any gun control law and the gun crime rate. I can trot out a government study on that, if you wish.

Absolutely! (my primary reason for joining these threads is that you usually start with a post appearing to suggest that there is a correlation and then give up by about page four when you finally admit there is no correlation – I get frustrated because I really can't see why we can't just start with that proposition – we both know it's the inevitable outcome of any such argument).

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Criminals ignore gun control laws and do what they want anyway. Therefore, gun control laws are useless at stopping gun crime. All they do is deny rights to the law-abiding

Yep, absolutely. Though I have to note that gun crime laws are necessary to punish those who misuse firearms for criminal intent, (though I fully accept there is a distinction between control and crime).

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who aren't the problem.

Almost got me in agreement here. We aren't the major problem. And control of "us" probably wont solve the major issues there actually are apparent in society.

But overall I do see why government can see gun owners as a "problem". In the UK in recent history we have a couple of instances of legal gun owners causing, in one go, a whole quarter of all annual firearms murders in one year during horrific massacres of children and innocents. Remember that by setting this against the background of our respective county's usual firearm homicide rates and population, in the US this would translate to a four figure number somewhere similar to that which occurred on 9/11 !

As such, whilst I do not agree with the stance, I can at least understand it.

[kallend 1,679]

Let's not forget that homicides are UP through most of the American south where guns are easy to acquire, and DOWN in NYC, LA and Chicago where guns are (in theory at least) banned.

Note to John Rich.. I did NOT write "dramatically" or "significantly" about the reduction in homicides, just like I didn't last time.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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Are small pocketknives permissable?

Yup. Up to 3" and not locking are always legal. Above that they can be classified as an "offensive weapon" unless the bearer has a "reasonable excuse" for carrying it.

So; camping - reasonable excuse. Fishing - reasonable cause. Carpet fitter - reasonable excuse. (etc, etc) About to stab some bloke outside the pub - not reasonable excuse – arrested.

I love the term "reasonable" when used in it's legal context. It's sublime. It's simple. If it's not reasonable then it's defacto "unreasonable". Who can possible excuse someone for doing something "unreasonable"? – it's unreasonable! If it's not "unreasonable" then it must be reasonable, and you've not done anything wrong. Perfect.

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So British police go around arresting people who haven't actually done anything wrong, just because they have a pocketknife? And for this "crime", they face two years in prison? How nice...

Well, as we established above, they're only arrested if they have a large knife and have no reason for carrying it. And as evidenced by the article you posted in the first post in this thread, the VAST majority of people who are found in possession of such an item are given just a "caution" (a verbal telling off by a police officer).

[kelpdiver 2]

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Let's not forget that homicides are UP through most of the American south where guns are easy to acquire, and DOWN in NYC, LA and Chicago where guns are (in theory at least) banned.

That sounds almost exactly like post 1.

'How can you *not* ban guns? Proof is in the south, where homicides are up 3%. But Chicago, where you can *not* have guns (and has a much higher homicide count and rate), is down 2%. The statistical proof is self evident, jerks.'

[dorbie 0]

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Why does a person need to carry a dirty great big knife in the UK?

What difference does it make whether the knife is dirty or clean?

And you want to critique UK culture.

[Amazon 7]

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Yup. Up to 3" and not locking are always legal. Above that they can be classified as an "offensive weapon" unless the bearer has a "reasonable excuse" for carrying it.

Must be a real bitch for MacCloud to hide that hog sticker he carries.. no wonder they moved him over to France.

[Andy9o8 0]

For the life of me, I can't understand why the average American should really give two shits about what gun laws the Brits do and do not deem appropriate for themselves to have. The legality of guns in the UK affects the average American about as much as the stylishness of burkhas in Kabul.

[rehmwa 2]

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And to attack the social and cultural factors that create criminals.

god, you are such a bleeding heart liberal


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{posts not to be taken internally, void where prohibited, always consult you doctor, do not drive heavy machinery}

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[akarunway 1]

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For the life of me, I can't understand why the average American should really give two shits about what gun laws the Brits do and do not deem appropriate for themselves to have. The legality of guns in the UK affects the average American about as much as the stylishness of burkhas in Kabul.

Totally agree. If the USA kept our noses outta everyones beeswax the world would be a better place. BLAME CORP. AMERICA

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[akarunway 1]

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Let's not forget that homicides are UP through most of the American south where guns are easy to acquire, and DOWN in NYC, LA and Chicago where guns are (in theory at least) banned.

Note to John Rich.. I did NOT write "dramatically" or "significantly" about the reduction in homicides, just like I didn't last time.

Aren't gun banned in DC?http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/13/AR2006071301745_pf.html

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[downwardspiral 0]

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What do you mean ban pointy objects? If you mean knives then yes. They are prohibited and dealt with as bladed articles. Why does a person need to carry a dirty great big knife in the UK? Not like your surviving in the wilderness. I fail to see the relevance of this point. I assume that the carrying of knives on a person is also illegal in the US.

The purpose is so that when we search people and find a bladed article they are arrested and the article is seized. Its desired effect is to kurb knife crime and it has worked to a tremendous effect despite recent media publicity. The power to stop and searc and prosecute people carrying is an amazing tool at keeping our streets safe. As it happens, in all the searches I have conducted I have never found a knife and only ever arrested one person in posession of a knife who was walking down the road with a very real intent to use it there and then. Thats in 3 years, oh and as for firearm, I don't think many officers see a gun on the streets in their whole career

I asked two questions. Earlier it was stated that the gun ban was not introduced to curb violent gun crimes. Yet knives are banned to curb violent knife crimes. This confuses me.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[billvon 2,471]

You forgot the ***DISCLAIMER***.

[craddock 0]

ridiculious statement

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[rehmwa 2]

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You forgot the ***DISCLAIMER***.

I think not - here's a cut and paste

"{posts not to be taken internally, void where prohibited, always consult you doctor, do not drive heavy machinery}"


{applicable taxes apply in New Jersey, runny stool and headaches have been noted in less the 0.2% of test subjects}

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[craddock 0]

I don't have time to reasearch the laws of all 50 states but my favorite knife that I own is a BladeTech Pro Hunter designed by Tim Wegner. It is a folder with an overall length of 8.5" and a blade length of 3.5. I is legal for me to carry in ever state I have lived and in the 5 Midwest states that I currently cover for work. It is actually illegal in the state that I currently reside if I "carry with the intent to use unlawfully." That is not my intention.
Is this knife legal over there? Could I whip it out to open some boxes in front of an officer like I could over here without problems? Just curious

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[rushmc 18]

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Let's not forget that homicides are UP through most of the American south where guns are easy to acquire, and DOWN in NYC, LA and Chicago where guns are (in theory at least) banned.

That sounds almost exactly like post 1.

'How can you *not* ban guns? Proof is in the south, where homicides are up 3%. But Chicago, where you can *not* have guns (and has a much higher homicide count and rate), is down 2%. The statistical proof is self evident, jerks.'

In what south??
See below

GOVERNOR BUSH NOTES CORRELATION BETWEEN
ARMED, LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS AND FLORIDA'S LOWER CRIME RATE

When queried this week about his state's declining crime rate, Florida Governor Jeb Bush (R) told reporters from the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel, "Law abiding citizens that have guns for protection actually probably are part of the reason we have a lower crime rate."

Florida is one of 40 states with Right-to-Carry statutes that allow their law-abiding citizens to carry a concealed firearm for self-defense. In addition, the state last year passed NRA-backed "Castle Doctrine" legislation that allows citizens to "stand their ground" and defend themselves against an attacker in a place where they have a legal right to be.

Florida's crime rate dropped for the 14th straight year and the crime rate is currently at its lowest level since 1971.

Edited to add: Pulled from the NRA newsletter (if that really makes any difference)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,679]

Florida doen't count. Geriatrics don't go around on drive-by shooting sprees.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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Florida doen't count. Geriatrics don't go around on drive-by shooting sprees.

That was what I needed on this Friday afternoon!!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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Geriatrics don't go around on drive-by shooting sprees.

I believe that only happens on internet forums

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Scoop 0]

You have to have a lawful excuse. For example miltary uniform or a blade that scottish wear when in traditional dress. Using an 8.5" hunting knife to open boxes is pretty sad in my opinion and not reasonable. I know if I did it at work I'd probably get the piss taken out of me

Luckily I have a stanley knife and a hook type for such eventualities. Also prevents me cutting myself accidently. If I was to have an industrial injury (for example stabbed myself in eye using knife to open boxes) I wouldn't get a penny. I am provided with suitable safe equipment to do so. Also I like whatever was in the box to still be in good condition when I open it and not have a great big gouge in it.

[rehmwa 2]

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Luckily I have a stanley knife and a hook type for such eventualities. Also prevents me cutting myself accidently. If I was to have an industrial injury (for example stabbed myself in eye using knife to open boxes) I wouldn't get a penny. I am provided with suitable safe equipment to do so. Also I like whatever was in the box to still be in good condition when I open it and not have a great big gouge in it.

thank goodness the government was there to make sure this all happened. how would you or your employer EVER have figured it out on your own

{Your results may vary, some side effects include nausea, sold as is}

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants