billvon 2,406
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Quotewhere would we all be now, had american auto manfucturers made an all-out effort to get hybrid (or alternative, whatever) cars into every garage in america?
Probably where we are now, only with automakers more unwilling to try to offer fuel efficient vehicles that experience also showed that people wouldn't buy.
We had American automakers offering electric cars. GM offered the EV-1, producing abotu 1,000 of them. I actually got the chance to take one for a spin. It was a neat little vehicle with better accelleration than I thought it would have. But, it was experimental and offered via three-year leases. I think they had less than 1,000 people actually lease them. The EV-1 was scrapped afterwards - GM would have had to maintain stockpiles of spare parts, which would be prohibitively expensive. Also, they won a court challenege over emissions regulations in California.
Of course, other problems with the vehicles back then included issues with the batteries - they didn't keep a charge very long; the batteries also didn't have a very long life. Also, there were the problems of people having to plug the things in an wait, and the power bills they would face, making these vehicles pretty expensive to operate.
These problems are being solved by advances in electrical engineering. Batteries charge more quickly and last longer. Capacitors are now more capable. Etc. But these are also advances being made by engineers in fields that are generally unfamiliar to the car makers. Once these scientists make these discoveries and apply the technologies, then they can push them to the automakers.
In the past, the buying public didn't want expensive cars that were expensive to maintain and not capable of doing everything they wanted a car to do. Simply put, those earlier models were inferior products. A Honda Accord was a much more senisble buy, wasn't it?
But, now the tide is changing. The late 70's and 80's saw the boom in fuel efficient Japanese cars due to the fuel crises. By the mid-90's, the US automakers were supercompetitive again.
Now we are simply seeing the market at work. Once these efficient vehicles become economically more feasible for the masses, they'll create the market, and the automakers will follow the money for their own self interest.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Wasn't it considerate of the oil companies to raise prices at the pump after Katrina, so that we'd be used to it when they raised the prices back to that level in April??
Speed Racer
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tbrown 26
Enjoy the $3 gas while it lasts. Very soon, these will be "the good old days".
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
QuoteA few comments on your post:
If car companies want to stay in business, they build what people want. And people want heated seats, LCD TV's etc; they're not that interested in fuel economy. (At least until recently.) So in a capitalist society, customers rather than suppliers determine what gets developed. It's not the 'evil car companies in collusion with the oil companies' or anything.
hey bill. hope all is well for you on this friday. although i agree with what you're saying: the customer drives the mfr to produce what the customer wants, are you trying to tell me there was no one, in say, the 1990's that wanted a hybrid vehicle? i won't argue with you that the majority of the american population wanted more bells and buttons, rather than new 'technology' under the hood, but what i'm saying is that we're generations/versions/years behind where we should be with alternatives right now, becuase the car companies were lazy and R&D was stagnant. it is the IRR argument that you even point out: why spend the $ on new tech under the hood when only 1-2-3% of the purchasing market is even 'remotey interested'. here's why: because if you don't innovate, especially in a biz like car mfr, you're going to get beat by someone who will innovate. it's a risk, sure, and i bet the EA's that were done by their analysts showed conclusively that $ spent into new tech under the hood was a bigtime risk and the risk/reward ratio was better if they thought about how to work a dvd player into the center console. imho, the car companies deliberately sat stagnant and were lazy because that was the most profitable for them at the time. they had zero thoughts about 10/15/20/25yrs down the road (and why should they, car companies have only been around for say 1/2/3yrs, right??) and zero motivation to spend .01 on developing alternative fuels/technology. this is bad for the american consumer, and bad for the american economy. hence my willingness to let them 'die in a fire'. ;)
Quote
We don't have to. CAFE laws effectively transfer that cost to car companies, by requiring them to sell more efficient cars at low prices. Aggressive CAFE increases would rapidly drive efficiency developments, and at the same time make efficient cars cheaper (resulting in less pain at the consumer level.)
although CAFE laws do exactly what you're saying that does ZERO for me, you, and the next guy who are NOT buying a NEW car(in the immediate future)! do the CAFE laws suddenly make my 1999 vehicle more fuel efficient? does it give me a specific exemption at the pump to pay .15 less than the guy with the 2006 prius? no, it doesn't. so while all the legislation gets sorted out, the car companies get their acts together, and i save to buy a new vehicle i'm stuck with the responsibility of absorbing the higher fuel costs from now-->then.
btw, http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/menuitem.43ac99aefa80569eea57529cdba046a0/
seems like they're focused on 2008 model year. at the very earliest(and really its 2011, according to the PDF 'final rule'). what do you and i do from now till then? i still have to drive to/from work everyday in something...
upon further reading (this analysis may be incorrect tho, so take it as .02) seems like they are making SWEEPING changes from their current standards for 2008 MY (which is 22.5mpg for a mfr fleet) to a whopping 24MPG. WOW! a whole 1.5 additional mpg avg on their entire fleet... (pg 12, para 2, 'we estimate...)
Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell
Why don't you contact your Senators and Congressperson and demand they provide you with immediate relief by eliminating the taxes on gasoline? While you have them on the phone, tell them you want them to support legislation that removes restrictions on drilling for oil in the US mainland and offshore. Let them know you also want them to support incentives to build more oil refineries in the US.
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billvon 2,406
>there was no one, in say, the 1990's that wanted a hybrid vehicle?
There were few people in the 1990's who were willing/able to pay for a hybrid vehicle. (Or at least very few people.) That's one of the advantages of CAFE laws - they essentially require the more efficient cars to be priced more aggressively.
Hybrids, electric vehicles, hydrogen vehicles etc fall into the "neat" category for a lot of people. "Hey, great idea! Cool, hydrogen!" Then they go out and buy a Mustang.
>but what i'm saying is that we're generations/versions/years behind
>where we should be with alternatives right now, becuase the car
>companies were lazy and R&D was stagnant.
I don't think that's really true. Car companies _have_ developed electric vehicles - the RAV4-EV and the EV1 were available here a while back. If there had been massive lines for them, with people trying to out-bid each other for the few available ones, then there would now be a lot of them. That didn't happen.
But I do think you're right in that car companies that do not push this technology more aggressively will lose out in the end. Honda has a natural gas car. VW has several diesels that will run on biodiesel. Ford has a lot of flex-fuel cars. Toyota is leading the pack in hybrids. They are going to win in the long run because of that sort of innovation.
> imho, the car companies deliberately sat stagnant and were lazy
>because that was the most profitable for them at the time.
I think you're right - and would also add that the 'planning horizon' for most industries is less than 10 years. That's true of most american companies.
>although CAFE laws do exactly what you're saying that does ZERO
>for me, you, and the next guy who are NOT buying a NEW car(in
>the immediate future)! do the CAFE laws suddenly make my
>1999 vehicle more fuel efficient?
Nope. But it will affect the next car you buy - which is why it's so important to do it _now._ We have the technology to do it easily, but we have to be aggressive about it, because it does take time to replace a fleet of vehicles.
There were few people in the 1990's who were willing/able to pay for a hybrid vehicle. (Or at least very few people.) That's one of the advantages of CAFE laws - they essentially require the more efficient cars to be priced more aggressively.
Hybrids, electric vehicles, hydrogen vehicles etc fall into the "neat" category for a lot of people. "Hey, great idea! Cool, hydrogen!" Then they go out and buy a Mustang.
>but what i'm saying is that we're generations/versions/years behind
>where we should be with alternatives right now, becuase the car
>companies were lazy and R&D was stagnant.
I don't think that's really true. Car companies _have_ developed electric vehicles - the RAV4-EV and the EV1 were available here a while back. If there had been massive lines for them, with people trying to out-bid each other for the few available ones, then there would now be a lot of them. That didn't happen.
But I do think you're right in that car companies that do not push this technology more aggressively will lose out in the end. Honda has a natural gas car. VW has several diesels that will run on biodiesel. Ford has a lot of flex-fuel cars. Toyota is leading the pack in hybrids. They are going to win in the long run because of that sort of innovation.
> imho, the car companies deliberately sat stagnant and were lazy
>because that was the most profitable for them at the time.
I think you're right - and would also add that the 'planning horizon' for most industries is less than 10 years. That's true of most american companies.
>although CAFE laws do exactly what you're saying that does ZERO
>for me, you, and the next guy who are NOT buying a NEW car(in
>the immediate future)! do the CAFE laws suddenly make my
>1999 vehicle more fuel efficient?
Nope. But it will affect the next car you buy - which is why it's so important to do it _now._ We have the technology to do it easily, but we have to be aggressive about it, because it does take time to replace a fleet of vehicles.
did you see me blaming congress anywhere in my post? did you see me saying i wanted to ask 'them' for relief? did you see, anywhere, where i said was even 'entitled' to relief? did you see me say that new legislation was the answer?
no. you didn't see me say any of that.
at the most, i criticized the effectiveness of the CAFE laws on the here and now-->3/5+yrs and argued that the consumer is the real loser in the entire situation, as a result of laziness on the part of the auto mfr.
and for pete's sake, how can you miss the point that i'm focusing on the us auto mfr? did i maybe miss something where they became a part of congress?
or do YOU think congress/legislation is the answer to everything?
no. you didn't see me say any of that.
at the most, i criticized the effectiveness of the CAFE laws on the here and now-->3/5+yrs and argued that the consumer is the real loser in the entire situation, as a result of laziness on the part of the auto mfr.
and for pete's sake, how can you miss the point that i'm focusing on the us auto mfr? did i maybe miss something where they became a part of congress?
or do YOU think congress/legislation is the answer to everything?
Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell
sundevil777 94
Quote...and a lot fewer SUV's
Plenty of SUVs are small and get good mileage, plenty of cars and vehicles that aren't SUVs get lousy mileage. Why not just criticise vehicles that get lousy mileage?
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
I guess that depends on your definition of "good mileage".
Quotedid you see me blaming congress anywhere in my post? did you see me saying i wanted to ask 'them' for relief? did you see, anywhere, where i said was even 'entitled' to relief? did you see me say that new legislation was the answer?
no. you didn't see me say any of that.
Nope, and I didn't imply you did.
Quoteat the most, i criticized the effectiveness of the CAFE laws on the here and now-->3/5+yrs and argued that the consumer is the real loser in the entire situation, as a result of laziness on the part of the auto mfr.
Not true. As others have pointed out to you auto manufacturers make what consumers want. If you are going to blame someone, blame consumers.
Quoteand for pete's sake, how can you miss the point that i'm focusing on the us auto mfr? did i maybe miss something where they became a part of congress?
I didn't miss the point. I just disagreed with it and suggested the quickest way to get immediate relief is to eliminate the taxes on gasoline by contacting your Congressional Reps. Can you suggest a faster way?
Quoteor do YOU think congress/legislation is the answer to everything?
In this case, as I pointed out to you, they hold the keys to doing something about the price of gas immediately.
ExAFO 0
WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!
Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.
rushmc 18
QuoteWhy don't you contact your Senators and Congressperson and demand they provide you with immediate relief by eliminating the taxes on gasoline? While you have them on the phone, tell them you want them to support legislation that removes restrictions on drilling for oil in the US mainland and offshore. Let them know you also want them to support incentives to build more oil refineries in the US.
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.....and real in the EPA and go to fewer gas formulas. That alone made a quick difference after Katrina. (and before I am flamed I don't care if is the least poluting formula on average....)
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Lucky... 0
QuoteI, for one, do not like the rising oil prices.
I, for one, also think that they are a good thing, in the long run.
What caused the increase in mileage standards that we saw in the late 70's and early 80's? High oil prices.
What was it that led us to begin to find more efficient vehicles that polluted less? Higher oil prices.
What is it that will lead us to take more consideration of alternative fuel sources? High oil prices.
Who knows where we'd be now had oil prices been extremely high back in, say, 1994? Odds are we would have had more advances in alternative technologies.
High oil prices = high jump ticket prices
rehmwa 2
Quotedo the CAFE laws suddenly make my 1999 vehicle more fuel efficient? does it give me a specific exemption at the pump to pay .15 less than the guy with the 2006 prius?
you are right. and, if 'they' get their way, you'll likely even be penalized further for not buying that new car that you can't afford. Direct taxes to you, maybe a HIGHER (not less) pump price for certain cars, certainly, you won't get special HOV exemptions which will make you burn even more gas, etc. So if you are poor and can't buy the new car, those CAFE advocates will push to make your life even more of a hell.
But maybe you can start a hazardous waste company to deal with the periodic disposal of those batteries. Then you can earn enough to get a loan for those neato new car designs.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
I am trying to start an alternative fuel program where I live, it is actually not that difficult. Small producers of biofuels are cropping up all over the country, yes, it's home brew but it works. Don't get caught up in the mentality that only ADM and Exxon have the ability to make this stuff.Currently there is a way to convert just about every car on the road to an alternative fuel. For example in order to burn biodiesel(B 20 or B100)which is simply trans esterified cooking oil from a chemical reaction which separates out glycerine, in a diesel vehicle, some changes need to be made to the fuel system ie. the rubber parts changed to a metnanol resistant compound. These parts are becoming more available over the internet. Some diesels can be converted to run on pure vegetable oil by simply pre heating the oil.
It's here people,now, and gas cars can be converted to burn ethanol almost as easily. Of course there is a caviat, do we grow food or fuel? somethings gotta give. Unfortunately that leads to a discussion of population dynamics.
I say let gas go up to $10 a gallon - for now we don't need your stinkin oil!
It's here people,now, and gas cars can be converted to burn ethanol almost as easily. Of course there is a caviat, do we grow food or fuel? somethings gotta give. Unfortunately that leads to a discussion of population dynamics.
I say let gas go up to $10 a gallon - for now we don't need your stinkin oil!
Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415
D S #3.1415
You may find these sites of interest..
clicky 1
click_2
Could you answer me a question? Are diesel powered cars becomeing more common in ths States? I understood that they were less common, than say over here in Europe.
I drive a Landy and SVO is the way to go.....
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(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
clicky 1
click_2
Could you answer me a question? Are diesel powered cars becomeing more common in ths States? I understood that they were less common, than say over here in Europe.
I drive a Landy and SVO is the way to go.....
.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
MC208B 0
QuoteYeah... He is loving it....I mean when fucknuts like Pat Robertson the end all be all CHRISTIAN says someone should go assasinate him.. Perhaps Mr Chavez... MIGHT just be a little testy about their northern neighbors....who buy one hell of a lot of his oil.
Spoken like a true "moderate"
Amazon 7
QuoteSpoken like a true "moderate"
Spoken like a true veiled PA from an Ultra Right Hand boy
If car companies want to stay in business, they build what people want. And people want heated seats, LCD TV's etc; they're not that interested in fuel economy. (At least until recently.) So in a capitalist society, customers rather than suppliers determine what gets developed. It's not the 'evil car companies in collusion with the oil companies' or anything.
>who's going to absorb the high cost of fuel from now-->alternative
>fuel/vehicles becomes more widespread? you and i are, my friend.
We don't have to. CAFE laws effectively transfer that cost to car companies, by requiring them to sell more efficient cars at low prices. Aggressive CAFE increases would rapidly drive efficiency developments, and at the same time make efficient cars cheaper (resulting in less pain at the consumer level.)
Edited to add - it should go without saying that we will bear the burden for the near future, since it takes time for any change to percolate into new vehicle offerings, even with CAFE incentives. Which is why increasing them sooner rather than later is a good idea.
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