Skyrad 0
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MattM 0
QuoteMaking the presumption that the video link in the first post is, in fact, Meyssan's site...
Here's some debunks for you...
Eyewitness reports of the Pentagon strike
How about the fact that the black boxes were found at the Pentagon?
Or, the fact that the remains of the passengers were positively identified?
Your turn - I'll check back in tomorrow to see what you've got.
Why don't you give me a call and we can talk about it all... oh thats right, the government might be tapping my phone line now without a warrant... why? because of "terrorism". If the gov. stages another terrorist attack they will be able to do whatever the hell they want...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11298336/
Sarcasm aside, I could care less to go toe to toe with you. I don't feel like providing information on something that you will never change your mind on anyway.
Matt
champu 1
You're absolutely right, I don't work for a demolition crew, and I don't work for an NTSB aircraft accident investigation crew. But I've taken enough physics, design, applied mechanics, and science of material courses as part of my engineering degrees to know when I'm listening to someone compare apples and oranges.
There was simply no precedent for what would happen if a fully fueled jet airliner flying at or near full speed hit an occupied building of the size and specific design of the WTC. Showing me videos of the B-25 that hit the Empire State Building is useless because that plane weighed 1/6 what a 757 weighs, and was going between 1/3 and 1/2 the speed. Showing me video of buildings with traditional internal lattice structures burning and not collapsing is useless because that was completely not how the WTC was built.
And would someone explain to this guy you don't have to melt metal to weaken/severly deform it? Why does he keep showing me the periodic table and rattling off melting points?
There was simply no precedent for what would happen if a fully fueled jet airliner flying at or near full speed hit an occupied building of the size and specific design of the WTC. Showing me videos of the B-25 that hit the Empire State Building is useless because that plane weighed 1/6 what a 757 weighs, and was going between 1/3 and 1/2 the speed. Showing me video of buildings with traditional internal lattice structures burning and not collapsing is useless because that was completely not how the WTC was built.
And would someone explain to this guy you don't have to melt metal to weaken/severly deform it? Why does he keep showing me the periodic table and rattling off melting points?
MattM 0
QuoteYou're absolutely right, I don't work for a demolition crew, and I don't work for an NTSB aircraft accident investigation crew. But I've taken enough physics, design, applied mechanics, and science of material courses as part of my engineering degrees to know when I'm listening to someone compare apples and oranges.
There was simply no precedent for what would happen if a fully fueled jet airliner flying at or near full speed hit an occupied building of the size and specific design of the WTC. Showing me videos of the B-25 that hit the Empire State Building is useless because that plane weighed 1/6 what a 757 weighs, and was going between 1/3 and 1/2 the speed. Showing me video of buildings with traditional internal lattice structures burning and not collapsing is useless because that was completely not how the WTC was built.
I don't disagree with you a bit. All those things would seem to make a building come down to me, but so soon? Only after an hour? Seeing plumes of smoke repeatily shoot out the side of the towers several floors below and witness accounts of a chain of "explosions" sounds like a demolition to me.
I'm not a complete idiot, but certain things just don't add up to me.
Matt
MattM 0
QuoteI'd normaly agree with you but this video brought up some interesting points in the Pentagon crash that are not exactly explainable. Also video footage of what appear to be detonations in the WTC as they were collapsing but several floors below the level of collapse and continuing as the buildings collapse. Now I'm not saying they were rigged detonations but I have no idea what they were. As for the PA flight, now there, the're really is some weird issues.
I am with skyrad here, somethings just don't add up to me.
Matt
nanook 1
QuoteI don't disagree with you a bit. All those things would seem to make a building come down to me, but so soon? Only after an hour? Seeing plumes of smoke repeatily shoot out the side of the towers several floors below and witness accounts of a chain of "explosions" sounds like a demolition to me.
I'll try to use some real world experience to help here. It may not be the best, but I'll try.
From what I understand is that the central core of the WTC is made of a series of steel vertical beams The aircraft(s) were burning within the buildings for a while before the collapse. . . I've been on three ships in my ten years in the navy and I have experienced a couple of fires on them. Frigates, cruisers and destroyers utilize gas turbines as a main propulsion therefore requiring an abundance of F76. A fuel not much different from Jet A. There's also JP5 on board, another type of AVgas. I've experienced a few Main Space fires. These ships are made of a much thicker steel and aluminum than aircraft and I tell you it's an understatement when I say metal is a good conductor of heat. No Wood-Structure will ever compete. When you have a good space fire your "secondary boundaries"(spaces adjacent to the primary boundaries, which is on the outside of the fire now hot enought to warp and melt 1/4 inch steel) bulkhead's paint is peeling off and starting to get black. Your insulation may already be on fire out here and the fire is two spaces away. All this while applying a steady stream of water on the bulkheads to keep it cool. You cant be here too long because of the resulting steam is hotter than a pressure cooker.
Back to the towers. . .All these vertical beams are being heated up by a superhot fire of aluminum and aviation gas. In a few minutes, even the foot of the beams below the basement are hot enough to evaporate water. The beams lose their structural ability and they start to buckle. The resulting collapse and weight of the building causes a lot of compressed air that the walls can't hold back. There's going to be explosions.
_____________________________
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
Skyrad 0
QuoteYou're absolutely right, I don't work for a demolition crew, and I don't work for an NTSB aircraft accident investigation crew. But I've taken enough physics, design, applied mechanics, and science of material courses as part of my engineering degrees to know when I'm listening to someone compare apples and oranges.
There was simply no precedent for what would happen if a fully fueled jet airliner flying at or near full speed hit an occupied building of the size and specific design of the WTC. Showing me videos of the B-25 that hit the Empire State Building is useless because that plane weighed 1/6 what a 757 weighs, and was going between 1/3 and 1/2 the speed. Showing me video of buildings with traditional internal lattice structures burning and not collapsing is useless because that was completely not how the WTC was built.
And would someone explain to this guy you don't have to melt metal to weaken/severly deform it? Why does he keep showing me the periodic table and rattling off melting points?
I agree
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
mnealtx 0
QuoteI don't feel like providing information on something that you will never change your mind on anyway.
By all means, provide away... I *am* convincable, but you're going to have to prove the point to me.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
Oh hell, so....many...clikies.....I just blew an hour and a half of what would normally be productive work time to keep up with all the argumants and clickable links.
Grendel Khan-The Official DZ.Com Newbie Forum Nuisance
"They sicken of the calm, that know the storm."
Grendel Khan-The Official DZ.Com Newbie Forum Nuisance
"They sicken of the calm, that know the storm."
rhino 0
Quotewhat appear to be detonations
They were detonations of some sort.. In higher res videos you can actually see a charge going off about 10 floors below the collapse all the way down. Not just a puff of smoke but flame.
rhino 0
QuoteIf the gov. stages another terrorist attack they will be able to do whatever the hell they want...
The bible code people say March is the month for this "event". Bushes polls are dropping.. Major trouble in the White House. What better way to get the numbers back up and drum up more support to bomb Iran and Seria.. When we get hit hard this year and I do mean "WHEN" Bush will have a green light to do his dirty work.
I hope nothing does happen but I think it's pretty much on our doorstep.
Has anyone looked up "American Heroshima?"... Related to the suitcase nukes the Russians "lost"... Kind of gives credibility to the Feds monitoring Muslim sites in the US for radioactive material..
I say monitor away..
Rhino
the bible code people have predicted a LOT of things. When they don't come to pass, they just write a sequel.
Speed Racer
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nanook 1
QuoteThey were detonations of some sort.. In higher res videos you can actually see a charge going off about 10 floors below the collapse all the way down. Not just a puff of smoke but flame
for a fire, you need three things: oxygen, heat, and some sort of fuel. A collapsing building I would imagine has enough power to compress the air enough to provide the heat and office furniture, or more likely impurities in the air like dust to provide the fuel. So you got one huge Diesel cylinder. Probably a bit extreme.
Or, individual parts of the 150+ tons of burning plane that weight tens of tons, like landing gear, large sections of burning fuselage and wing fall through several floors because builders seldom calculate the fact that some people like the rare 7 ton executive desk. It is burning several floor below and when the collapse gives positive air pressure, feeding the fire more, it also pushes the flames out the shattered windows. Or the vibration of the collapsing causes the windows to break, and the air rushes in to feed a starving fire and flame rushes out greedily to the open air(called backdraft by moviegoers).
I'm no engineer. all this is pure speculation but It seems more plausable to me. Ironically, it mirrors the same style of specuation (armchair engineering) that fuels conspiracy theory authors.
_____________________________
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
Yo!
But you're a gravity tester, aren't you?
It's the beauty and elegancy of physics that allows one to debunk the official 9/11 BS using just one word we all know too well:
F R E E F A L L
Even without Pentagon and all other evidence of a well-executed spectacle that opened the doors to the War, the fact that on 9/11 three skyscrapers freefell through themselves -- through steel and concrete -- without any resistance is all a thinking individual needs to understand what really happened.
WTC 1 & 2 fell in 10s (freefall in vacuum would take 9.2s), WTC 7 fell in 6.6s (6s in vacuum).
If they show on TV that terrorists threw somebody out of a plane from 13500ft and you see that the body, perfectly flat and stable, reached the ground in 29 seconds, would you believe it? 29s is freefall time in vacuum, we know that in air it would take more than a minute.
Gravity-driven self-destruction of WTC in 10s is physically impossible.
It'll take perhaps a world-famous physicist (like Steven Hawking) to explain this in lazyman terms to the world for it to be believed (like Richard Feynman did with a glass of icy water and a piece of rubber to demonstrate why Challenger exploded). Until then, they call physics a conspiracy theory.
Yuri
QuoteI'm no engineer.
But you're a gravity tester, aren't you?
It's the beauty and elegancy of physics that allows one to debunk the official 9/11 BS using just one word we all know too well:
F R E E F A L L
Even without Pentagon and all other evidence of a well-executed spectacle that opened the doors to the War, the fact that on 9/11 three skyscrapers freefell through themselves -- through steel and concrete -- without any resistance is all a thinking individual needs to understand what really happened.
WTC 1 & 2 fell in 10s (freefall in vacuum would take 9.2s), WTC 7 fell in 6.6s (6s in vacuum).
If they show on TV that terrorists threw somebody out of a plane from 13500ft and you see that the body, perfectly flat and stable, reached the ground in 29 seconds, would you believe it? 29s is freefall time in vacuum, we know that in air it would take more than a minute.
Gravity-driven self-destruction of WTC in 10s is physically impossible.
It'll take perhaps a world-famous physicist (like Steven Hawking) to explain this in lazyman terms to the world for it to be believed (like Richard Feynman did with a glass of icy water and a piece of rubber to demonstrate why Challenger exploded). Until then, they call physics a conspiracy theory.
Yuri
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Windows only: WS Studio
nanook 1
How is explosives tactically placed going to make the wtc fall any faster than a natural core collapse?
If the Gov't uses explosives to bring down a huge building like that, I would also think that we would use some sort of det cord type of cutters instead of some obvious huge sticks of dynamite demo crews use that cannot be hidden without some heavy revitalization in key areas. It would draw too much attention. Cutters don't produce that much blast but the heat can cut through very thick steel. It definitely wouldn't produce huge clouds of debris exiting windows.
But all in all, the biggest debunking comes from the huge amount of work and personnel required to to do such a task. You cannot cover up anything that big. It's against human nature. It is impossible to find that many people willing to possibly kill 50,000 people. When it comes to doing classified operations procedures or instructions, Accidental dissimination of classified information is always weighed. also, Something like this probably would require a Top-Secret clearance. this would require a Huge need to know through out various talents and agencies. Not many people have this clearance. And this clearance is not a guarantee that people won't talk.
Where are the whistle blowers? Only people yawling are the conspiracy theorists. Why are conspiracy theorist finding the "Truth" not disappearing; or not afraid to expose the truth?
Also, this happened before the huge restructuring of the Homeland Security thingie. Various Gov't organizations working together in this magnitude. . .Well its the Gov't. That's a hell of a lot of faith in as system for the average conspiracy theorist.
If the Gov't uses explosives to bring down a huge building like that, I would also think that we would use some sort of det cord type of cutters instead of some obvious huge sticks of dynamite demo crews use that cannot be hidden without some heavy revitalization in key areas. It would draw too much attention. Cutters don't produce that much blast but the heat can cut through very thick steel. It definitely wouldn't produce huge clouds of debris exiting windows.
But all in all, the biggest debunking comes from the huge amount of work and personnel required to to do such a task. You cannot cover up anything that big. It's against human nature. It is impossible to find that many people willing to possibly kill 50,000 people. When it comes to doing classified operations procedures or instructions, Accidental dissimination of classified information is always weighed. also, Something like this probably would require a Top-Secret clearance. this would require a Huge need to know through out various talents and agencies. Not many people have this clearance. And this clearance is not a guarantee that people won't talk.
Where are the whistle blowers? Only people yawling are the conspiracy theorists. Why are conspiracy theorist finding the "Truth" not disappearing; or not afraid to expose the truth?
Also, this happened before the huge restructuring of the Homeland Security thingie. Various Gov't organizations working together in this magnitude. . .Well its the Gov't. That's a hell of a lot of faith in as system for the average conspiracy theorist.
_____________________________
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
nanook 1
QuoteGravity-driven self-destruction of WTC in 10s is physically impossible.
the buildings weren't at any freefall speed. Maybe it's a trick of the camera angle that gave the illusion. debris falling straight down was falling faster than the collapsing buildings. Also, as far as videos are concerned, you can see only some of the collapse. The rest is covered up by dust cloud. for all we know, the buildings collased 1/3 to 1/2 way in the first few seconds, then took about an hour to collaspe all the way. The smoke was there for a long time.
_____________________________
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
QuoteThat's a hell of a lot of faith in as system for the average conspiracy theorist
The average conspiracy theorist has a TREMENDOUS amount of faith in the powers of government/corporations. The mentality is that there are vast, diabolical organizations that have everything under precise control.
so if something bad happens in the world, it was caused by a secret government or corporate conspiracy. in the cosmology of the conspiracy theorist, there is no room for mere incompetence on the part of the government. Everything happens by design, and everything is under control, albeit by evil inhumane secret organizations.
The idea that our vast & powerful government is NOT in control is unthinkable. (ie, that foreign terrorists launched this attack & our domestic security had too many holes in it to stop it.)
The purpose of most conspiracy theories is to validate a political or psychological mindset.
Speed Racer
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I'm a physics expert, not a demolition expert. Also, I can attest that the gravity and air resistance worked so far on 500 jumps: not a single time I touched the ground in 29s after jumping from 13.5K. That the task of demolishing a 1400ft building seems impossible to you, doesn't make the laws of physics stop working.
Read more, think more, you'll get it...
Here's for starters:
View of a Military Expert
A paper by Steven Jones, Professor of Physics
Why the Official Account Cannot Be True
Muslims Suspend Laws of Physics!
Physics 911
911 Research
Also, I can attest that the gravity and air resistance worked so far on 500 jumps: not a single time I touched the ground in 29s after jumping from 13.5K. That the task of demolishing a 1400ft building seems impossible to you, doesn't make the laws of physics stop working. Read more, think more, you'll get it...
Here's for starters:
View of a Military Expert
A paper by Steven Jones, Professor of Physics
Why the Official Account Cannot Be True
Muslims Suspend Laws of Physics!
Physics 911
911 Research
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio
nanook 1
QuoteThe average conspiracy theorist has a TREMENDOUS amount of faith in the powers of government/corporations
Man, I'm just stumbling all over myself, aint I
Man, It sure warms my heart someone believes in me
_____________________________
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
nanook 1
QuoteThat the task of demolishing a 1400ft building seems impossible to you, doesn't make the laws of physics stop working.
[covers ears]LAAA LAAA LLAAA LAAAA [/covers ears]
Just kidding
I believe in a 1400 foot building coming down with explosives. and Dammit, my petition to repeal that Physics law is still being passed around
Those links are what I have been looking at for a while. They have all been debunked here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories
I can't do more to convince. It's all belief from here on out. Peace. . .
_____________________________
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
QuoteI'm a physics expert, not a demolition expert.
you've failed to show them not working. Or how explosives would change the equation any.
So, assume you're right. What was the point of the airplanes? And were they empty of passengers and muslim terrorists, or not.
avenfoto 0
QuoteSo, assume you're right. What was the point of the airplanes? And were they empty of passengers and muslim terrorists, or not.
point of airplanes? shock and awe... 911 was a catalyst
were they empty? i hope so....
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
read/listen up to chomskys "clash of civilizations" .. there always has to be an "enemy" ... previously it was the russians... now its islam...
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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