9/11 hijackers - brave or not?

[ViperPilot 0]

First of all, I was referring to personally commiting suicide in order to kill thousands of innocent people. Secondly, I haven't killed hundreds of thousands and I don't know anyone who has. It's sure nice to see the news get the story wrong 100% of the time...but alas, we're all baby killers, aren't we?

[billvon 2,425]

>but alas, we're all baby killers, aren't we?

I figured the next post would be a defensive one. Chill out; it's not all about you.

"But . . . but. . . 'Brave' means 'good' - so anyone who says a terrorist is brave is, well, SUPPORTING THE TERRORISTS! Next thing you know, people will be saying that some terrorists think they are doing the right thing. I suppose they're OK with terrorists killing their children, then!"

"Brave" means able to face danger or risk without showing fear. If you're a US Marine who walks into certain death to save a comrade, you're brave. (Heck, you'll probably get a highway or an elementary school named after you.) If you're a terrorist who flies a plane into a building, you're also brave, by the definition of the word. Doesn't mean you're good. You can be an evil villain and be brave; you can also be an evil villain and be a coward. They are orthogonal definitions.

[ViperPilot 0]

True enough. Guess it's just in our lexicon to mix brave and good as somewhat synonymous. Personally I see suicide as a cowardly act and thus, not brave. Running a plane into a building is 100% suicide. Running into a barrage of gunfire to pull a buddy out may be 95% suicide, but it's still different. Pulling your buddy out has a very high chance of you getting hurt or killed, but running a plane into a building is 100% death (at least in the 9/11 case). So therefore, it's incorrect to say you commited suicide if you ran to get a buddy and died. It is correct to say the hijackers commited suicide since they 100% positively knew they were going to kill themselves.

[highfly 0]

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"Brave" means able to face danger or risk without showing fear.

Doesn't mean you're good. You can be an evil villain and be brave; you can also be an evil villain and be a coward. They are orthogonal definitions.

Thats it Bill. Summed it all up for me. I had to check out what orthogonal meant. Never heard it before

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orthogonal It means at right angles. It comes from the Greek ortho, meaning right, and gonia, meaning angle.

www.myspace.com/durtymac

[jkm2500 0]

bottom line still remains that I believe that since they are/were not in a sane state of mind(crazy) that bravery doesn't qualify. And since the thread is about what I think, I think that they are not in the least bit brave. crazy at the least, and a lot stupid.

Thanks for pointing out my inability to grasp the english language, but it still boils down to semantics.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=semantics
semantics: The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form

The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Performing an act of mass murder on unarmed citizens without any warning or pre-declaration of 'war' is not brave, IMO.
The target was not a 'recognised enemy' by any civilised definition, the target was not in a 'state of war' by my rules.

This situation does not equate to bombing civilian populations in a time of war and any such comparison to Nagasaki, Dresden, Coventry etc is asinine.

It was a cowardly act.

Or put it this way, all over Europe there are war graves, both allied and axis fallen are treated with due respect.

Does anyone here consider that a memorial to the suicide bombers in say New York would be fitting?

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[crozby 0]

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I see suicide as a cowardly act and thus, not brave. ... So therefore, it's incorrect to say you commited suicide if you ran to get a buddy and died. It is correct to say the hijackers commited suicide since they 100% positively knew they were going to kill themselves.

And what about the guy who throws himself on the grenade to save his buddies? Surely a cowardly act by your definition.

[crozby 0]

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Performing an act of mass murder on unarmed citizens without any warning or pre-declaration of 'war' is not brave, IMO.
The target was not a 'recognised enemy' by any civilised definition, the target was not in a 'state of war' by my rules.

I think you're misinterpreting the word brave. Like Bill says, it doesn't equate to honorable or decent.

I think that in order to carry out 9/11 some of the terrorists at least had to accept that they were going to die as a result of it.

If coming to terms with thier own demise was a difficult process for them then, by the definition of the word, they were brave. If, however, their faith made it an easy decision, then in my view they were not brave.

[mnealtx 0]

In reading the thread, I can see both sides of the argument.

In the suicide bombers eyes, what they are doing is a brave act, striking a blow for their religion.

The recipients of said bomber's action, of course, see it in a different light.

I think where some of the confusion comes in is the difference between moral courage and physical courage. At least, that's how I see it.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[nacmacfeegle 0]

We are all going to die, I have come to terms with the fact that I'm going to die, hell, I've even come close to it a couple of times. I'm not 'brave' by my definition. I don't consider myself cowardly either, I'm just trying to find my way through this life, with an element of what I call decency.

I probably am mistaking decent, honourable, valiant, noble even, with brave, in this context, but to me, bravery without nobilty is, well its just plain stupidity or ignorance.
If these guys were doing this to gain access to some delightful oasis populated by countless virgins, then its even worse, its good old fashioned selfishness.

If they thought they were furthering the cause of Islam my murdering fellow muslims,, they were surely misled and we are back to ignorance.

Brave might apply to the firefighters who gave it up selflessly, brave might apply to those who have to pick up the pieces of their shattered lives and try to return to some form of normality. Brave might even apply to those who do not actually hold Islam responsible for all this, and spend their efforts seeking out he real cause of this attrocity.

Brave does not apply to people who terrorise others, for whatever reason.

Not in my book anyway.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Newbie 0]

I was in a discussion the other day, and we were talking about skydiving. A mate of mine suggested that skydivers were brave people, i initially said they were stupid... but then i thought "why were they stupid" and i couldn't come up with a reason

my mates argument was that to be prepaird to die for what you believe in, can't be an act of stupidity, but an act of bravery.

He made no comment on whether it was right or wrong, idiotic or not.. but solely on stupidity or bravery

anybody else think they are stupid ?

_____________

Think about it when speaking to a whuffo friend who doesn't "get it". Same principle applies.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Scoop 0]

I think someone that puts total faith in something they believe in - to the extent that they are preapared to die for it is brave.

Might not like the circumstances, but they are brave IMO

But then there is a fine line between brave & fanatical

[nacmacfeegle 0]

I'm not prepared to die for skydiving. If I thought I was going to die, I wouldn't do it.

I recognise there is a risk that I may die jumping, but to me, the risk falls within my own personal risk acceptance criteria.

Risk is a compound of hazard (in this case high velocity impact with an onother object) or consequence, and the likelihood of that hazard realising itself, or the frequency of the 'event'.

Skydiving is inherently risky, but perception of the risk is dominated by the consequence, not the frequency. The frequency of death in skydiving is actually quite low. It can be further managed by following certain guidance, eg packing carefully, keeping your gear in good shape, but most of all, avoiding operator error, eg being aware of your own skill limitations.

Are we brave? no, stupid?, hell no (stupid not to!), selfish?...probably.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[artistcalledian 0]

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Personally I see suicide as a cowardly act and thus, not brave

not in all cases, how about a terminally ill person who commits suicide?

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[SkyDekker 1,138]

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This situation does not equate to bombing civilian populations in a time of war and any such comparison to Nagasaki, Dresden, Coventry etc is asinine.

There is no official declaration of war in the current conflict in both Iraq and Afghanistan. So there can be no acts of bravery?

I know there was a bit of an informal declaration of war against terrorism.....kind of similar to the informal declaration of war against the US and the western world from some Muslim extremists....

[livendive 8]

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since only a handful of the 19 knew they were going to die as part of the plan, can't give them the brave tag for that aspect. ... Up till then, the notion was always the hijackers intended to land the plane somewhere nasty, but intact. Minimized resistance.

Do we know this? Or do we just suspect it?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[outrager 6]

Yo !

Of course they are brave, by the very definition of the word.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[rehmwa 2]

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>A man who walks into certain death to do what he believes is right is brave. He may also be a lunatic. Or a villian. Those terms are NOT antonyms.

YES, exactly. People get bent out of shape because they attach a positive spin on the term 'brave'. Someone can be brave in committing a dispicable act. I can call someone brave and think they are terrible people too. It does not have to imply a level of charactor. It depends really on what each person attaches to the word.

Though, since 'brave' can be inferred as part of a set of positive character traits, I'd rather avoid the term with those who do dispicable acts. Just because the (incorrect) connotations associated with the word just cause more trouble than it's worth.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Scoop 0]

brave ( P ) Pronunciation Key (brv)
adj. brav·er, brav·est
Possessing or displaying courage; valiant.
Making a fine display; impressive or showy: “a coat of brave red lipstick on a mouth so wrinkled that it didn't even have a clear outline” (Anne Tyler).
Excellent; great: “The Romans were like brothers/In the brave days of old” (Thomas Macaulay).

n.
A Native American warrior.
A courageous person.
Archaic. A bully.
Looks like they are brave then

[EricTheRed 0]

Definitly semantics:

Take a look at any street gang and you will find plenty of 'brave' punks, up to no good.

brave does not equal good.
That meme is however part of the american mythos though since so many of our national heros are said to have been "brave"

illegible usually

[billvon 2,425]

>Performing an act of mass murder on unarmed citizens without any
>warning or pre-declaration of 'war' is not brave, IMO.
>The target was not a 'recognised enemy' by any civilised definition, the
>target was not in a 'state of war' by my rules.

Again, you're confusing moral with brave.

A man who runs into a police station with a drawn gun, trying to break his accomplice out of jail, is brave. He may also be an idiot, and an evil criminal, and an immoral villain, and no one's ever going to build a memorial to him. But he is brave by definition.

>Or put it this way, all over Europe there are war graves, both allied
>and axis fallen are treated with due respect.

Again, apples and oranges. A US soldier could drop his weapon and run screaming in fear, then be shot in the back by the enemy, and we'd still treat his grave with respect. Worthy of respect does NOT equal brave.

[kallend 1,643]

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>Performing an act of mass murder on unarmed citizens without any
>warning or pre-declaration of 'war' is not brave, IMO.
>The target was not a 'recognised enemy' by any civilised definition, the
>target was not in a 'state of war' by my rules.

Again, you're confusing moral with brave.

A man who runs into a police station with a drawn gun, trying to break his accomplice out of jail, is brave. He may also be an idiot, ....
.

.

Surely there's a point at which being so stupid that you don't appreciate the possible consequences of your actions cancels out any element of bravery.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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Surely there's a point at which being so stupid that you don't appreciate the possible consequences of your actions cancels out any element of bravery.

no,

Would you say a 5 year old that is scared of heights that climbs that 15 foot rock wall is brave? Or just belittle them because it's not 'really' that scary - they are just ignorant or immature.

What about the same thing for someone mentally retarded? Or are they jsut too stupid not to recognize their fear is irrational?

I'd hesitate to discount people's intents and actions and meaningfulness to life just because they have a lower IQ than some others.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

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since only a handful of the 19 knew they were going to die as part of the plan, can't give them the brave tag for that aspect. ... Up till then, the notion was always the hijackers intended to land the plane somewhere nasty, but intact. Minimized resistance.

Do we know this? Or do we just suspect it?

It's based on remarks by bin laden himself released afterwards.

[Mike111 0]

I would say they are more deranged and radicalised to fully realise the truth and horror they will put their bodies through.

Not radicalised in the sense they are in fairly land , but from a Western point of view, you would have to be pretty fucked up to do that, and "mad" so they do ont understand the concept of bravery.