10 million Mexicans

[Frenchy68 0]

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Nope, you are wrong. TIN stands for Tax Identification Number. They will allow you to apply for one, has to be notarized, if you don't have a SSN, then the IRS will allow you to file to get a TIN number.

Maybe it implies to you, but when an immigrant is here on illegal status, they get pretty knowledgeable on what they can do, or can't do, or ways to get into main stream...... or stream the medium.

Interesting. What kind of documentation does one need in order to obtain a TIN at the individual level?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[juanesky 0]

is actually called ITIN. Here

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[tcnelson 1]

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So many of you believe this, but I haven't seen any real proof. Just WAGs about how many are in prison and how much money they're sending home.

i googled "money sent home from illegal immigrants" and got a whole bunch of stuff. alot of the websites were biased and i didn't want to wade through an ocean of stuff so, it's a start for you.

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they do not use as many services - ER might be the only one and then only if they're really hurting.

how about the education system, welfare of all kinds (local/state/federal). illegal immigrants are a huge drain on the public financial system. if nothing else, you should be able to agree that they are taking more than they are paying in and that is the ultimate problem.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[Frenchy68 0]

Thanks. Good info in there.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[waltappel 1]

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That's a pretty bigotted statement. Poor sections of town are the result of poverty not national origin or ethnicity.

I disagree. I can show you at least one trailer park and probably more, well within the Houston city limits where there are chickens freely roaming around. Many illegals DO bring their third-world lifestyles here.

I still don't see how trashy neighborhoods are a major issue when compared to the economic and social problems stemming from illegal immigration, but I don't think his claim is bigoted--it's an ugly reality.

Another ugly reality is that many of the illegals have a habit of spending their pay on binge drinking and end up getting into violent confrontations. It may be a stereotype, but stereotypes are not necessarily devoid of truth. On any given Monday morning here in Houston, the morning TV news has details of the body count at the local cantinas for the weekend.

Walt

[masterrig 1]

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That's a pretty bigotted statement. Poor sections of town are the result of poverty not national origin or ethnicity.

I disagree. I can show you at least one trailer park and probably more, well within the Houston city limits where there are chickens freely roaming around. Many illegals DO bring their third-world lifestyles here.

I still don't see how trashy neighborhoods are a major issue when compared to the economic and social problems stemming from illegal immigration, but I don't think his claim is bigoted--it's an ugly reality.

Another ugly reality is that many of the illegals have a habit of spending their pay on binge drinking and end up getting into violent confrontations. It may be a stereotype, but stereotypes are not necessarily devoid of truth. On any given Monday morning here in Houston, the morning TV news has details of the body count at the local cantinas for the weekend.

Walt

___________________________________

Sad but, in many cases... true. It's a lot like that here in West Texas... I live in the city limits. A guy, 2-blocks away, raises fighting roosters. (I don't need an alarm clock!) We call the police... the roosters go bye-bye. Couple days later... you guessed it! The roosters are back. Grrrrrr!


Chuck

[waltappel 1]

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*** "This coming from BASE jumper. Pretty good."



Are all BASE jumps illegal?

I was pointing out the irony of a BASE jumper getting on the law & order bandwagon.

If you were to say all of your jumps were legal, I'd gladly retract the statement. Of course, somehow I don't think I'll have to do that.

As a retired BASE jumper, I'd like to respond.

To my knowledge there are no local governments that routinely refuse to enforce trespassing laws when BASE jumpers break them.

When a BASE jumper gets caught and taken to jail, there aren't loads of bleeding-heart liberals screaming injustice. A BASE jumper calling for enforcement of existing immigration laws is not being a hypocrite. It's more a case of asking for equal treatment for others who break the law.

Walt

[TomAiello 25]

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*** "This coming from BASE jumper. Pretty good."

Are BASE jumpers here illegally?

Are all BASE jumps illegal?

The majority of base jumps done in the US are.

Have you got some numbers to substantiate that claim?

I'm just going to hazard a guess that I've got a little better background than you on this one, and I'd say you're going to have to work pretty hard to prove that.

The fact is that even amongst the (many) jumpers who live in places where it is nearly impossible to make legal jumps, a large percentage of their jumps are made while travelling to legal sites (within the US). This is mostly because they are "hungry" for jumps, being able to only make a couple a day (at most) at home, and when they travel to a legal site or boogie, they cut loose and make many, many more jumps per time.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[loflyer 0]

I couldn't agree with you more! I lived in a small rural town (where all the illegals seem to migrate to). About 5 years ago, our community was "OVERRUN" with illegal immigrants due to farming. Within 5 years, our beautiful small rural town has turned into a "Welfare" type town. I worked in the Emergency Room at the only Hospital in this town... Well needless to say, they quickly figured out that they could not be "Refused" treatment, so they came to the ER for everything from a cold to having babies, and never paid 0.01 cent. The totally learned how to work the system and 90% of them would give a different name everytime they would come in & what was really funny is that they "ALL" seemed to live in the same house.. Well to make a long story short, the only hospital in this small town closed down due to financial reasons, because of "Self Pay" patients (Illegals) who don't have SS#'s, No way of holding them responsible for their bills, etc! I grew up in this town, & I am so pissed that the illegals are destroying what use to be one of the best places to live!

[masterrig 1]

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I couldn't agree with you more! I lived in a small rural town (where all the illegals seem to migrate to). About 5 years ago, our community was "OVERRUN" with illegal immigrants due to farming. Within 5 years, our beautiful small rural town has turned into a "Welfare" type town. I worked in the Emergency Room at the only Hospital in this town... Well needless to say, they quickly figured out that they could not be "Refused" treatment, so they came to the ER for everything from a cold to having babies, and never paid 0.01 cent. The totally learned how to work the system and 90% of them would give a different name everytime they would come in & what was really funny is that they "ALL" seemed to live in the same house.. Well to make a long story short, the only hospital in this small town closed down due to financial reasons, because of "Self Pay" patients (Illegals) who don't have SS#'s, No way of holding them responsible for their bills, etc! I grew up in this town, & I am so pissed that the illegals are destroying what use to be one of the best places to live!

___________________________________

We see a lot of that here. Every 9-months, 15-minutes! In-between those events are the body repairs from the fights and drive-by's! The gunshot wounds from the drug deals gone bad.


Chuck

[Casurf1978 0]

The numbers are out there. All you have to do is look for them. I'll use Cali's economy since its pretty huge. Charles Cozic wrote Illegal immigration: Opposing Viewpoints in the late 1990s when prop 187 was on our ballots. His figures surprised me. Illegals contribute 7% of our annual GDP back then it was 900 billion. Former Gov Pete Wilson left this little figure out when he said illegals were costing us 7 billion in health and services.

Here's an intresting study by the CATO institute regarding immigration. http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-imsum.html

Here's a nice little fact for those that say illegals use more than provide.

" Illegal aliens contribute about as much to the public
coffers in taxes as they receive in benefits. New data suggest that the undocumented pay about 46 percent as much in taxes as do natives, but use about 45 percent as much in services."

Bottom line is our economy needs illegal labor. Illegals get paid 15-20% less than natives for unskilled labor. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to see how this impacts manufacturing/service costs. There is a demand for it and it is being filled. If there was little or no thurst for cheap unskilled labor then illegal immigration wouldnt be such a huge problem.

[masterrig 1]

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The numbers are out there. All you have to do is look for them. I'll use Cali's economy since its pretty huge. Charles Cozic wrote Illegal immigration: Opposing Viewpoints in the late 1990s when prop 187 was on our ballots. His figures surprised me. Illegals contribute 7% of our annual GDP back then it was 900 billion. Former Gov Pete Wilson left this little figure out when he said illegals were costing us 7 billion in health and services.
_________________________________

{I recently read in the newspaper, where wages are going down for assembly line jobs yet the cost of products are going up. Autos, referigerators, etc. 'Big ticket' items! Those 'numbers crunchers' can do a lot with stats. Who do you believe? Big business, wants the cheap labor, of course. Just means more in their pockets. They don't live where their employees live, either. So, they don't see what the 'little guy' sees.}


Chuck

Here's an intresting study by the CATO institute regarding immigration. http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-imsum.html

Here's a nice little fact for those that say illegals use more than provide.

" Illegal aliens contribute about as much to the public
coffers in taxes as they receive in benefits. New data suggest that the undocumented pay about 46 percent as much in taxes as do natives, but use about 45 percent as much in services."

Bottom line is our economy needs illegal labor. Illegals get paid 15-20% less than natives for unskilled labor. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to see how this impacts manufacturing/service costs. There is a demand for it and it is being filled. If there was little or no thurst for cheap unskilled labor then illegal immigration wouldnt be such a huge problem.

[kelpdiver 2]

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if nothing else, you should be able to agree that they are taking more than they are paying in and that is the ultimate problem.

Why would I agree to that? You've provided nothing in proof, I got Republican governors supporting the status quo. I tend to think they are looking at the dollars, esp in recessionary times.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Have you got some numbers to substantiate that claim?

I'm just going to hazard a guess that I've got a little better background than you on this one, and I'd say you're going to have to work pretty hard to prove that.

Well yeah, given there are no numbers.

Are there any legal spots in California? I getting to know an increasing number that do at least some BASE, and I know they getting out often enough.

You may be right that they get a bunch of jumps in when they don't have to worry about access and detection. My buddy is new to base and has done most of his in Idaho in two trips. OTOH, Bridge Day is good for 1 or 2 jumps per person, right?

Will you conceed that the majority of BASE jumpers have jumped at unsactioned sites?

Like I implied, I don't think it's a real crime, but it is for the most part illegal.

[TomAiello 25]

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Are there any legal spots in California?

Yes. I can think of at least one that sees a lot of traffic.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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OTOH, Bridge Day is good for 1 or 2 jumps per person, right?

Mostly, Bridge Day is good for the party. It's really not about the jumping.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[tcnelson 1]

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if nothing else, you should be able to agree that they are taking more than they are paying in and that is the ultimate problem.

Why would I agree to that? You've provided nothing in proof, I got Republican governors supporting the status quo. I tend to think they are looking at the dollars, esp in recessionary times.

they are looking at votes from the latin community kelp.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[kelpdiver 2]

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they are looking at votes from the latin community kelp.

methinks its the dollars from agricultural interests.

So someone has produced a set of numbers suggesting quite the opposite - paying 46%, taking 45%. Still your turn.

[tcnelson 1]

oh goody!! it's my turn!!

i pass.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[kelpdiver 2]

no surprise, there.

[storm1977 0]

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The numbers are out there. All you have to do is look for them. I'll use Cali's economy since its pretty huge. Charles Cozic wrote Illegal immigration: Opposing Viewpoints in the late 1990s when prop 187 was on our ballots. His figures surprised me. Illegals contribute 7% of our annual GDP back then it was 900 billion. Former Gov Pete Wilson left this little figure out when he said illegals were costing us 7 billion in health and services.

Here's an intresting study by the CATO institute regarding immigration. http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-imsum.html

Here's a nice little fact for those that say illegals use more than provide.

" Illegal aliens contribute about as much to the public
coffers in taxes as they receive in benefits. New data suggest that the undocumented pay about 46 percent as much in taxes as do natives, but use about 45 percent as much in services."

Bottom line is our economy needs illegal labor. Illegals get paid 15-20% less than natives for unskilled labor. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to see how this impacts manufacturing/service costs. There is a demand for it and it is being filled. If there was little or no thurst for cheap unskilled labor then illegal immigration wouldnt be such a huge problem.

So what do these people bring to the economy?
33% of people in prison in the USA are illegal.
The Center for Immigration Studies estimates that the average Mexican illegal alien costs U.S. taxpayers a whopping $55,000 each.
So, does the average Illegal make over 55,000?
No, that is what he cost you.

So, let's do some simple math....
(10mil illegals x $55,000)/ 300mill US citizens = ~ 1,824 dollars per year.

So, in some sense the average person pays 152 dollars every month to support illegals.

And no, the economy does NOT need the illegal workers. Look at the research studies done by universities.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[rhino 0]

Mexicans are as American as we are.. South American

[tigra 0]

Learn a little geography! Mexico is a part of North America. They ARE NorthAmericans, just like the Canadians are.

[jenfly00 0]

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No-one would come here illegally if there wasn't an employer willing (wanting) to give them jobs.

Policing the border will never work, it's too long and difficult. Sanctioning employers who employ illegals is the way to go.

Do you like cheap lettuce and avocados, grapes and peaches? If so, then don't complain, you are part of the problem.

This is a common misconception!!!!
Policing the border can work!!!

China has been doing a pretty damn good job stopping N. Koreans coming across their border havent' they!!!!

China has 300,00 troops along with about 250,000 members of the Chinese People's Armed Police Force to patrol the 850 mile border shared with N. Korea. Despite this massive use of military personnel, it is estimated that tens of thousands of N. Koreans have crossed the border into China.

jen

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[kallend 1,651]

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I do not deny that. But I gather that about 80% of the money they make remains in the US. 20% is huge, but still a minor amount compared to the total spent locally.

In my experience (living in South Texas), you could reverse your numbers and be a LOT closer...

The FACT is, if the US really wanted to shut down illegal immigration it could, by spending a small fraction of the defense budget on border controls, by imposing sanctions that hurt (like BIG fines and jail terms) on employers of illegals, etc. The US does not do these things - why not?

As always, the way to find out why something does or does not happen in politics is to follow the money. Who benefits financially from illegals, and can influence the political process? IMO it's the employers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.