10 million Mexicans

[tcnelson 1]

if illegal immigration is to be stopped, the benefits from entering the country illegally must be stopped. an illegal alien should get no health care, no education, no anything that has public funding attached to it.

some think this is inhumane; i think it's necessary to solve the problem whether it's inhumane or not.

as long as it is advantageous for people to enter the country illegally, they will continue to do so.

you died crossing the desert on your way to america? tough tities, we all make choices.

you're in america illegally and you cut your arm off in a tragic construction accident? tough tities, you took the risk.

you went through the system of legal immigration and are planning to be constructive member of american society? welcome aboard, you are now allowed to receive public services and you can now bitch about taxes and such along with the rest of us.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[Casurf1978 0]

It's not only the lefties fault. Both sides ignore this issue because of money. Some business and industry prosper from cheap labor and pass it on to the consumer. The SF chronicle did a report and found all types of industry use illegal labor, from hospitality to agriculture. The latter being the one which employed the most. Over 50% of the workers are illegal and paid meager wages. Like someone said you want cheap fruits and vegies stop bitching about illegals.

Quote

all these illegals moved in seasonal construction work, landscaping, and hospitality work was done by college kids out of school for the summer.

Do you actually think a college student is going to clean rooms or mow a lawn during the summer. Hell no. Most are looking for internships in their fields. Which looks better on a resume: mowed lawns for the summer or interned at Boeing.

Yes illegal immigration is a problem, but offer better solutions than militarize the border or hire college kids.

[Treejumps 0]

I am an American citizen and that makes this my country.

If you are proposing to give up all of your property and move off of US soil to make up for the US settling the New World and displacing American indians, then maybe you have a point. However, that is not what we are talking about. The indian argument is simply another distraction to avoid the point for a lack of a supportable argument.

BTW, yes, if an immigrant legally moves here, it is his or her country, as well as their children's. I am not holding myself out as special. We are not talking about legal immigrants, are we?

[kallend 1,649]

Quote

you're in america illegally and you cut your arm off in a tragic construction accident? tough tities, you took the risk.

What about the employer who hired the illegal for the construction site? Is he/she off the hook in your opinion?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Newbie 0]

Quote

Your arguement is fundamentally flawed. If you are a US Citizen... Then you can call the USA "Your" country. You pay taxes and you contribute.
Same in England.

Now..... I am guessing that your ancestors are not Native Brits. Go back far enough and you'll see I am right.

Most austrailians are not native either, but that is England's fault for Dumping their prisinoes there.

So I ask Newbie.... What's your point?

My argument isn't flawed because it's human nature - we all want the best for ourselves and our families. That will never change. Do i consider this "my" country? No. I am a citizen of this land, but i don't consider it mine. I don't consider the land where my parents came from mine either. I don't consider any where in the world "mine" because i personally think we should consider it "ours" as in all of ours, but thats too idealistic to many.

Just because i pay taxes does not mean i own anything here. It means i get something if i'm unwell (healthcare) it means i get an education for my kids and it means i have police, firefighters and paramedics to help me if i'm in trouble. I don't own anything but i do feel entitled to something. Now if someone comes here, wants to contribute and pay taxes, fine - let them - why should i keep someone down. But the original poster was not saying that - he was saying that these people must be stopped from entering "his" country. Illegals in this country and NOT subject to free health care, just as they are not in the US either, from what i understand. No one here illegally can claim benefits or welfare, the same as the US, from what i can gather.

I know Mexicans who came to America decades ago and made a nice life for themselves. They achieved the "American dream", through hard work and made a nice life for their family (surprisingly they only have 2 children!).
Not all 10 million Mexicans are illegal, not all 10 million have 10 kids and not all of them do nothing.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Newbie 0]

Quote

So you know, I have. I work with illegals on at least a weekly basis. It's very sad the conditions that they endure in order to try to give themselves a better life but we are subsidizing the poor choices of their governments.

Yes i can see how the influx of cheap labour, and therefore the ability for many businesses in the US to continue to supply you with cheap products and services, is the terrible price you are paying for "subsidising" these 3rd world countries political decisions.
Someone already made this point - there is no way you would get the standard of quality of life you have without cheap labour keeping it that way.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[tcnelson 1]

Quote

What about the employer who hired the illegal for the construction site? Is he/she off the hook in your opinion?

is hiring illegals illegal? yes, it is so, no, of course the employer is not off the hook for their poor behavior.

that's also a different topic.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[storm1977 0]

Quote

No-one would come here illegally if there wasn't an employer willing (wanting) to give them jobs.

Policing the border will never work, it's too long and difficult. Sanctioning employers who employ illegals is the way to go.

Do you like cheap lettuce and avocados, grapes and peaches? If so, then don't complain, you are part of the problem.

This is a common misconception!!!!
Policing the border can work!!!

China has been doing a pretty damn good job stopping N. Koreans coming across their border havent' they!!!!

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Treejumps 0]

Quote

"Somewhere you will find his ancestors who were not born and raised in the States, and who were not there legally"

So you are saying that no one eer immigrated to the US legally? You obviously have no knowledge fo the histtory of the US and immigration. The US has always allowed immigration by legal means and in fact just through Ellis Island from 1892 to 1954 12 million immigrants legally entered the US, including my ancestors. Compare that with 10 million Mexicans illegally entering the US in the last 20 years, most inthe last 10 years.

"unless you are 100% blood line Native American, somewhere at some point, your ancestors were immigrants themselves."

You are correct, LEGAL immigrants.

[kelel01 1]

Ahem . . . murdering, disease spreading immigrants in a land with no laws.

[Newbie 0]

Quote

It's not only the lefties fault. Both sides ignore this issue because of money. Some business and industry prosper from cheap labor and pass it on to the consumer. The SF chronicle did a report and found all types of industry use illegal labor, from hospitality to agriculture. The latter being the one which employed the most. Over 50% of the workers are illegal and paid meager wages. Like someone said you want cheap fruits and vegies stop bitching about illegals.

Quote

all these illegals moved in seasonal construction work, landscaping, and hospitality work was done by college kids out of school for the summer.

Do you actually think a college student is going to clean rooms or mow a lawn during the summer. Hell no. Most are looking for internships in their fields. Which looks better on a resume: mowed lawns for the summer or interned at Boeing.

Yes illegal immigration is a problem, but offer better solutions than militarize the border or hire college kids.

Good points, just what i was trying to say in the other post. If you have a link to the SF Chronicle article, i wouldn't mind reading it.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[storm1977 0]

Quote

Quote

Your arguement is fundamentally flawed. If you are a US Citizen... Then you can call the USA "Your" country. You pay taxes and you contribute.
Same in England.

Now..... I am guessing that your ancestors are not Native Brits. Go back far enough and you'll see I am right.

Most austrailians are not native either, but that is England's fault for Dumping their prisinoes there.

So I ask Newbie.... What's your point?

My argument isn't flawed because it's human nature - we all want the best for ourselves and our families. That will never change. Do i consider this "my" country? No. I am a citizen of this land, but i don't consider it mine. I don't consider the land where my parents came from mine either. I don't consider any where in the world "mine" because i personally think we should consider it "ours" as in all of ours, but thats too idealistic to many.

Just because i pay taxes does not mean i own anything here. It means i get something if i'm unwell (healthcare) it means i get an education for my kids and it means i have police, firefighters and paramedics to help me if i'm in trouble. I don't own anything but i do feel entitled to something. Now if someone comes here, wants to contribute and pay taxes, fine - let them - why should i keep someone down. But the original poster was not saying that - he was saying that these people must be stopped from entering "his" country. Illegals in this country and NOT subject to free health care, just as they are not in the US either, from what i understand. No one here illegally can claim benefits or welfare, the same as the US, from what i can gather.

I know Mexicans who came to America decades ago and made a nice life for themselves. They achieved the "American dream", through hard work and made a nice life for their family (surprisingly they only have 2 children!).
Not all 10 million Mexicans are illegal, not all 10 million have 10 kids and not all of them do nothing.

So, if you Buy property you don't own that????
Interesting!!!

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[kallend 1,649]

Quote

Quote

No-one would come here illegally if there wasn't an employer willing (wanting) to give them jobs.

Policing the border will never work, it's too long and difficult. Sanctioning employers who employ illegals is the way to go.

Do you like cheap lettuce and avocados, grapes and peaches? If so, then don't complain, you are part of the problem.

This is a common misconception!!!!
Policing the border can work!!!

China has been doing a pretty damn good job stopping N. Koreans coming across their border havent' they!!!!

And that border is how long compared to the US southern border? And China is totalitarian while the US is not (yet).

It can't work here. Sanctioning employers can.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[storm1977 0]

I will agree to disagree.

I think it can be done, but for political reasons, neither
side is will to step up and do what is right. (Or left)

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[masterrig 1]

Hey! My ancestry is from England. You wanna take me back? I guess, I could ask that of Scotland, Germany and so-on. My ancestors came through Ellis Island. I was born here as were my parents. I love this country, very much. I don't mind other folks coming here to live either. As long as they go through the process of becoming citizens of this country. They are entitled to the same rights and priviliges as those of us born here. I just don't like the idea of anyone 'sneaking' into this country and setting-up house-keeping. Especially those whose president, of the country they came from is demanding the same rights and priviliges as natural born or legalized citizens of this country. As for claiming benefits by illegal immigrants... it's done every day inthis country. If, it is so easy for them to enter this country... who els?


Chuck

[Newbie 0]

Of course you own the area it occupies, but does owning a house mean i should stop others coming here so they can buy their own too? Does it mean i call this "my" country and afflict some right of ownership over who should be able to come here? No. All it does is show me that if i can be comfortable, anyone should be allowed to be comforable as my neighbour, as long as they want to make a contribution to society, legally or otherwise.

If someone wants to come here, and mop floors in a restaurant and clean up after us illegally so they can live the life i'm lucky enough to have, go right ahead i say. Just because you have some material possession gives you no right to call a country "yours" in my opinion. Contribution to society and other citizens lives makes you a true "owner" of that land, not through material possessions.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

Ahem . . . murdering, disease spreading immigrants in a land with no laws.

My ancestors, who were immigrants, did not commit any murders or spread any diseases. I also doubt very much that the United States in 1948, when my mother arrived, was a "land with no laws."

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[masterrig 1]

Quote

Quote

I get tired of hearing how they only take the jobs folks in this country won't do.

Absolutely, just take a look at university professors in engineering and science - at least 50% of them are foreign, because Americans just won't take the rotten job. Same is true of scientists in the National Labs. Medical doctors too, just see how many of them are Indian or Chinese.

_________________________

Right-on and Amen! Sorry, I'm getting back to you late... I broke for lunch.


Chuck

[kelel01 1]

I was referring, of course, to the people who "first" inhabited this country and drove the Native Americans off their own land.

Was that not clear?

[tcnelson 1]

don't kid yourself. the vast majority of illegal immigrants DO NOT contribute to the society in which they live. that's the problem.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[tcnelson 1]

Quote

Was that not clear?

no, i didn't understand either.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[Newbie 0]

Quote

Hey! My ancestry is from England. You wanna take me back? I guess, I could ask that of Scotland, Germany and so-on. My ancestors came through Ellis Island. I was born here as were my parents. I love this country, very much. I don't mind other folks coming here to live either. As long as they go through the process of becoming citizens of this country. They are entitled to the same rights and priviliges as those of us born here. I just don't like the idea of anyone 'sneaking' into this country and setting-up house-keeping. Especially those whose president, of the country they came from is demanding the same rights and priviliges as natural born or legalized citizens of this country. As for claiming benefits by illegal immigrants... it's done every day inthis country. If, it is so easy for them to enter this country... who els?


Chuck

I agree with you - legal way is the best way. But, you have to understand and appreciate (as i'm sure you do) the legal means to now enter your country for a low skilled migrant worker is next to impossible. There is no way (from my understanding of the immigration laws there) they will be eligible to enter the country legally.

I think the misconception is poeple are doing this illegally because they have the option to do it legally, but for whatever reason are not taking that option. Given the immigration laws there, i would assume that you see so many illegals enter because frankly, they don't have the option to work there legally, unlike those who arrived even 50 years ago, who were able to enter the US far more easily and remain there.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

I was referring, of course, to the people who "first" inhabited this country and drove the Native Americans off their own land.

Was that not clear?

Actually, no, it wasn't. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I had read your post as responding the those (myself among them) who said, earlier in the thread, that they had ancestors who had legally immigrated to the US.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[kelel01 1]

Ok, then I'm glad I clarified.

I had really zoned in on the "Native American" part of the post I replied to, so I thought it was implied.

[storm1977 0]

Quote

Of course you own the area it occupies, but does owning a house mean i should stop others coming here so they can buy their own too? Does it mean i call this "my" country and afflict some right of ownership over who should be able to come here? No. All it does is show me that if i can be comfortable, anyone should be allowed to be comforable as my neighbour, as long as they want to make a contribution to society, legally or otherwise.

If someone wants to come here, and mop floors in a restaurant and clean up after us illegally so they can live the life i'm lucky enough to have, go right ahead i say. Just because you have some material possession gives you no right to call a country "yours" in my opinion. Contribution to society and other citizens lives makes you a true "owner" of that land, not through material possessions.

I honestly have no idea how you jump from one point to the next, but it seems like you are scrambling....

I call the USA "MY" country.
1) because I contribute to the society here.
2) I am a citizen (Legally)
3) I own property here
4) I pay taxes and vote here.
5) I have a vested interest in the sucsess of my nation.

Any person here Illegally has disrespected the country, the laws of the land and therefore shown no respect to the place I live. They should be removed immediately at the expense of the nation they are from. If they wish to move here as my ancestors did, they should file accordingly like my anscestors did.

Period. End of argument.
Anything beyond that is quite absurd.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty