10 million Mexicans

[kallend 1,635]

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Wait a minute! What are you trying to say here! You'r3 right, I'm old but, not THAT old!

Pretty typical for John to call people hypocrits based on something done by people hundreds of years ago. Personally, I hold people accountable by their personal actions, not by their ancestors, or by people their color or religion from centuries ago. I'm funny that way. I know it's not PC, but it makes more sense.

With that reasoning, I wonder who the american indians displaced in the Americas even farther back. How do we handle that? How far back do we go before we say, "OK, this date equal original owners"?

I'm not holding anyone accountable for what their ancestors did. I'm holding people accountable for expressing opinions about current intruders that they don't express about their ancestors who, in any objective sense, were far worse, and from whose actions they have greatly benefited.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm not holding anyone accountable for what their ancestors did. I'm holding people accountable for expressing opinions about current intruders that they don't express about their ancestors who, in any objective sense, were far worse, and from whose actions they have greatly benefited.

Understood and corrected. But if we did that, and not just about our ancestors, but to be fair, we'd have to generate a list of every single displacement in the history of mankind. Else having to comment on ONLY our ancestors in comparison would be a tacit expression or manipulation towards that undeserved guilt. (I think your response is even more indicative that you do subconsciously consider the sins of the great grandfathers to accrue to the presently innocent BTW)

I don't think it's hypocrisy, it's courtesy to keep the posting short. (I have enough trouble with that as it is).

How about you generate the list and go back about, say, 5000 years or so and we'll caviat that even that list isn't enough. Then every time we have this type of comment, people can just link to your list for brevity.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,129]

If we leave the past entirely out of the picture, then we run the risk of repeating a whole bunch of mistakes. But I do agree that there's a difference between what happened 500 years ago and what's happening today.

But, well, you can go too far, too. There is a lot of wealth running around America that was derived from property sold in a hurry by Nisei who were sent to internment camps during WW2, and a lot of wealth running around Europe that belonged to dispossessed Jews.

It's in their families now, but ignoring the source (which is what's generally done) sure seems like a strong incentive to turn a blind eye to wrongdoing if it will benefit you and yours in the future.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[gkc1436 3]

>The nation that you are so anxious to protect from intruders was founded by intruders who decimated the indigenous population and its cutures. I find this entire line of argument hypocritical


that is, until an illegal offers to do your job for lets say 50% of what it costs your employer to maintain your standard of living.

[wmw999 2,129]

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an illegal offers to do your job for lets say 50% of what it costs your employer to maintain your standard of living

It's not your employer's job to maintain your standard of living. It's your job to make sure your income supports your standard of living -- you can adjust either one.

If you're in a job that an illegal alien can take from you, then it's probably not supporting a real high standard of living anyway.

Unless you're talking about packers

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[waltappel 1]

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It's not your employer's job to maintain your standard of living. It's your job to make sure your income supports your standard of living -- you can adjust either one.

True, but one of the employer's many jobs is to see to it that the business' practices are LEGAL, and that is something that all too often takes a backseat to the pursuit of the almighty dollar.

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If you're in a job that an illegal alien can take from you, then it's probably not supporting a real high standard of living anyway.

Unless you're talking about packers

Wendy W.

No doubt, but those illegal aliens are a tax burden and, no matter what your income level, are costing you money.

Walt

[Enrique 0]

Maybe we should ask a Mexican what he thinks.

From what I'm told, the vast majority of tourists travelling to Mexico (the "Shit Hole" as you like to refer to it) are, in fact, from the U.S.of A.

From what I know, most of the people living in Baja California's beach front properties are retired U.S. citizens that live there illegaly: invading our coast line! Mexicans don't go around shooting "illegal immigrants".

What about all the military personnel that goes to Mexico to get drunk, litter, BREAK THE LAW (because Mexico has laws too, believe it or not), and basically do everything they are not allowed to do in their FREE country?

I do apologize for not referring to you as "American" as you like to call yourself, but I am quite certaing that you are aware of the fact that America is a continent, not a Country... at least according to my Geography teacher. But he may be wrong.

Perhaps I should not have replied to this email, but we'll see what happens. Just don't come and shoot me, alright?

Sincerely,

A stinky bean-eater living in a shit hole.

[waltappel 1]

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Maybe we should ask a Mexican what he thinks.

It's about damn time that a (I'm assuming here) Mexican citizen joined the discussion. You hve my most sincere thanks for joining in.

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From what I'm told, the vast majority of tourists travelling to Mexico (the "Shit Hole" as you like to refer to it) are, in fact, from the U.S.of A.

That is probably a safe bet. I looked at some old statistics and they indicate that 95+% of the tourists entering Mexico were from the US. Here is the link if you are interested: http://www.oas.org/TOURISM/mexico.htm

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From what I know, most of the people living in Baja California's beach front properties are retired U.S. citizens that live there illegaly: invading our coast line!

Really?!! (I mean absolutely no sarcasm here) I'd like to hear more about this!

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Mexicans don't go around shooting "illegal immigrants".

No, but a few years ago there was a really significant problem with violence against *legal* visitors. I don't know whether that has changed any. The US State Department still has a cautionary note about taxicab crime in Mexico City. From http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/regional/regional_1174.html:

U.S. citizens visiting Mexico City should absolutely avoid taking any taxi not summoned by telephone or on their behalf by a responsible individual or contracted in advance at the airport. Robbery assaults on passengers in taxis have become more frequent and violent, with passengers subjected to beatings and sexual assaults.

I doubt this is widespread throughout the country.

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What about all the military personnel that goes to Mexico to get drunk, litter, BREAK THE LAW (because Mexico has laws too, believe it or not), and basically do everything they are not allowed to do in their FREE country?

I must say that I find the behaviors of US citizens in Mexican border towns to be a real embarrassment for the US. There are things going on that could only happen where an affluent and very decadent country borders on a country with a large number of poor and desperate people. I find it shameful.

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I do apologize for not referring to you as "American" as you like to call yourself, but I am quite certaing that you are aware of the fact that America is a continent, not a Country... at least according to my Geography teacher. But he may be wrong.

This is a cultural difference that many people living south of the US have found annoying for a very long time. There really is no insult or arrogance intended by it--it really is nothing more than the common usage of the term that has somehow developed.

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Perhaps I should not have replied to this email, but we'll see what happens. Just don't come and shoot me, alright?

Sincerely,

A stinky bean-eater living in a shit hole.

Chill out a bit! I'm really interested in hearing much more from your point of view and I am sure that everyone else is also.

I think most (ok, I can't help it) Americans, i.e., US citizens view Mexico as a country where a huge portion of the population is getting screwed over by the government. There is an enormously uneven distribution of wealth, as there is in the US, but since the per capita income in Mexico is about one-fourth that of the US, there are many people there in truly desperate situations. Many of those people are coming to the US because of that.

If you have read any of my posts, you know that I am big-time in support of tightening the US borders, BUT I am also big-time in support of the Mexican government cleaning up its act and taking far better care of its people. I think most US citizens would agree.

For anyone interested, here is a link to the CIA's quick fact sheet on Mexico: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html

Here (once again) is a link to the US State Department's recommendations for US citizens travelling to Mexico: http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/regional/regional_1174.html

Please continue to contribute to the discussion. You will certainly have my attention.

Walt

p.s. No worries, I won't shoot you without a really outstanding reason!

[kelpdiver 2]

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but I am quite certaing that you are aware of the fact that America is a continent, not a Country... at least according to my Geography teacher. But he may be wrong.

Yeah, he might be. North America is a continent. South America is a continent. America is a short name for the United States of America. Do you expect everyone to say: soy de los estados unidos, o soy americano?

[wmw999 2,129]

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soy de los estados unidos, o soy americano

Soy otro gringo maldito

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[masterrig 1]

By your profile, you list San Ysidro as your 'home' and Mexico, as your country. My last recollection was that, San Ysidro is in San Diego County, California... USA!? I do know, there've been shots fired from the Mexican side of the Rio Grande into Texas and some folks on this side have died as a result. This has happened in recent years.


Chuck

[Enrique 0]

Hi Walt:

You are right about taxi cabs in Mexico City. The warning, however, is wrong. It is not only a warning issued to US visitors, it is a warning issued to ALL Mexico City visitors!!! Even other Mexicans. It is a very small area of land with millions of people crammed into it. If you add a little corruption, low wages, incompetent authorities, the results are obvious.

Just like you, I am all about doing things legally (although I am an attorney-at-law ). Tightening the border is a good thing. Shooting illegal immigrants is not! I personally disagree with Mexican officials and NGOs trying to protect or support illegal immigrants. It is simply not right. You have to fill out your application, wait in line, pay the fee, and cross your fingers to get a visa, not jump the fence.

This is a very complicated subject. One that we mortals may never solve unless we have the REAL insight from both our governments. We can not assert that we know all the facts all the time. Word out on the street has it that the US government (i.e., Border Patrol agents) allow a yearly quota of immigrants to go work the fields in the US. Direct information from someone I know proves that a lot of Border Patrol agents and US Customs officials receive bribes to allow this.

How do you think that so many drugs get into the US?

And that is a whole different subject. If there was no demand for drugs and/or illegal workers, there would be no trafficking or illegal immigration.

When I wrote that I didn't know if I should've replied to our fellow skydiver's post, I was thinking out loud. Sometimes it means giving attention to matters that will not be solved in a skydiving forum.

One thing is for sure: there is a lot of hate in this world. The USA has generated and accumulated a very good percentage of that hate by invading other countries (TRUE INVASIONS), taking control of foreign governments, violating the regulations of international bodies such as the UN, and a very long etc.

I sincerely believe the US governmnet is disregarding the laws of physics and world history. All empires have fallen... hard! What goes up, must come down... and it will sometime.

[Enrique 0]

Originally, there are five continents in the world. Europe, Asia, Africa, America, Oceania.
Modern geography teaches that there are seven: Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antartica, Europe and Australia/Oceania.

The name of my country is ESTADOS UNIDOS MEXICANOS. People living in this country are Mexicanos.

The name of your country is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (ESTADOS UNIDOS DE AMERICA). See the difference?

Oh, and lets not forget Canada... that is in North America, too, isn't it?

[Enrique 0]

And from Treejumper's profile I can see that he stated "THE WORLD" as his dropzone. I would assume that there are some places (like Mexico) where he would never set foot.

My profile states San Ysidro as my address only for mailing purposes. I am one of the lucky ones that has a passport, a visa, and can cross legally into the US after waiting about 2.5 hours in line and being scrutinized by a very unhappy US officer.

A funny thing that is not that funny: A lot of times, when Mexicans cross the border into the US (legally, they/we are mistreated by US customs officers. Surprisingly, Mexican-American officers are the ones that treat us the worst.

[waltappel 1]

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Just like you, I am all about doing things legally (although I am an attorney-at-law ). Tightening the border is a good thing. Shooting illegal immigrants is not!

Have there been incidents of shooting illegal immigrants along the border? If so, by whom?

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Word out on the street has it that the US government (i.e., Border Patrol agents) allow a yearly quota of immigrants to go work the fields in the US. Direct information from someone I know proves that a lot of Border Patrol agents and US Customs officials receive bribes to allow this.

The thought of US Border Patrol agents and/or Customs officials taking bribes really disturbs me--especially in this post-9/11 era. I'd be lying if I said it is a completely implausible scenario, though.

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How do you think that so many drugs get into the US?

I've always thought that it was one of those things where lust for money motivates the smugglers to always find new and better ways of doing their business. Guess I haven't thought much about the details.

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And that is a whole different subject. If there was no demand for drugs and/or illegal workers, there would be no trafficking or illegal immigration.

That's not the first time that point has been brought up here and it's one of the few points that I suspect everyone agrees on.

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When I wrote that I didn't know if I should've replied to our fellow skydiver's post, I was thinking out loud. Sometimes it means giving attention to matters that will not be solved in a skydiving forum.

Feel free to think out loud!

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One thing is for sure: there is a lot of hate in this world. The USA has generated and accumulated a very good percentage of that hate by invading other countries (TRUE INVASIONS), taking control of foreign governments, violating the regulations of international bodies such as the UN, and a very long etc.

I sincerely believe the US governmnet is disregarding the laws of physics and world history. All empires have fallen... hard! What goes up, must come down... and it will sometime.

I think there is a lot of truth to that, but it's a very broad blanket statement. I think if the full-blown invasions are looked at on a case-by-case basis, the US would not look all THAT bad.

I don't think that the US government's smaller-scale actions would fare as well, though. In the past, the US government has supported some very oppressive dictators because the dictators were US-friendly. I think overall, that has been a very serious mistake.

If I were running the US (thankfully I'm not!), I'd focus on cleaning up things domestically before trying to tell other countries how they should live. Actually, I'm not inclined to try and tell *anyone* how they should live. For example, I think everyone agrees that Sadaam Hussein has a long history of extremely sadistic acts toward his own people, but IMO that situation could not have existed as long as it did without the tacit approval of the Iraqi people. Same goes for any dictatorship.

That being said, I think the reality of the post-9/11 era is that the US needs to hunt down and kill the people who seek to kill us. It is simply a matter of survival.

Should we be in Iraq? I'm not really convinced that we should, but maybe it is a necessary step to fight the terrorists. I don't know.

One ugly reality that bothers me is that US-based multi-national companies aren't necessarily the most ethical organizations when operating in other countries, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts.

Walt

[masterrig 1]

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And from Treejumper's profile I can see that he stated "THE WORLD" as his dropzone. I would assume that there are some places (like Mexico) where he would never set foot.

My profile states San Ysidro as my address only for mailing purposes. I am one of the lucky ones that has a passport, a visa, and can cross legally into the US after waiting about 2.5 hours in line and being scrutinized by a very unhappy US officer.

A funny thing that is not that funny: A lot of times, when Mexicans cross the border into the US (legally, they/we are mistreated by US customs officers. Surprisingly, Mexican-American officers are the ones that treat us the worst.

_______________________________________

You didn't have to do that but, I appreciate your clarifying things. I was just curious. Unfortunately, I understand what you're saying about U.S. Customs officers of Mexican descent. I've observed it. I've been in Mexican Border towns, usually, for a meal with friends. Tecate, Matamoros and good ol' TJ. That was when I saw the difference in treatment of border crossers.
So, You've been reading our version of things in this thread. What are some of your thoughts? I'm trying to 'communicate' here. All the best to you.


Chuck

[Enrique 0]

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Have there been incidents of shooting illegal immigrants along the border? If so, by whom?

On the Mexican side of the fence there are about 198 (+/-) crosses that represent each of the immigrants that were killed by gunfire or died of other causes in their attempt to cross illegaly into the U.S. Some of those have names, some of them don't. Also, check the web for Minuteman Project and related discussions.

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I think there is a lot of truth to that, but it's a very broad blanket statement. I think if the full-blown invasions are looked at on a case-by-case basis, the US would not look all THAT bad.

You are right. I should not generalize and for that I apologize.

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I don't think that the US government's smaller-scale actions would fare as well, though. In the past, the US government has supported some very oppressive dictators because the dictators were US-friendly. I think overall, that has been a very serious mistake.

Agree again.

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If I were running the US (thankfully I'm not!), I'd focus on cleaning up things domestically before trying to tell other countries how they should live.

Hats off! That is precisely my point.

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That being said, I think the reality of the post-9/11 era is that the US needs to hunt down and kill the people who seek to kill us. It is simply a matter of survival.

Yes, but who started it?

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Should we be in Iraq? I'm not really convinced that we should, but maybe it is a necessary step to fight the terrorists. I don't know.

Who trained the terrorists in the first place? (i.e., Osama) You reap what you sow.

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One ugly reality that bothers me is that US-based multi-national companies aren't necessarily the most ethical organizations when operating in other countries, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

Tell me about it! I give counseling to foreign investors coming to Mexico.

[Enrique 0]

Here's my take on things:

I DO NOT ADVOCATE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. I DO NOT ADVOCATE THE INVASION OF A COUNTRY.

As you know, not all illegal immigrants are Mexican. A good percentage are from Central and South America. From what I know, Mexican immigrants (although illegal) flock to the US in search of better paying jobs, not a chance to commit crimes!

And by crimes I mean steal, rape, kill. It is obvious that illegal immigration is a crime and that is why I clarify this point.

Tijuana is a city that has been long affected by those illegal immigrants that cannot make it across the border. They stay here with no money, no family, no friends, no job. I would say that 99% of those that were unsuccessful and stay here turn to heavy drugs and stealing, therefore compromising our central area. People living in border towns dislike illegal immigration as much as you do. It affects our living standards.

Notwithstanding, I strongly believe that words of hate or bullets solve nothing. A gun might solve the problem momentarily, but not the core of the matter.

Perhaps if we all read a little bit more, if we investigated about each other's background, language, customs, it would be easier to understand.

[bodypilot90 0]

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This is a very complicated subject.

no it's not, do not come here by any means other than legal, period.

[waltappel 1]

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That being said, I think the reality of the post-9/11 era is that the US needs to hunt down and kill the people who seek to kill us. It is simply a matter of survival.

Yes, but who started it?

That is a VERY good question. Another good question ishow the hell do we stop it?

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Should we be in Iraq? I'm not really convinced that we should, but maybe it is a necessary step to fight the terrorists. I don't know.

Who trained the terrorists in the first place? (i.e., Osama) You reap what you sow.

I suppose you are referring to the fact that when the Soviet Union was fighting in Afghanistan, the US, in a not-very-covert way, was supporting the Afghanis ("freedom fighters", as we called them) by supplying them with tons of weapons and have been used against US troops.

I have read that it was in this environment that Osama formed Al Qaeda. They were fighting the Soviet infidels at the time, but turned their attention toward the "American" infidels later.

I don't care what their motivation is, to me the bottom line is that Al Qaeda is a bunch of murderous thugs. Osama's own country (Saudi Arabia) kicked him out. I suppose that says something about him.

Supplying weapons to psychos just because they were fighting the Soviets is definitely coming back to haunt the US. The philosophy that says, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", doesn't seem like such a great idea in a post-cold-war era. It probably wasn't such a good idea at the time, but that was the way that the USSR and the USA played the game back then.

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One ugly reality that bothers me is that US-based multi-national companies aren't necessarily the most ethical organizations when operating in other countries, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

Tell me about it! I give counseling to foreign investors coming to Mexico.

I would really like to hear some stories about that!

Walt

[Enrique 0]

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This is a very complicated subject.

no it's not, do not come here by any means other than legal, period.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

[masterrig 1]

Thank you, for what you've said. I like hearing the other side of the story. I helps my understanding.


Chuck

[Treejumps 0]

Actually I spent my honeymoon in Playa Del Carmen and Cancun, have been to TJ, and a couple other border towns. Outside the resort areas its not much to speak of. Even our run down neighborhoods in DC look much better than the average town in Mexico. Don't blame me. I didn't make it that way. It is merely a factual observation.

We have the same view that all of the great empires of the world have fallen. What will be the downfall of the US? Possibly uncontrolled illegal immigration?

[waltappel 1]

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Thank you, for what you've said. I like hearing the other side of the story. I helps my understanding.


Chuck

I'll second that!!!

Walt

[Enrique 0]

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no it's not, do not come here by any means other than legal, period.