Terri Schiavo... Died

[Michele 1]

I was silent on the other threads about this subject, as I was torn. There is no clear position for me, as I believe both in life and in choice. I understand both sides completely.

I have been appalled by the circus which played out, and is still playing out; both from the federal government and media as well as the family. I also see some good coming out of this; I've had "the conversation" with my entire family, and have become far more clear as to their positions. They have become far more clear as to mine.

But I am also sadly happy for Terri, that she now is free - completely and utterly free to move to the next phase, whatever that may be. To move toward her God, and to have obeyed the last rites of her faith must have been a release for her soul. To know she is now complete and whole again, to have been released from her body, has brought me some peace with the situation.

It also appalls me the manner in which the release was delivered. The starvation, the dehydration is atrocious. A compassionate society does not allow the suffering this must have created, even if she "didn't know." What we don't know is what she suffered; and this is horrifying to me. The worst of our society receives more humane treatment in their final moments via lethal injection, and no suffering is allowed (cruel and unusual punishment was the rallying cry to change the manner of death from hanging to firing squad to electric chair to lethal injection). To know that a woman who committed no crime was treated less humanely by our society than a serial killer is utterly incomprehensible to me.

And so now, knowing she has died, I still have no clear answer. I have no position pro or con, as again I see both sides.

I can only think "at last, Terri, you're free. At last, Terri, you're whole. And at last, Terri, you rest."

God speed and God bless.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[foxyroxtail 0]

Yes - you choose your life partner, and that relationship is fundamentally an extension of you.

While we have close family ties, the bond of blood, even deep love of/with family, the intimacy is not typically what spouses share, and no one should know you better than your spouse.

[flyangel2 2]

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I watched my father die, had I been denyed access by anyone - there would have been a big problem. I love my mother, those wishes won't change.

I'm glad you were there for your father. I'm also glad I was there for Jack without his family in the room.

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You don't know either what conversations this "couple" had. We only know what HE says.

Oh, and Terri's family isn't saying any thing?

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[bivar 0]

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> Did you also see that Mr Wonderful denied her family access during her last hour alive?

I don't blame him one bit. He has a right to spend his wife's last hours with her, and knowing what her parents have done so far, they would have tried something (like rescuscitation.)

I am glad this is finally over, and am impressed that Michael Schiavo acted as an advocate for his wife's wishes and defended them against all those who wanted to use her for their own purposes. I think this world would be a better place if there were more people like him, willing to endure death threats, public approbation, and media slander to make sure his dying wife's wishes are carried out - and to stick to his guns for 15 years.

Well said Bill.

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[03CLS 0]

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Did you also see that Mr Wonderful denied her family access during her last hour alive? The anger I feel right now toward him/it is over whelming.


J

I think without a will the parents if alive should have the legal right to deal with this. When push comes to shove they "well most" are your only real friends.

[jlmiracle 7]

My mother gave me life, not my husband. I love him dearly, but I would haunt him for the rest of his life if he denyed my mother and family access to me on my death bed.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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There are times in a relationship when you have a conversation with your mate, and the subject is brought up that you want your mate to go on with their life and re-marry if something were to happen to them. Do you not believe that Michael and Terri did not have that discussion?

I was on a date the other night (wow can you believe I actually got a date) and during part of this date, myself and this woman discussed the "Right to Die" topic and this girl told me that "she would not want to live like Terri has lived these last 15 years". So if i was to go on and become serious with this woman I've already had the conversation with her. Of course a Living Will is a must after this debacle, but why is it so hard for the "Pro Lifers at all Cost" to believe that the Shiavos didn't also have their conversation.

I do agree that how they killed her (this whole starvation and dehydration business) seems wrong in a modern compassionate society. But all medical evidence is that Terri Shavio ceased to exist as many knew her back in 1990 with no chance at a meaningful recovery. And now she is finally at peace. Of course the religious and secular societal battles have only begun and don't be surprised if/when some nut case pops Michael Shiavo, Michael Shiavo's lawyer and judge Greer.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[03CLS 0]

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>Stuck to his guns? He has a girlfriend and kids with another woman. Was
>that part of her wishes.

She left this planet 15 years ago. The only things left to do at that point were a) make sure there was nothing else anyone could do for her (which he did for 8 years) and b) carry out her final wishes with respect to her body.

>Was denying her family access to her on her death bed part of her wishes?

In his judgement, yes. When a man and woman are married, they in many ways become one person - and each can then speak for the other.

HIS Judgement? Their becoming one person was over 15 years ago like you said when she left this planet.

[Ron 7]

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My mother has permission and it is my wish for her (or someone) to shoot to kill anyone that would prevent her from seeing me on my death bed.

And Terri's wish was to not live in that state. Would you be OK if your Mom was not allowed to see you?

See Terri didn't want to live that way. Mike did everything he could to try and bring her back for 9 years. When it was considered done and over, and she was considered "gone". He tried to carry out her wishes. Her family prevented him from doing it for 7 years.

If your husband died would you never remarry or even date? Terri died that day 15 years ago. Mike fought for 9 years till he admitted she was gone...Then he moved on.

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He had already moved on with his life along time ago, got a girlfriend and some kids from someone else. Now that sounds like true love and compassion.

No, the love and compassion was that he didn't just wash his hands of the issue when he realized that it was hopeless. He had plenty of opportunities to walk away. It would have been much easier for him to walk away. Hell, he was even offered money to walk away.

But the real love for his wife was that he stayed, and fought to make sure her last wishes were carried out and not let her body lie there. He endured his wifes family calling him every name in the book, them blaming him for her condition. He and his family endured death threats, hate mail and being considered evil.

He did all that because he loved his wife and wanted to carry out her wishes.

THAT is love.

Leaving her as a pile of organs just so her parents could keep her like some people have a taxidermist stuff a pet would have been the easy way.

He loved her enough to endure all the BS so her wishes were carried out.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[flyangel2 2]

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My mother gave me life, not my husband. I love him dearly, but I would haunt him for the rest of his life if he denyed my mother and family access to me on my death bed.

Then make sure you have that written out, and you give a copy to your mother.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Ron 7]

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It also appalls me the manner in which the release was delivered. The starvation, the dehydration is atrocious.A compassionate society does not allow the suffering this must have created

There was no suffering.

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Patients in a persistent vegetative state do not feel pain, nor do they "suffer," says Michael De Georgia, MD, head of the neurology-neurosurgery intensive care unit at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation here.


Pain, as well as suffering, requires consciousness, which is lacking in a person in a persistent vegetative state, says Dr. De Georgia.


"Certainly these patients don't suffer," he adds. "Suffering is really that whole emotional aspect of pain: fear, anxiety, panic surrounding pain. You have to have consciousness to experience these emotions. So just as a person in a persistent vegetative state can't experience pain because of a lack of consciousness, they also don't suffer."

http://www.medpagetoday.com/tbindex.cfm?tbid=753&thePhoto=Today's&CatName=&CID=

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,400]

>Their becoming one person was over 15 years ago like you said when she left this planet.

Agreed. The only thing left to do was dispose of her body as she wished. It took him 7 years to make sure that happened the way she wanted. (The first 8 was taken up making absolutely sure she was gone.)

[jlmiracle 7]

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If your husband died would you never remarry or even date? Terri died that day 15 years ago. Mike fought for 9 years till he admitted she was gone...Then he moved on.

Then divorce her - she was still alive! If he was so desperate to move on with his life, all he had to do was divorce her. She did not have a living will, some people THINK they know best, some do and some don't.

J

Again, my mother gave me life, if she is denyed access, someone is gonna pay.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[jlmiracle 7]

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My mother gave me life, not my husband. I love him dearly, but I would haunt him for the rest of his life if he denyed my mother and family access to me on my death bed.

Then make sure you have that written out, and you give a copy to your mother.

All ready have. I can't believe so many people disrespect their parents so much.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[billvon 2,400]

>Then divorce her - she was still alive!

I admire people who do not take that easy way out. It's easy to discard someone like that, a lot harder to stay with them and fight for what they wanted.

[jlmiracle 7]

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I admire people who do not take that easy way out. It's easy to discard someone like that, a lot harder to stay with them and fight for what they wanted.

It would be more admirable if he didn't have a live-in girlfriend and a couple of kids with her. Its alot easier just to have a mistress than deal with the courts on a divorce.


MS got his cake and got to eat it too.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[03CLS 0]

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There are times in a relationship when you have a conversation with your mate, and the subject is brought up that you want your mate to go on with their life and re-marry if something were to happen to them. Do you not believe that Michael and Terri did not have that discussion?

I was on a date the other night (wow can you believe I actually got a date) and during part of this date, myself and this woman discussed the "Right to Die" topic and this girl told me that "she would not want to live like Terri has lived these last 15 years". So if i was to go on and become serious with this woman I've already had the conversation with her. Of course a Living Will is a must after this debacle, but why is it so hard for the "Pro Lifers at all Cost" to believe that the Shiavos didn't also have their conversation.

I do agree that how they killed her (this whole starvation and dehydration business) seems wrong in a modern compassionate society. But all medical evidence is that Terri Shavio ceased to exist as many knew her back in 1990 with no chance at a meaningful recovery. And now she is finally at peace. Of course the religious and secular societal battles have only begun and don't be surprised if/when some nut case pops Michael Shiavo, Michael Shiavo's lawyer and judge Greer.

Sure people have this conversation, BUT when you have it for the most part your not in this condition and I'm sure things can change and they do and as far as the way she dies, (this whole starvation and dehydration business) they said she wouldn't even know the difference.

[justinb138 0]

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She did not have a living will, some people THINK they know best,

You're talking about her parents right?

[jlmiracle 7]

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She did not have a living will, some people THINK they know best,

You're talking about her parents right?

Could be either...

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Ron 7]

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Then divorce her

If he had taken the easy way out she would have been kept around by her parents just to make them feel better...Just like a person who stuffs their dead pet. NOT what she wanted. Mike did the right thing.

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she was still alive!

No, she was not alive. SHE was gone. What was left was nothing more than a bunch of organs with no person there. *She* was quite gone.

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If he was so desperate to move on with his life, all he had to do was divorce her.

He spent 15 years trying to carry out his wifes last wishes. 8-9 trying to rehabilitate her, and then the rest trying to perform his last duty to her.

He finally realized that she was gone and never comming back...but her dumb ass parents just wanted to keep her around so THEY could feel better.

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She did not have a living will

Almost no one had one 15 years ago. In the State of FL all that is needed is a verbal agreement.

Mike did the right thing, he tried like hell to bring her back. when it became clear that it was over he tried to perform his duty...All the time people called him all kinds of names and even death threats were made on him and his family. He could have taken the easy way out, but he stayed the course of his wifes wishes.

Yes, he moved on, you would as well.

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Again, my mother gave me life, if she is denyed access, someone is gonna pay.

How? Let her shoot someone and she will spend her life in jail or dead with you.

Like it or not Spouse beats Mom in legal land.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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MS got his cake and got to eat it too.

You think any of this was EASY for him?

Oh please

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[03CLS 0]

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>Their becoming one person was over 15 years ago like you said when she left this planet.

Agreed. The only thing left to do was dispose of her body as she wished. It took him 7 years to make sure that happened the way she wanted. (The first 8 was taken up making absolutely sure she was gone.)

Says who? That's right her husband and the courts that beleived him. Again without a living will the parents should be the deciding factor and just let the widow get on with their lives unless of course the agree.

[Ron 7]

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Says who?

The law.

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Again without a living will the parents should be the deciding factor and just let the widow get on with their lives unless of course the agree.

Spouse beats Parents...And it should be that way. I had conversations with the woman I CHOOSE to be with that I did not have with my parents.

Her parents wanted her around just so they could feel better...They never took her wishes into account.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,400]

>Again without a living will the parents should be the deciding factor . . .

Her husband is her closest living relative, and is charged with making such decisions. That's part of all those vows that people who get married make. If you don't want such responsibility, it's easier to not get married - then the parents do indeed remain her closest living relatives.

[jlmiracle 7]

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They never took her wishes into account.

No one REALLY knows what her wishes were.

I see him as taking the easy way out in NOT getting a divorce. He picked up a girlfriend and moved on. Maybe that was his excuse for not marrying the new girl?

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.