Gay men/ rare STD/ and spreading HIV!

[Keith 0]

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Although it's true that rectum tissue has a high rate of absorption, it is not an organ to my knowledge.

The rectum is an organ

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[EBSB52 0]

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Although it's true that rectum tissue has a high rate of absorption, it is not an organ to my knowledge.

The rectum is an organ

OK, I stand corrected, I thought it would be like tissue - must be different tissues.

[crwtom 0]

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Personally, I blame the assholes in Ur that screwed up our society from the get go, leading us down the road of written law that has held us under the man since then.

There's not only history - there's also (historical) literature:


Sir Thomas More: "This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast. Man's laws, not God's. And if you cut them down - and you're just the man to do it - do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? "


(A Man for All Seasons, R. Bolt)

Cheers, T

PS: just curious ... how do you work up a 17post/day average and
still be able to work for food and skydives?

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Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[AggieDave 6]

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how do you work up a 17post/day average and
still be able to work for food and skydives?

I skydive for work, so during the week all I've been doing lately is trying to get hired on to be a cop and that's a long process. So basically I do some metal work, lift weights and do martial arts Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. Wednesday, Friday-Sunday I'm at the DZ working/jumping. When I get home instead of simply watching TV on the couch, I get on the computer surf the web and post.

It also helps that I type over 100wpm and have broadband.


Hey, good reference with the quote! I love that sort of stuff.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[storm1977 0]

Sorry been away for a few days

Ok, so what was my point in this thread.... It is simple this.

I am a smoker.
My parents are both over weight.

One day while outside at work haveing a cigarett, an older heavy (fat) woman looked at me and said "smoking will kill you, you know!!! and I shouldn't have to pay for your medical expenses"

I thought to myself.... yeah no shit and being fat is just as likely to kill you!!!

Of course being the pussy I am, I just smiled and didn't say a word.

Right now in Washington, there are people lobbying to Ban smoking, obecity, and every other activity which is deemed harmful to oneself or the public at large.

But nothing is EVER mentioned about gays and unprotected sex.

Now, you can argue with me all day long about hetero vs. Homo, but the fact is, there are more gay men infected with HIV and other STDs as a total percentage than any other group of people in the USA.

People don't want to pay for my NEW LUNGS when I need them.
People don't want to pay for my Moms Gastric Bypass when she needs it.
And I don't want to pay for a persons AIDs meds when they need them because they chose to fuck without a rubber.... In many cases with people know to be infected!


There isa large Gay lobby in the USA.... Infact they covered up statistics on the % of gay men infected with HIV for years.

They don't want the public to know the truth about the severity of the problem, but when push comes to shove, they will want the public to pay for it....

Risky behavior is risky behavior.... My smoking does no one any good, and I know that. I am adicted, and I am working to break that adiction. It is tough, but it is an addiction. ANAL SEX without a condom with an infected individual is not an addiction, it is a choice... and a very poor one. One that not only the individual will have to pay for, but possibly many others who are infected by them. And, society as a whole, financially...

Thoughts comments?

Chris

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Casurf1978 0]

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Now, you can argue with me all day long about hetero vs. Homo, but the fact is, there are more gay men infected with HIV and other STDs as a total percentage than any other group of people in the USA.

That's a pretty strong argument. I'll give you that yes there are more HIV cases among sexually active gay men than hetero. It's also the nature of the bug that makes it easier for a gay man to get it than and hetero one. But overall STDs, facts would be nice. On average one in four americans has herpes, many dont know since the are not showing any symptoms. Here's another fact I learned in my human sexuality class at the Uni this was from the Kaiser foundation: close to 70% of 17-25 year olds dont use condoms when alcohol or drugs are involved. Dont be too quick to point reckless sexual behavior and the repercussion it has on one group in society.

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There isa large Gay lobby in the USA.... Infact they covered up statistics on the % of gay men infected with HIV for years.

You want facts on HIV infections in the USA. Go to the CDC and look up the most recent report on HIV/AIDS from 1999-2003. I'm sure this 'Gay Lobby' doctored these documents. One thing you'll hopefully will learn is that HIV/AIDS and other STDS are not mutually exclusive to one group. You cant use one group in society as a scape goat for a bug that doesnt care if your black, white, rich, poor gay or straight.

[Ron 7]

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That's a pretty strong argument

Then you agree with it.

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I'll give you that yes there are more HIV cases among sexually active gay men than hetero.

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One thing you'll hopefully will learn is that HIV/AIDS and other STDS are not mutually exclusive to one group

He never said that.

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You cant use one group in society as a scape goat for a bug that doesnt care if your black, white, rich, poor gay or straight.

No, you can't use them as a scape goat...But you alos can not ignore the that gay men are the largest segment of the population that is spreading the disease.

The reasons are important, but so is the group. If I had to implement a program to try and reduce AIDS in the US and I could only target one group...It would be gay men that I would target first. Next would be Black Females.

I would target those groups based on the numbers of new cases each year have those two at the top.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AndyMan 7]

I don't understand.

To start with, I don't even understand your anecdote about the fat lady complaining about you being a smoker. The taxes you pay on your cigarettes more than pay for any health care expenses you'll ever cost the taxpayer. As far as I'm concerned, more people should smoke, because that means I'll pay less in taxes.

The second thing I don't understand is how HIV is costing you money. America stands alone in the industrialized world as having a capitalist health care system. The base system is such that the "user pays". Only for the very poor and the very old, does the government help with health care costs..

Some people choose to use Health Insurance to help manage their health care costs, but that is entirely a choice. Most employers will allow anyone to "opt out" of the company health policy, and get the cash they would have paid.

If you really don't want to pay for anybody elses HIV medication, you have a very easy solution. Cancel your health insurance, and self-insure. A great many people do self-insure, and unless you're in a high risk group for anything, it's often the financially prudent way to go.

Of course, you're a skydiver (i think...), so you are in one particular "high risk group", yourself.

As an aside, I wonder if you ever did have a skydiving accident and break your tib/fib and femur, would you expect others to pay for it? Or, would you turn down the insurance money, and insist to pay the hospital the full cash price, just on principle? Clearly, you risk such injury by engaging in such a risky sport.

Getting back to things I don't understand, I don't understand how you think anyone would possibly argue "all day long" that in America, the gay population is the largest demographic group affected by HIV. That HIV once decimated the gay community is clear and well known. That the gay community still has challenges in stopping the spread of the disease is also clear. Indeed, as I pointed out to you in this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1360253, the CDC reports a full %44 of new cases of HIV are due to male:male sexual contact. CDC stats here.

For others reading, these stats to paint an interesting picture, and are certainly worth a read. I did some extrapolation in Excel and posted the numbers here.

As that same report also points out, the difference in rates of homosexual and heterosexual infection isn't terribly large, nor is the differences in rates between heterosexual and IV drug use terribly large. Clearly an effective policy to rid us of this scourge would require targetting all three. I believe current national HIV policy does infact do that.

The last thing I don't understand about is where this rant is coming from. I'm not aware of any big push by the gay community to get anyone to pay for any new drugs.

I can only assume that this rant is just another example of you wearing your ignorance and intollerance on your sleeve.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[craddock 0]

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Getting back to things I don't understand, I don't understand how you think anyone would possibly argue "all day long" that in America, the gay population is the largest demographic group affected by HIV

This is not what he said although the numbers you supplied certainly do support this.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[storm1977 0]

Wow.... You know I was actually interested in what you had to say right until I got to this part:

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I can only assume that this rant is just another example of you wearing your ignorance and intollerance on your sleeve.

That is pretty typical !!!

You don't like to hear things which go against your
beliefs... And when you do, you simply lable them
as a
"racist", "homophobe" "Sexist" "Ignorant Person"

By doing this AndyMan.... It simply makes you look ignorant.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[storm1977 0]

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It's also the nature of the bug that makes it easier for a gay man to get it than and hetero one.

Enough Said..... That is my point exactly. So, if the nature of the bug makes it easier for gay men to get it, don't you think GAY MEN have a responsibility to have themselves tested often, use protection, and try to prevent the spread of the disease?

If Gay men in are the largest cause of the spread of disease in the USA, don't you think something ought to be done about it?

Why hasn't the gay community tried from within to be more vocal about this?

This is the Gorilla in the corner that no one in the Gay community really wants to discuss....
Why?

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[storm1977 0]

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To start with, I don't even understand your anecdote about the fat lady complaining about you being a smoker.

Well, that is my bad I didn't really finish that thought.

What I find strange is that people feel like they can comment on my personal behavior like smoking habbits, or eating habbits. There are groups who do nothing but lobby to stop freedoms we have in this country because they deem them bad.
However, anytime someone (like me in this instance) brings up something about GAYS and their bad behavior, they are immeadiatley labled as Ignorant or a homophobe.... blaa blaa blaa...

And, I would hate to break it to you Andy, but you did exactly that in your last post.

Let me say one thing... This is of course My opinion:
Any one who is HIV+ or has AIDS, and knowingly has unprotected sex with someone else should be jailed. Consent or no consent. The only exception I see to this rule would be if both parties involved were ifected, and therefore there is no risk of further infection.

You can argue with me all you want Andy....
But this is plain and simply reckless, juvinile, and insane behavior.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Keith 0]

So, if the nature of unwanted pregnancy makes it easier for straight people to have children, don't you think STRAIGHT PEOPLE have a responsibility to use protection, and try to prevent unwanted children?

If Straight people are the largest cause of neglected children in the USA, don't you think something ought to be done about it?

Why hasn't the straight community tried from within to be more vocal about this?

This is the Gorilla in the corner that no one in the Straight community really wants to discuss....
Why?

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The point being we can use this same argument for many social ills. However, gay men are harming only themselves by not being protected. Straight people are harming innocent children by not being protected.

So, what are You doing to help stop the spread of AIDS?

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[billvon 2,433]

>But nothing is EVER mentioned about gays and unprotected sex.

??? There are MASSIVE campaigns in the gay community concerning safe sex.

>It is tough, but it is an addiction.

That's a cop out. No virus has taken control of your muscles and made you put cigarettes in your mouth. Your addiction makes you want to do something risky; you DECIDE to do something risky. Claiming "oh, it's an addiction, I can't do anything about it!" is a copout. You can; you choose not to.

Homosexuals (and heterosexuals) have the same choice. They have programming (an addiction, if you will) to have sex with a certain kind of person. They have a choice if they want to have sex in a risky way, in a safe way, or abstain altogether.

You should not smoke. People should not have unprotected sex. Personally, I think education is the best way to stop those two undesireable behaviors, and several organizations have done fairly good jobs educating people as to the risks of both kinds of behaviors.

[Keith 0]

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Let me say one thing... This is of course My opinion:
Any one who is HIV+ or has AIDS, and knowingly has unprotected sex with someone else should be jailed. Consent or no consent. The only exception I see to this rule would be if both parties involved were ifected, and therefore there is no risk of further infection.

Nobody is saying gay men shouldn't be responsible for their actions. What we're saying is pinning the whole solution on one group of repsonsible people won't solve the problem.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[storm1977 0]

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What we're saying is pinning the whole solution on one group of repsonsible people won't solve the problem.

Nope it won't, and that is not what I said.
However, if the demographic shows gay men have the largest problem.... Why wounld you go afer the largest problem.

Likewise to use your analogy of pregnancy...

76% of babies born from Black Women between the ages of 16-25 are born into single parent households.

That is a stagering statistic!!!! It is also somethin I posted about a year ago when the Census data was put out from 2000.
So, should we target suburban white teens???? NO.
A campaign was started targeting inner city black teens. Mostly girls, but Men too. There is no proof that that it is working yet, but they have started to attack the largest problem.
Bill Cosby too has spoken up on this topic (Ironic I know) to also make people aware.

Now, I would argue that an unwanted child is a lot better a situation to be in, than getting HIV or AIDs,
again my opinion.

Chris

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Casurf1978 0]

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Enough Said..... That is my point exactly. So, if the nature of the bug makes it easier for gay men to get it, don't you think GAY MEN have a responsibility to have themselves tested often, use protection, and try to prevent the spread of the disease?

Everyone who is promiscuous should be tested EVERYONE and use protection. Lucklily my dad being an MD drove safe sex and getting tested into my head when I was teen since he knew teens are getting laid left and right and I still had unprotected sex in college and HS. Yeah I was a dumbass. Over 88K women got this bug from 1999-2003, most from positive hetero partner. 1 in 4 Americans has herpes, most dont know and the ones that do sometimes dont mention it. There is no excuse if your f-ing around not to get tested and use protection. I even read somewhere that Chlymadia (sp) is on the rise too. It's not about gay men or straight men, its about being a responsible adult. I guess we are around the same age, by your screenname. Look at your group of friends how many of them have gotten tested for any STD.

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Why hasn't the gay community tried from within to be more vocal about this?

How do you know this?

[Lindsey 0]

Educating gay men is great. It's been done with pretty decent success in the 80's and 90's. Unfortunately as that population ages, then we have teenagers having sex and believing that the dangers of AIDS are behind us. This new generation of men having sex with men is at great risk.

However, educating these guys does very little to influence the behavior of young, black, heterosexual women in the South. Here, that's the largest group contracting HIV today. It's a very, very difficult problem.

Another problem is fetally-contracted HIV. The child can't do much to minimize his/her own risk in this situation....

Placing the onus on gay men to solve the HIV problem will only solve the problem for one subset of the population.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[storm1977 0]

I do agree with what you said, however, I never put the onus on Gay men to fix the aids problem.

I put the onus on gay men to solve the Aids problem within the gay community.

I have never denighed that hetero's don't get HIV.... Look at Africa. Be happy the US's problem isn't that large yet.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[kelpdiver 2]

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76% of babies born from Black Women between the ages of 16-25 are born into single parent households.

That is a stagering statistic!!!! It is also somethin I posted about a year ago when the Census data was put out from 2000.
So, should we target suburban white teens???? NO.

If the problem at hand is that 76% of black women are having children alone, then no shit, targetting surburban whites is pointless.

Of course, might want to see how many (in number) white women are doing same thing before categorizing this solely as a black problem.

[Lindsey 0]

I put the onus on gay men to solve the Aids problem within the gay community.

The problem with this is that many men who have sex with men also have sex with women.....who have sex with other people and have children who (hopefully grow old enough to) have sex with other people. You just can't pin the problem on gay men, like many people want to do. Heterosexuals have unprotected sex too. But I don't see a lot of folks wanting to bash heterosexual couples who don't always have safe sex.

I agree that once a person knows that he/she has any sexually transmittable disease he/she should inform any sexual partner. BUT anyone who contracts any disease sexually really can't put the whole blame on the person passing it on. It takes a willing recipient too. Protect yourself. You can't expect that others will be as concerned about your health as you are....

Just as an aside....I read a blurb in a previous post about two people having sex who are both HIV positive, and this not being a problem as they cannot reinfect each other. This is not true. There are many strains of the virus, some more virulent than others, and some more responsive to antiretroviral therapy. A person can be reinfected with a different strain of the virus, increasing the risk of morbidity and mortality.

Peace~
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Keith 0]

So then you're saying straight white people should have no social responsibility AND, having unwanted, neglected, often physically and mentally abused children is preferable to adults suffering their own consequences??? I'm done with this tread.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[AndyMan 7]

Man, I'm even more confused. Hell, I'll go even further. I'm ignorant!

First you say this: "What I find strange is that people feel like they can comment on my personal behavior like smoking habbits, or eating habbits. There are groups who do nothing but lobby to stop freedoms we have in this country because they deem them bad. ".

You complain about people who lobby to "stop freedoms".

Then, just a few paragraphs later, you say in bold: "Any one who is HIV+ or has AIDS, and knowingly has unprotected sex with someone else should be jailed. Consent or no consent."

You say that you want people who are fully aware of the risks, but choose to have unsafe sex with the the partner they love to be jailed.

I can't think of a better example of hypocrisy, myself. I'm amazed... Usually people post such conflicting points in separate posts, rarely do I see them in the same one!

I generally really don't care about other peoples opinions. I'm generally of the belief that people have the right to be racist, or homophobic, socialist, communist, capitalist, republican, democrat, or Christian - and it's really none of my business.

I get upset though, when people get on their soap box about issues they don't really understand. Even though they often have some a grain of opinion they think is important, they often present arguments that are so absurd, it seems clear any semblence of rationality disapeared long ago.

I think that is whats going on here.

What's funny is that the issues you're trying to argue really aren't that explosive. Like I said earlier, the gay community knows full well it's got a problem with HIV. It certainly is not earth shattering for anyone to hear you proclaim it as such. It's not even an issue of "Political Correctness", it's as close to common knowledge as you can get!

The problem is that you wrap that simple notion in so much conspiracy, falsehood and vitriol, that a careful reader can't help but think you've flown the coop.

You would do much better to drop the vitriol, simply state your opinion, and make sure your facts are well researched.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[wmw999 2,148]

It looks like you want there to be no more HIV in the gay male community before anyone else is inconvenienced.

Ain't gonna happen that way. It's not like paying off your highest-interest card first before working on any of the others, or even like paying it off before you pay any but the minimum on the others. People problems aren't that simple.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[EBSB52 0]

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Man, I'm even more confused. Hell, I'll go even further. I'm ignorant!

First you say this: "What I find strange is that people feel like they can comment on my personal behavior like smoking habbits, or eating habbits. There are groups who do nothing but lobby to stop freedoms we have in this country because they deem them bad. ".

You complain about people who lobby to "stop freedoms".

Then, just a few paragraphs later, you say in bold: "Any one who is HIV+ or has AIDS, and knowingly has unprotected sex with someone else should be jailed. Consent or no consent."

You say that you want people who are fully aware of the risks, but choose to have unsafe sex with the the partner they love to be jailed.

I can't think of a better example of hypocrisy, myself. I'm amazed... Usually people post such conflicting points in separate posts, rarely do I see them in the same one!

I generally really don't care about other peoples opinions. I'm generally of the belief that people have the right to be racist, or homophobic, socialist, communist, capitalist, republican, democrat, or Christian - and it's really none of my business.

I get upset though, when people get on their soap box about issues they don't really understand. Even though they often have some a grain of opinion they think is important, they often present arguments that are so absurd, it seems clear any semblence of rationality disapeared long ago.

I think that is whats going on here.

What's funny is that the issues you're trying to argue really aren't that explosive. Like I said earlier, the gay community knows full well it's got a problem with HIV. It certainly is not earth shattering for anyone to hear you proclaim it as such. It's not even an issue of "Political Correctness", it's as close to common knowledge as you can get!

The problem is that you wrap that simple notion in so much conspiracy, falsehood and vitriol, that a careful reader can't help but think you've flown the coop.

You would do much better to drop the vitriol, simply state your opinion, and make sure your facts are well researched.

_Am

Not to Storm particularly, but most of the hype against gay AIDS isn't about concern for life, concern for tax enpenditures, or even concern for public safety, it's about designation and eventual legislation of morality. The same types of people use the concern tactic as a guise to conceal the true agenda against gay AIDS - to counter gay behavior. If this weren't true, they wouldn't be so vehement about stopping gay marriage. With that I don't think it's so much about marriage as it is against gay.