Gun Accidents

[billvon 2,402]

>Guns are simple to use: point and pull the trigger. A BASE jump out
>a building window is far more complicated to accomplish successfully.

With a static line rig? You fall out the window and the parachute opens. How complicated is that?

Once again, I think anyone who wants to own a gun (at least any sane law-abiding adult) should be able to buy one for whatever reason he wants to. People who list many reasons why owning guns makes one safer, to me, are akin to people who own an SUV and drive to work ten miles through LA traffic. They make up reasons why an SUV is a smarter choice than a Civic, but the reality is they just want an SUV. But that sounds selfish so they make up something that sounds better. If you want a gun, or a parachute, or an SUV, just buy the thing! You don't need to create a dozen reasons to justify your decision.

[kallend 1,632]

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brain keeps me out of situations where people come at me with knives. It's not hard, actually.

Not everyone has your brains. And guess what, some people LIVE in situations where they can't avoid it. You know those houses that drug dealers hang out in front of and where street muggings are common place? People live there. I guess if they would just become richer and smarter there wouldn't be an issue, right?

Right. I am 59 years old, make enough to live in a safe neighborhood, and have developed enough street smarts to keep out of trouble in the city. I have never needed, and forsee no need, that I will ever need a weapon for self defense until dementia makes it unsafe for me to have any weapons anyway.

I choose to jump out of airplanes, so I need a parachute. I choose not to put myself in situations where I need a gun for personal safety.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tunaplanet 0]

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I choose not to put myself in situations where I need a gun for personal safety.

You think because you don't put yourself in certain situations that a dangerous situation won't come to you?

Forty-two

[kallend 1,632]

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Life would suck very much indeed if you felt the need to keep firearms in your house, just in case you need it.

Life must suck very much indeed if you feel you need to wear a seat belt while driving, just in case you need it.

Life must suck very much indeed if you feel you need to maintain life insurance, just in case your loved ones need it.

But YOU keep telling us how much MORE dangerous cars are than guns. Of course we need seat belts to use such dangerous things.

And everyone dies eventually, your life insurance example is plain silly.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PhillyKev 0]

And again...some people don't have that choice. You always make a point of saying you support the 2nd amendment and don't oppose gun ownership, yet you participate in every thread on the topic to argue that they are unnecessary and dangerous. If you really believe that way, why the hell DON'T you support banning them.

[kallend 1,632]

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And again...some people don't have that choice. You always make a point of saying you support the 2nd amendment and don't oppose gun ownership, yet you participate in every thread on the topic to argue that they are unnecessary and dangerous. If you really believe that way, why the hell DON'T you support banning them.

Because I am against government intervention in the lives of individuals - period. Haven't you noticed that by now?

I happen to believe that MOST individuals who think they NEED guns are self-deluding, but that doesn't mean I wish to prevent them from owning guns.

Rather like people should be allowed to own SUVs and Ferraris, even if they don;t actually NEED them.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,632]

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I choose not to put myself in situations where I need a gun for personal safety.

You think because you don't put yourself in certain situations that a dangerous situation won't come to you?

I'm 59, and so far I've done a very good job of making sure it doesn't.

Now if one of my students goes postal over a grade and bursts into my office with a gun, what good will it do me if I have one in my drawer? Do you think she'll be kind enough to wait while I get it out and take off the safety so I can disarm her? Get real.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[christelsabine 1]

Guns are simple to use: point and pull the trigger. A BASE jump out a building window is far more complicated to accomplish successfully.
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Nonsens. For a beginner, it is extremely hard to use a gun, even hand gun of every kind.. I do not know what you use. Perhaps it's easier to use a machine gun.....

For what I am using, it needed quite a long and hard time of training on every single weapon to aim, what you call "point", pull the trigger (at first the "Stecher", I do not know in English ) and really to do a got shot w/o killing others beside me or shooting into my own knees



What's about the backstroke? Any untrained gun owner at first will have a lot of blue marks in his face, shoulder....
That will knock him out.

You simplify too much. Sounds dangerous. I would not like to meet someone untrained like that carrying a loaded weapon in his hands. I saw my hunting friend killing his own foot with a shotgun.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[craddock 0]

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I very specifically did NOT say anything about outlawing guns

I don't think I said you did? I did ask however

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So your rant is totally irrelevant.

Why it may have came across as a rant, It was actually a question. ?? So you do support the 2nd amendment (sorry I lost that in all your posts that seem to criticize gun ownership)

So let me ask you this. All of your lengthy debates on gun ownership is for what cause?

Are you actually trying to convince someone that owns a gun for self protection that they don't really need it?? Seems like an exercise in futility to me.

I'm lost.

Unless it is just a chance to spew sarcasm and be condescending. Then it all makes sense.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[kallend 1,632]

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I very specifically did NOT say anything about outlawing guns

I don't think I said you did? I did ask however

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So your rant is totally irrelevant.

Why it may have came across as a rant, It was actually a question. ?? So you do support the 2nd amendment (sorry I lost that in all your posts that seem to criticize gun ownership)

So let me ask you this. All of your lengthy debates on gun ownership is for what cause?

Are you actually trying to convince someone that owns a gun for self protection that they don't really need it?? Seems like an exercise in futility to me.

I'm lost.

Unless it is just a chance to spew sarcasm and be condescending. Then it all makes sense.

See here

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[craddock 0]

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Nonsens.....For what I am using, it needed quite a long and hard time of training on every single weapon to aim, what you call "point", pull the trigger (at first the "Stecher", I do not know in English ) and really to do a got shot w/o killing others beside me or shooting into my own knees

So you are using your learning curve to claim guns are not simple to use. Sounds like you could have used a better instructor. I have seen people struggle in various sports where don't have a competent instructor. Happens all the time and they usually just think what they are trying to do is harder than it actually is.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[craddock 0]

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If you want a gun, or a parachute, or an SUV, just buy the thing! You don't need to create a dozen reasons to justify your decision.

I agree, but you seem to feel the need to create dozens of posts to unjustify their decision.
If you have no problem with their guns, why argue with their reasons. You actually think you are going to change Dave, John's, or others views.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[christelsabine 1]

No. Of course not Curve..? I am hunting since more than 15 yrs. I am quite good in handling my weapons.

We have strict regulations in Germany. I follow them As I am a hunter with a license, I am allowed to own weapons. And train.

I do not want to kill my best friends only b/c of a lack in using weapons of every kind. Or just to kill my son when he's coming home late night/early morning, as I am scared it might be someone else....

And train.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[kallend 1,632]

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If you want a gun, or a parachute, or an SUV, just buy the thing! You don't need to create a dozen reasons to justify your decision.

I agree, but you seem to feel the need to create dozens of posts to unjustify their decision.
If you have no problem with their guns, why argue with their reasons. You actually think you are going to change Dave, John's, or others views.

That applies to just about every post on Speakers' Corner.

The forum rules don't forbid flogging dead horses.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

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Being prepared for life's emergencies does not mean that your life sucks. It's just prudent common sense.

Sort of like what I bought today. I bought a factory chopped down defense pump 12 gauge for Morgan (29 1/2" overall and 18" barrel)
Why?

Well, I'm not always going to be around when she's in the house. We've had crime in the area over the past few years and its easier to defend yourself in a home with a shotgun then a handgun.

All she has to do is keep the bedroom door locked when she goes to bed. If she hears something in the house, she picks up the phone and then the shotgun. Dial 911, work the action with the pump to chamber a round (a VERY scary sound if you're a perp in a house) and sit on the floor by the bathroom (blind spot for someone coming into the room).

Sure, the interior doors are hollow wood, so someone could come through it easy, but the only person that would come through means no good. She's on the phone to 911, if someone comes through all she has to have is the barrel pointed roughly towards the door and pull the trigger. And the problem should stop. If not, a quick pump and continue.

Do I live in fear? Nope. Do I worry about the love of my life when I'm not around, of course I do, I love her. Do I make sure she's wearing a seatbelt while driving in a car? Sure. Does she wear a helmet while riding on my motorcycle? Yup. Do I want to give her the best tools to protect herself in the house? Damn straight.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kelpdiver 2]

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Nonsens. For a beginner, it is extremely hard to use a gun, even hand gun of every kind.. I do not know what you use. Perhaps it's easier to use a machine gun.....

I taken nearly a dozen people, mostly Canadians, to the range to shoot for the first time. This would be for .22s, 9mms, and occasionally the .40, the .45 or the 357sig. 15 minutes of explanation on use and safety and we're good to go. No problems hitting the target 25ft away. It's not remotely that hard.

[TomAiello 25]

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But if someday there is a fire in his building, and he decides to try to use his rig to jump out the window rather than use his brain and flee the fire, then it might well do him more harm than good. The excuse "Hey, what if I have no choice and the flames are lapping at my back?" was engineered to give him a reason to keep the rig there - which is fine, as long as he doesn't actually use it to do something stupid.

Would you believe that I once considered starting a fire in a dumpster in a parking garage so that I could argue that I was only jumping off the building because I was panicked and trying to escape the fire?

With proper equipment, I'd take the 12 story exit...

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[billvon 2,402]

>I agree, but you seem to feel the need to create dozens of posts
>to unjustify their decision.

It's more fun than actually working!

>You actually think you are going to change Dave, John's, or others views.

Nope. If anyone posts here to change people's views, they are in the wrong forum. Just about everyone's opinions here are hopelessly ossified. But since I have to read these threads anyway, sometimes I post stuff about _my_ opinions - which people are free to ignore, as always.

[AndyMan 7]

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Life must suck very much indeed if you feel you need to wear a seat belt while driving, just in case you need it.

In 15 years of driving, I've needed my seatbelt a few times, and airbags once. Never my fault. Plus, countless times I've braked hard enough that my passengers used their seatbelts. Odds of using seatbelts in a lifetime of driving approaches 1.0. Sadly, serious car accidents are a fact of life, especially in the city.

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Life must suck very much indeed if you feel you need to maintain life insurance, just in case your loved ones need it.

In an average lifetime... it will end once. Odds of life insurance coming in handy is also 1.0 Dieing at some point most definately is a fact of life.

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Life must suck very much indeed if you feel you need to keep a fire extinguisher in your home, just in case you need it.

I've had 3 kitchen fires in my life. Odds of me needing finding a fire extinguisher handy approach 1.0.

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Life must suck very much indeed if you feel you need to lug around a reserve parachute, just in case you need it.

FAR's require a reserve. Many people jump from objects without one, so you don't "need to lug" one. Skydiving is a choice. Very few skydivers find themselves never needing one. Odds of using one in a long skydiving career approach 1.0.

whereas:

Odds of you requiring a gun in your home for self defence are next to zero. I've lived in some of the nations worst cities, Cleveland, and Chicago, plus Canada's worst: Toronto. Not only has my home never been invaded, it's never been burglarized at all. Once, we had a car stolen, but a gun wouldn't have helped because we discovered it long after the fact. Not only have I never been a victim of violent crime, neither have any of my family, nor any of my friends, I'll even go so far as to say none of my aquiantences (as far as I know). Even in Chicago, where I sometimes walk through Cabrini Green on the way to Blockbusters. Violent crime is at an alltime low in the industrialized world. It is an exception: clearly not the rule.

Never, has a handgun been necesary for my or my families defence.

It might give someone piece of mind, and that's fine. That said, if the odds of that person actually needing it to protect themselves or their family are real, then there's something very wrong with that lifestyle. They would do much better to change their lifestyle than buy a gun.

America is a country where you do not need to justify owning a gun. Don't try.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Jimbo 0]

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Right. I am 59 years old, make enough to live in a safe neighborhood, and have developed enough street smarts to keep out of trouble in the city. I have never needed, and forsee no need, that I will ever need a weapon for self defense until dementia makes it unsafe for me to have any weapons anyway.

I recall in the last year or so that we discussed a news story about a Chicagoian in a nice suburb who was arrested and possibly charged/indicted for using a gun to defend his home. He has the brains to live in a safe neighborhood (or not, since they don't allow guns. ), but he also had the good sense to know that one day he might need to defend his life against those wish to harm him. Knowing that, how is it that you can forsee no need that you will ever need a weapon for self defense? Is it simply short sightedness, or do you truely believe that it can't happen to you?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Jimbo 0]

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That said, if the odds of that person actually needing it to protect themselves or their family are real, then there's something very wrong with that lifestyle.

I think you've just insulted everyone who has, or more importantly could have or wished that they could have, at one time or another used a weapon to defend themselves. Nice job, Andy. Nice job.

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Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[jcd11235 0]

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I taken nearly a dozen people, mostly Canadians, to the range to shoot for the first time. This would be for .22s, 9mms, and occasionally the .40, the .45 or the 357sig. 15 minutes of explanation on use and safety and we're good to go. No problems hitting the target 25ft away. It's not remotely that hard.

Hitting stationary targets with a relatively low level of adrenaline is not the same as pointing a gun a another person, who is probably moving, and is believed to have hostile intentions, its gonna be a bit toughr to remember those fundamentals without extensive training of some sort, such that might provide the muscle memory or clarity of mind to deal with the situation.

I agree with AggieDave. A shotgun is unmatched in simplicity of use and intimidation factor.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[AggieDave 6]

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It might give someone piece of mind, and that's fine. That said, if the odds of that person actually needing it to protect themselves or their family are real, then there's something very wrong with that lifestyle.

Um, ok.

We've been over this before. I'm living in a low crime town, especially compared to Houston and Dallas, and by far lower crime then someplace like LA or Chicago.

I guess I should have told the perp that tried to rob me at an ATM a bit over a year ago that I don't live in a high crime area on purpose and I'm very careful of my surroundings and what I'm doing...that he shouldn't try to rob me and leave me alone.

Huh. I guess you're right Andy, there's NEVER any need to even attempt to defend yourself if you live right.


Good luck to you, living with your blinders on. I wonder if your lack of concern with defense will change if yall ever get pregnant.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,402]

>I guess I should have told the perp that tried to rob me at an
>ATM a bit over a year ago that I don't live in a high crime area . . .

No, you should have driven away. A truck is a far better defensive weapon than a gun. It's like the old AFF saying - use your superior judgement so you don't need to rely on your superior flying skills (or marksmanship skills.)

[kelpdiver 2]

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Hitting stationary targets with a relatively low level of adrenaline is not the same as pointing a gun a another person, who is probably moving, and is believed to have hostile intentions, its gonna be a bit toughr to remember those fundamentals without extensive training of some sort, such that might provide the muscle memory or clarity of mind to deal with the situation.

sure, more than 15 minutes of training might be in order. But the person said the mere use of a handgun was extremely hard.