Mandatory Birth Control

[Treejumps 0]

Well the election is over but the biggest problem in America is not going away, and it really was not addressed. All of the politics in this country focus on the symptoms of our biggest problem, not the root cause. Nearly every major issue in this country can be attributed to stupid people who are unable to even take care of themselves, reproducing. They reproduce at a rate far higher than educated people who can properly raise and support their offspring. Crime, welfare, health care costs, you name it, and it is caused in whole, or at least partially by this constantly renewable problem.

Fortunately, the solution is simple. If you are supported by the government through welfare, man or women, you must be Norplanted, or whatever other BC can be used to guarantee you can't reproduce. It will take a few years but the cost savings both in social and financial terms would be staggering. Think how many babies are created each year with only the government to take care of them. Think of what happens to these kids; they are almost always poorly rasied, far more likely to become criminals, they suck up gov't services and resources (your tax dollars) at an alarming rate, and then, to top it all off, in 15 or so year they create more of the same. When will we take a stand and really address this problem?

Everything else is just a symptom of this problem. This is my platform for my presidential run in 08'. Please support the ONLY solution.

Thank you.

[Falko 0]

You would have been a good ramp doctor in a concentration camp. Pure fascism!

Heil Treejump!

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[pajarito 0]

Wow...

Surely you don't believe that.

[miked10270 0]

Ausgezeichnet. Das ist die einzige vernünftige Lösung. Viel Glueck.

Errichten Sie auch einiges "Arbeit Macht frei" Lager.

Sorry..... Brief ancestral flashback there. Err.... Best of luck in your presidential bid. "Unfortunately", I can't vote.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[PhillyKev 0]

Yeah, he does. And why while you and I may agree on a number of issues, and come close on others, the radical right wing agenda is truly terrifying.

[pccoder 0]

It's too late for that, the election has shown us that too many dumb people have already been breeding. According to the "Daily Mirror", a London Publication...

"How can 59 million people be so DUMB?"

PcCoder.net

[Tonto 1]

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Please support the ONLY solution.

Your idea is not new. It gained favour among those in power in Germany in 1933. In addition to those on welfare you metioned, they broadened the scope to cripples, retards and Jews.

They refered to it as The FINAL solution.

Your choice of words is interesting.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Falko 0]

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Your choice of words is interesting.

Yes it is, I'm pretty sure if I would take the time to translate them they would match 100% with numerous speeches of Adolf Hitler.

Some people will never learn.

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[pajarito 0]

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Yeah, he does. And why while you and I may agree on a number of issues, and come close on others, the radical right wing agenda is truly terrifying.

That is pretty radical. My wife sees a lot of underage impoverished people in her OB/GYN clinic having babies that won't be cared for properly. It makes you really wish they'd just take birth control and not put themselves in that situation. Especially since many of them had sex just for drugs or money and not because they really wanted a baby. However, just because you're poor doesn't mean you don't have the right to reproduce. There are plenty of people out there who truly need welfare and aren’t taking advantage of it that have every right to carry on their family line. Even if they are taking advantage of the system, I can’t see restricting them in this radical manner. Procreation is most definitely a basic human right. The view that they don’t is a very scary concept to me.

Note: My Grandparents grew up in very poor but very hard working farming families. My Parents grew up where they had to save every penny and also work very hard to survive. I'm glad they had me and my sister. I now have opportunities that they never had.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Nice on, Tree!

[justaflygirl 0]

I agree with you, my hubby's first wife is one of those welfare sucking, not willing to work baby factories. Fortunately for the oldest two, we have custody of him and the other father has custody of the other boy, but there are still two left and their father is as big of a piece of wasted shit as their mother. I feel really sorry for the kids, they didnt choose this. Texas was supposed to "mandatorily" give her a tubal after this last one, but she found someway out of it., I strongly agree, that after the first baby is born to a less than capable mother or couple that she should be kept on some kind of birth control, at least until they can figure life out and prove that they can provide a decent home for the child they already have....just my 2 cents...

[crozby 0]

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They reproduce at a rate far higher than educated people who can properly raise and support their offspring.

Maybe Evolution favours these people?
Whilst I completely disagree with what you say, it is an interesting problem:

Recently in the UK it was revealed that one family in which neither the husband or wife chose to work were receiving £45,000 ($83,000) in benefits from the UK government because they had 8 children.

I don't agree with sterilisation but it fucks me off that my government forces me to support useless tossers like that.

[quade 3]

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You would have been a good ramp doctor in a concentration camp. Pure fascism!

Heil Treejump!

Not everybody studies history as well as they probably ought to.

I'm not talking about exact dates and things, but the larger concepts.

My -guess- is that Treejumps has, at one point or another, heard this basic concept but it didn't really sink in as to what the full ramifications would be, could be or in fact were.

I have a feeling this strikes pretty close to you and while I also oppose the idea I will defend his right to speak his mind just as I will defend YOUR right to speak your mind as long as you stay inside the rules of this Forum.

Attack the post and not the poster.

You are more than welcome to tell him why his idea is bad.
You are NOT welcome to call him names.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[winsor 186]

Spaying strays is considered humane except when applied to the human species.

There have been cases where receipt of Welfare has been dependent upon giving up the capacity to reproduce further, and I believe there is at least one class-action suit in the works as a result.

The suggestion that receipt of AFDC or other similar funds be contingent upon undergoing reversible sterilization would seem a realistic approach on face value. If, during one's fertile years, the individual has achieved sufficient liquidity to pay for reversal (should they so desire), they are quite capable of further reproduction.

This, however, immediately has people concerned about the slippery slope toward a "Final Solution" scenario - perhaps rightly so.

The Third Reich gave Eugenics a rather bad name. Given the rather horrific excesses that accompanied their policies, that is hardly surprising.

The propensity for people of insufficient means to reproduce is a problem, but I am fearful of anything that claims to be a solution. Having bureaucratic dunderheads making any more life-affecting decisions than they already do is not an option.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[mr2mk1g 10]

I believe China used to achieve a middle ground by providing benefits for couples with one child which were then cut were they to have a second.

Might instigate a degree of hardship but it's not exactly meddling with people's rights - just the privileges they're given.

I'm not sure if China's now moved to a somewhat more draconian measure of actually licensing childbirth.

[Remster 24]

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I believe China used to achieve a middle ground by providing benefits for couples with one child which were then cut were they to have a second.

That was a very succesfull program.


Except for the dead baby girls drowned when they were the 1st born.

Remster

[nacmacfeegle 0]

And from what I gather from a few radio programmes recently, they also have an acute labour shortage.

Who'd a thunkit?

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Falko 0]

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You are more than welcome to tell him why his idea is bad.

I did. I called it "Pure Fascism". Two words, enough for me.
I didn't feel like going into a deeper discussion why fascism and "selection" in this manner is bad, because it's obvious. History has proven it.
It's an endless discussion that has been going for ages and the people promoting that kind of ideology cannot be converted (in most cases) with arguments about "equality of all people", "human dignity" etc because they just don't acknowledge these concepts in the first place.
So I found it sufficient to just protest with a one-liner that says it all.

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You are NOT welcome to call him names.

Where did I call him names? Can't see where.
As the only noun in my post was "ramp doctor" I suppose you mean that?

Well a "ramp doctor" is someone who decided whether people are worth of living & procreating, or if they are a burden to society and therefore not worthy and doomed.
That's the exact concept that Treejump promotes.

I just wrapped it up.
No curse words involved!

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[Rebecca 0]

Interesting... I agree with you....how to word this...

Pajarito is correct that reproduction is a fundamental human right, one which each individual should have complete control over.

However, a welfare system that at worst incentivizes already impoverished people to keep churning out babies, making them our responsibility, and at best does nothing to encourage birth control seems pretty flawed to me.

Here's my question: Is welfare a right? Should it be a no-strings attached monthly check, increasing every time another mouth comes to the table?

Why couldn't it come with free - not mandatory - birth control? Would it even be possible to somehow reward welfare recipients to NOT have more children? (I'm not talking about stopping reproduction, but making it more beneficial to stop at, say one or two kids as opposed to twelve.)

This isn't about a naziesque "final solution" - no sterilization, no discrimination - it's about personal responsibility. Have a kid or two, work hard to support them, we'll help you out. Have twelve kids, do nothing to shut your legs or wrap your wrascal, and expect me to pay? Um, no.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[Treejumps 0]

I think that preventing births who will be supported only by the gov't (me, and other tax paying citiznes) is a far cry from exterminating an entire faith of people. In fact, I don't see any similarites. I am not singleing out any group based on anything other than their inablity to support themselves, and hence, their complete inablitly to raise, pay for, feed, and educate another. Frankly, how does one have anything to do with another, other than because you brought it up to distract others from seeing the proposal and problem for what it really is.

This is not race based, an in fact it is completely color blind. If you get a welfare check, you are not allowed to make another welfare sucking human being. Simple. If you can't pay for your offspring, you should not be allowed to reproduce. Thre is nothing that says you have the right to reproduce at the expense of others. Why should stupid people be encouraged to reproduce? Anything you subsidize, you will get more of. Let Darwin have his way. If people who are too dumb or too lazy to pay for their own way, so be it, but don't pay them to create more of the same.

This is the only way the US is ever going to be sustainable in the long run. At the rate we are running in 50 years there will be 3 welfare recipients for every working stiff to support. DO you want to pay for 3 people to sit around and do nothing but crete more people for your children to support?

I am completely serious becasue the problem is completely serious. If we don't stop createing more of the problem now, treating the symptoms in the future is going to overwhelm us. When that happens, there will be all out socio-economic war, where the people who work are going to refuse to support the welfare nation, and then what? This is not an if, but a when.

Do any of you have a better idea?

[quade 3]

Just reiterating the ground rules of the forum.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[favaks 0]

I agree with you Tree. People's right to reproduce is not taken away, but with rights come responsibility. If you are going to rely on the government for help, the government gets to make the decision. Same thing with health care. We will help you when you get sick, but you need to do your best to stay healthy, i.e. exercise, eat healthy. It's that simple. The health care problem in this country can be solved if people would just get off thier butt and stay healthy. Sorry, can't have your cake and eat t too.

favaks

[crozby 0]

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Why couldn't it come with free - not mandatory - birth control?
...
Have twelve kids, do nothing to shut your legs or wrap your wrascal, and expect me to pay? Um, no.

The problem for governments is what they do with citizens who refuse to play by the rules and continue to have children that they cannot support.

Do the kids get left to starve? Do they get taken away at more cost to the tax payer? What happens?

[peregrinerose 0]

I think that the only people who deserve mandatory birth control are those who have had their children removed from their care due to neglect, abuse, or other issues. They should not have the right under any circumstances to produce another human punching bag.

I agree that welfare encourages people to have litters of children. Benefits (checks written to parents, not health care benefits) should be cut for each child born after initially enrolling in welfare rather than increasing them, but ONLY if free birth control of the parents' choice is available at no charge to make this a feasable option.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[quade 3]

Time for me to weigh in . . .

The government has NO business in the bedroom.

The government may have an interest in promoting birth control, it has no business whatsoever mandating to people that they may or may not reproduce at whatever point in time they choose to do so.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver