ChileRelleno 0 #51 November 4, 2004 Quoteare you planning on providing day care for those kids while their parents "get educated?" Baby sitters and day care are damn expensive. I don't know many students who could afford it, myself included, if I had kids. If I had kids, I certainly wouldn't be in law school without a lot of support, which is something many people don't have. Yes I am. The cost would be less than paying out welfare for them and the child in the long run. They must get a job of some sort, their children will not need daycare forever, the parents (anybody) if ablebodied must work and support their families!!! If you cannot support a child without government help, then you have "NO" business having a child!!! I'm sick and tired of paying others to be selfish, inconsiderate, lazy, and irresponsible. I'm tired of paying out SSI to drug/alcohol addicts, to illegal/legal immregrants!!! Do you know we're actually sending SSI checks to people in Mexico!!!! You look at it as responsible citizen, your not going to go get knocked up and screw up your life, your not looking for the welfare $buck$. Some of these folks actually have babies to get more money!!! They don't care... Uncle Sugar will pay the bills, put food on the table and cover medical exspenses... While you and I foot the bill. This cannot go on forever. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #52 November 4, 2004 QuoteI think that preventing births who will be supported only by the gov't (me, and other tax paying citiznes) is a far cry from exterminating an entire faith of people. In fact, I don't see any similarites. Be careful what you say. Someday you may need some assistance from the government at the expense of our tax dollars. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #53 November 4, 2004 If I were king, people wouldn't be allowed to reproduce until they had either granduated from college or passed an equivalent examination that proved not that they were geniuses, but that they weren't f*in' Stoopid. mh . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #54 November 4, 2004 Amazingly, I agree with Quade and not Treejumps. Yet my agreement leads to the scope I think Treejumps was aiming for. I think the government has no business in the bedroom. However, the dillema occurs when the government choose to humanely support people who were produced via acts in that private bedroom. I am a very big fan of Adam Smith and Laissez-Faire theory. Pure supply and demand works in an almost amazing fashion. The problem is that with huge amounts of people, 'we' have modified and subsidized supply and demand to the point of a system with near incalculable inputs. As human nature is at a base level oriented toward preservation, if it was self inhibiting to have children, most people selfish people would not have them. Therefore, don't mandate birth control, simply don't subsidize indescretion. Now that is great in a closed system. Would it work in America? A few questions should be answered: How many people would in an amatuer from terminate pregnancies? Does it matter? Would they take BC if it were available? Would the American people support taking away benefits that are perceived as humane? They are difficult questions. In practicallity, western civilation has risen to a level of existence, where we are beyond survival and we ponder questions like this. When the shit is bad, people just want to survive, they don't care about environment, welfare, etc. Ancient history shows this. We are past that. Along with it comes tough questions and responsiblity. The compassionate answers are not always the ones that solve problems. Nor are the 'right' answers always practically applicable.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #55 November 4, 2004 QuoteYes I am. The cost would be less than paying out welfare for them and the child in the long run. Average yearly child care costs = $7020/child http://www.careerjournal.com/columnists/workfamily/20041022-workfamily.html Average yearly AFDC benefit per child as of 1996 = $1,620. http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/AFDC/baseline/5benefits.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #56 November 4, 2004 Its gonna happen, some people will be poor and some will be rich, most will be inbetween. Is it fair that the poor will have to scrape and scratch to get by... No, but life aint fair. Lots of people have hauled themselves out of poverty and made a better life for themselves and their families, I'm proudly one of'emI was basically unskilled for most jobs a very short time ago, I was single at just above poverty level, but I'd been working and making a go of it (even had enough disposeable income to learn to skydive), I'd been paying my meager share of taxes so when I got married and was having job/money (got laidoff a $7.hr job)problems, I went looking for work at the unemployment office. There I learned about free job training courtesy of JTPA (Job Training Patnership Act), They trained me and even gave me a small living exspense on top of my Unemployment payments. I'm now a trained professional driver (longhaul trucker) pulling down in excess of $40,000.00 per year. There are no exscuses for a ablebodied person not to support their families. I don't want welfare, but I will take help. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #57 November 4, 2004 QuoteIf you cannot support a child without government help, then you have "NO" business having a child!!! If you cannot control the flow of traffic on city streets without gov't help, then you have no business driving a car. If you cannot prevent crime, track down and incarcerate criminals without gov't help, then you have no business calling the police. EVERYONE receives gov't benefits as a result of taxation. Unless you want to create some kind of massive beuracracy that tracks every gov't service that every person uses every day and bills them directly for it, then you have no legitimate right to dictate to others how they live their life, especially regarding their personal family matters because it might cause a tax burden. Sure, make efforst to reduce the tax burden on everyone through public policy. But don't force your personal agenda on individuals because that person is using a tax benefit that you don't while you use some that they don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #58 November 4, 2004 QuoteI went looking for work at the unemployment office. There I learned about free job training courtesy of JTPA (Job Training Patnership Act), They trained me and even gave me a small living exspense on top of my Unemployment payments. I've never gotten free training or collected unemployment. Why the hell should I subsidize your inability to pay for your own education? What gives you the right to use my tax money? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #59 November 4, 2004 Let's clarify a couple of misunderstandings about this. First, whenever a dude knocks up a welfare queen, if she asks for welfare benefits for the kid, the welfare department is gonna want a name. Then the department goes after pops to pay what he can afford. So, the dudes end up frontnig a bit of this money, too. If they don't pay, they go to the can. Of course, this says nothing about the societal structure which looks forward to getting knocked up, sitting on your ass, and making more. Nice income, you know. What's my big problem? All the able bodied persons on disability and workers' comp. They are everywhere, people. This needs to be reformed greatly, which is already happening here in Cali. "Over 5,000 years ago, Moses said to the children of Israel, "Pick up your shovels, mount your asses and camels, and I will lead you to the Promised Land." Nearly 5,000 years later, Roosevelt said, "Lay down your shovels, sit on your asses, and light up a Camel; this is the Promised Land!"" Well, enough of the sitting on the asses... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base311 0 #60 November 4, 2004 Jesus Christ Tree when did you turn into a fascist? Now that you're manufacturing BASE rigs, maybe you can use this attachment as your company logo. Gardner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #61 November 4, 2004 QuoteI've never gotten free training or collected unemployment. Why the hell should I subsidize your inability to pay for your own education? What gives you the right to use my tax money? You can see the difference between society subsidising a citizen who wants to contribute to the society, and society subsidising a citizen who doesn't, can't you? All your posts address the former, but there are a significant number of the latter. How do you deal with them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #62 November 4, 2004 QuoteYou can see the difference between society subsidising a citizen who wants to contribute to the society, and society subsidising a citizen who doesn't, can't you? All your posts address the former, but there are a significant number of the latter. How do you deal with them? I addressed that further up. By educating children so that don't grow up without any job skills. By insuring liveable wages even for menial jobs that would be all that some people are qualified to do. By stopping the destructive war on drugs that ravishes the poor communities. For starters. Forced sterilization is not an option for a civilized, humane society. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #63 November 4, 2004 Hmmm, lets see, four years or less of school or even much less for job training, room-n-board payments till their on their feet, daycare for the non-schoolage children vs a lifetime of taxpayer exspense welfare/medical ect programs. Then when they're productive members of society, their productivty/taxes will help to raise more from this morass in which they've fallen or willingly waded into. Just for yucks and using aprox $'s lets figure we take care of the family and educate/train the head of house for four (4) years. $7000 x 4 = $28,000 daycare $1000 per mnth x 12 x 4 = $48000 Food/shelter $8000per yr x 4 = $32000 School/training thats $108,000.00 for 4 years Welfare/medical for 18+ years $1000permnth x 12 x 18 = $216,000.00 $108,000.00 vs $216,000.00 Thats a savings of $108,000.00 and we know have(hopefully) a responsible/productive family who are more liable to have responsible/productive children. Now granted Uncle Sugar would find some way to screw it up, but I'm willing to empower people not just give them handouts. Just as I empowered and helped. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #64 November 4, 2004 *** If you knew a woman who had a total of 8 children, several who had died shortly after birth, and she had tuberculosis, would you mandate she take birth control? And this has what to do with the topic at hand? If she were on welfare, and I (the working taxpayers) had to support her, then YES. But I still don't understand what her previous births and sore throat have to do with it. Stick to the topic, or at least quit trying to draw out sympathy for one set of issues to cloud the validity of another. Is that a lawyers trick they taught you in lawschool? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falko 0 #65 November 4, 2004 Just for the majority here who doesn't speak german: "Abteilung der Heimatsicherheit" translates "Department of Homeland Security". I bite my tongue eeeh fingers and don't comment on that. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #66 November 4, 2004 Nice logo Gardner! Instead of the Huck-It, WEll call it the Fucl-It! Do I have to pay to use that logo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #67 November 4, 2004 Quote$1000 per mnth x 12 x 4 = $48000 Food/shelter Are you giving them a cardboard box and cat food? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #68 November 4, 2004 More outstanding posts by both Winsor and Rebecca. While a person might have a right to procreate, in my opinion they MUST be responsible for the upkeep of those offspring. Have as many as you like so long as you can afford it, but please don't make me loathe you because I am having to pay for your "right." It is simply not my responsibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #69 November 4, 2004 Quote Be careful what you say. Someday you may need some assistance from the government at the expense of our tax dollars. This direction is slightly off topic, but you know what Chris? I have paid into my social security for over 23 years now and as such have fulfilled my obligation to that system. If I become disabled I would damn well expect that system to assist me. Those, on the other hand, who have not fulfilled their minimum quota in that system should not "expect" such help without thinking they are obligated to the government (actually the taxpayers). Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #70 November 4, 2004 QuoteI've never gotten free training or collected unemployment. Why the hell should I subsidize your inability to pay for your own education? What gives you the right to use my tax money? I'd been working since age fifteen and paying my share of taxes/SSI ect, I'd never before used the systems to which I'd contributed. So as a taxpayer, as a ablebodied citizen who did not want to suck off the government tit for years, I used programs my own labors helped fund! I'm not a leech and I'm more productive than ever before and my tax bracket has changed to reflect that, so you could say I paid back my education... Your tax money is there to help people, but alot of these folks aren't interested in your help or helping themselves and thus society, they just want your money, your tax dollars for nothing in return. I was a return investment on "OUR" tax dollars. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #71 November 4, 2004 QuoteIf you knew a woman who had a total of 8 children, several who had died shortly after birth, and she had tuberculosis, would you mandate she take birth control? If so, you may have prevented the birth of Beethoven. Not relavent to the subject at hand as Beethoven's mama wasn't on welfare....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #72 November 4, 2004 If you want to solve a problem you got to nip it in the bud. This isn't personal, it is financial. If the gov't will pay for stupid people to sit around, fuck, and create more of the same, why won't they pay me to smoke crack and push it on my friends so that they in turn will sit aorund and do nothing but smoke crack. I believe in everyone's freedom to do anything that they want to, so long as they can pay for it. Simply reproducing might be a god given right, but supporting that kid should be part of the equation. If you are so stupid, lazy and/or useless that you cannot support yourself, and the kid, you have no right to have a kid. Its very simple. If you are on welfare and cannot support yourself, you cannot support (or properly raise or educate) a child. A simple look at the inner city of every major city in the US, or the bumfuck sticks of wherever is all the proof we need. There are plenty of people having children who can pay there own way, why should they have to pay for themselves and others who cannot? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #73 November 4, 2004 Quote So, the dudes end up frontnig a bit of this money, too. If they don't pay, they go to the can. And they don't belong in prison, prison is for those who are threats to society. Could you call their irresponsible reproduction a threat to society? Yes and No. But they don't belong there, they need to working and payiong their share directly or indirectly to their offspring. If they won't work then let'em starve, starvation is a great motivator. QuoteWhat's my big problem? All the able bodied persons on disability and workers' comp. They are everywhere, people. This needs to be reformed greatly, which is already happening here in Cali. We need more, faster and on a larger scale. Quote"Over 5,000 years ago, Moses said to the children of Israel, "Pick up your shovels, mount your asses and camels, and I will lead you to the Promised Land." AMEN! QuoteNearly 5,000 years later, Roosevelt said, "Lay down your shovels, sit on your asses, and light up a Camel; this is the Promised Land!"" Chile bites tongue before going off on a rant about liberal socialism. Well, enough of the sitting on the asses... ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #74 November 4, 2004 I've been working since age 12. When I was 24 and working as a part time carpenter I got student loans and went to school part time while I worked as a dishwasher, at a gas station, and stuffing envelopes on an assembly line. I ask again, why should I have to pay for your education and unemployment? QuoteI was a return investment on "OUR" tax dollars That's good, and to be honest, I'm not complaining about you receiving that help. I'm glad the system existed to help you. I just don't see where you get off drawing a line below where you need help to cut off others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #75 November 4, 2004 Quotewhy won't they pay me to smoke crack and push it on my friends so that they in turn will sit aorund and do nothing but smoke crack. OH! But they will... Just get yourself medically classified as addict and SSI will send you money since you sooo disabled by addiction as not to be able to work/hold a job. I'm going on over 9 years of total sobriety, I am a Alcoholic/Addict. I was a functioning addict. The whole point is I changed, these leeches do not want to change, they just want to continue sucking. We cannot allow this!!! ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
