billvon 2,426 #51 July 2, 2004 >I am one of those hopeful sorts that looks for agreement between >faith and science such as the classic example: I just see them as two different things. The bible is a moral code to live by; science is how we explain how the world works. The bible is not a science book or a history book, and my microbiology textbook is not a guide on how to live my life. They are two separate things. This is good, since "having faith" is the opposite of what a scientist must do - he must discard a theory, even if he loves it, if evidence shows it to be false. I have no problem at all with scientists who believe in god; Einstein did. However, when people try to squeeze science to fit into their faith (as in the classic "well, maybe when the bible says a day it really means a billion years") then they are trying to fit science into a box that was never intended to hold it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #52 July 2, 2004 Quoteits not science if you start with a conclusion and look for evidence to support it.Quote Your statement is true, but I don't think every evolution discounter out there is using that model. Different groups can analyze evidence and come up with different results. The question then becomes: who is doing the analysis objectively, and who is not? . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #53 July 2, 2004 Arguing with these two in particular is like running around in circles all day long and not accomplishing anything. ”They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.” Ephesians 4:18 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #54 July 2, 2004 QuoteArguing with these two in particular is like running around in circles all day long and not accomplishing anything. LOL, yep. If it continues, do you mind if I just cut and paste your previous posts in as needed? I normally don't have the time, apptitude, or inclination to engage in these mega-arguments. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #55 July 2, 2004 QuoteI just see them as two different things. Very nicely stated Bill. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #56 July 2, 2004 QuoteI normally don't have the time, apptitude, or inclination to engage in these mega-arguments. Sure. The same old things do tend to come around over and over again. Better check me for accuracy, though. I'm not an expert either. Just hard-headed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gjhdiver 0 #57 July 2, 2004 QuoteArguing with these two in particular is like running around in circles all day long and not accomplishing anything. This is true. Arguing with religious types about about the stone certainties of science versus superstition, is like teaching a pig to sing. It just annoys you, and aggravates the pig. The only time I bother these days, is when they try to entact their particular superstition into public policy. Other than that, they are free to believe what they want. It's no skin off my nose. The poll here suggests that atheism/agnosticism is rapidly increasing, another indication of the social evolution of the species I think. I believe I'll have another drink as they say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,257 #58 July 2, 2004 QuoteThe bible is not a science book or a history book, and my microbiology textbook is not a guide on how to live my life. Surely the difference is that the microbiology textbook doesn't claim to be a moral guide.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #59 July 2, 2004 QuoteArguing with these two in particular is like running around in circles all day long and not accomplishing anything. ”They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.” Ephesians 4:18 ah yes, quoting your ‘scripture’ as if it is proof or evidence of anything more than your reliance on others to reach God…. my mind is light, my heart soft, and my relationship with the divine has always been secure, no matter what your divisive dogma might claim...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #60 July 2, 2004 Happy 4th of July! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #61 July 2, 2004 QuoteHappy 4th of July! indeed be safe!____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bch7773 0 #62 July 3, 2004 I'm actually lutheran, the first REAL protestant religion. (angelican doesn't count because king henry made it just to divorce his wife) I'm also a little agnostic. the only thing that makes me agnostic is the fact that scientists studying the brain, have discovered that there is a "god section". whenever people start praying or have a religious moment, its that part of the brain acting up. now is that god making the brain do that, or is it the brain making up god? I mean, look at all the societies around the earth... the vast majority of them had a god or gods... why is that? its because part of the human mind has to attribute the unexplainable (like lightning) to something... and that something is a god figure. from that, the society builds up their religion. we laugh at some religions, but who are we to say which one is right? or maybe none of us are right. and don't give me that "you must have faith" as a valid response... its a cop-out MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GravityGirl 0 #63 July 3, 2004 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for objection to the Wiccan rede, what's wrong with it ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It doesn't prompt people to learn, grow, get better, or anything of the sort. It just prods us to seek pleasure, or "do our own thing". Inadequate, presuming you expect to exist forever. Where do you get that idea? The Wicca Way encourages self understanding and growth, as well as communal living, healing ourselves and the environment. I consider myself non-denominational, but lean toward the Wiccan Religion to express my spirituality. After my father died, my mother remarried. She married a Catholic Priest. Well. He had to leave the Preisthood to marry her and her 5 children. The man is a Genius and a Saint, in my opinion. He studied his own religion devoutly since entering the seminary at the age of 13. He also has his Masters Degree in Theology. As well as many other Masters Degrees for that matter. He wrote a University Text Book entitled "Religions of the Orient". I had the luxury of growing up with a man who had the answers to ANY religious question I could pose. I used to love it when various religious organizations would come calling at our door. The one thing that makes my Father different than most of humankind is his LACK of self-righteousness. For all his lifetime efforts to know and understand humans and their pursuit of faith, religion and understanding he still concludes that mere mortals do not have the devine answer. So one man cannot judge another for what neither truely understands. Not the religious. Not the Atheist. Not the Agnostic. To persue your questions and desire for understanding without casting judgement upon others in their own quest is one step toward enlightenment. So. Can you guess which two buttons, I clicked? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #64 July 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteIt doesn't prompt people to learn, grow, get better, or anything of the sort. It just prods us to seek pleasure, or "do our own thing". Inadequate, presuming you expect to exist forever. Where do you get that idea? The Wicca Way encourages self understanding and growth, as well as communal living, healing ourselves and the environment. I don't know much about the Wicca Way; my comment was in response to a single quote: "Be it harm none, do what thou wilst shall be the whole of the law" QuoteTo persue your questions and desire for understanding without casting judgement upon others in their own quest is one step toward enlightenment. So. Can you guess which two buttons, I clicked? Yes. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #65 July 3, 2004 not to reply to thisperson,just thelast onein the thread. anyway, I wasin a bar, andsaidthat Iam a Christian, and I am also a scientist. I do research on resistant forms of HIV-AIDS. I figure that is a pretty good profession,as professions go. So why did this guy in the bar ask me, "how can a scientist be a christian?" shit, I go to church most sundays, and I have accepted Christ as my savior. I have a job, like anyone else. Ifeel that my explorations as ascientist have INCREASED my faith in God, not decreased it. The world that God created is beautiful and complex, andit isclear that Godwanted us to explore it. So why are there people out there that think my professional lifeasa scientist compromises my spirituallife asa Christian, when I think it INCREASES my spiritual life. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,426 #66 July 3, 2004 >Surely the difference is that the microbiology textbook doesn't claim >to be a moral guide. Agreed, but some might choose to interpret that way. People often pray at odd altars; here in the US, Hollywood fame and money are certainly two of them. I know some people who base a large part of their morality on economic theory; good = economic gain. Other people use fame as a measure of moral worth, and place great importance on what famous actors say about their morality (or what they do.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PeteH 0 #67 July 3, 2004 I'm individualist. Quote If there is one "religious" tenet to live by, then it's the Wiccan rede. "Be it harm none, do what thou wilst shall be the whole of the law" Pretty much sums it all up don't you think ? The ending should be "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". It's taken from Aleister Crowley's The Book Of The Law and it's one of the most misused lines ever. However I don't believe there's a True Will, so "do what you want" is my way to go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PeteH 0 #68 July 3, 2004 Quote Evolution is proved beyond any reasonable doubt, to all execpt those that would use "faith' to deny iy. Actually there's no proof of that we are here 'cos of evolution. You can't prove it. In all science, except math, you can only prove theories wrong, but you can't prove 'em right. God created us -theory will last as long as mankind, 'cos it's impossible to prove it wrong. Even if we could create life and would be able to humans by evolution in lab, that wouldn't prove that some god didn't create us. Of course I agree that evolution theory supports the evidence quite well, and it's the best theory we have now. But it's still only theory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #69 July 3, 2004 QuoteSo why are there people out there that think my professional lifeasa scientist compromises my spirituallife asa Christian, when I think it INCREASES my spiritual life. Non-Christians incorrectly stereotype Christians as ignorant, blind followers of dead mythology. That doesn't fit very well with the attributes of a scientist. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,426 #70 July 3, 2004 >So why did this guy in the bar ask me, "how can a scientist be a christian?" I think because some (few, fortunately) christians take the bible as a science book, and thus disregard science in favor of mythology. However, I think the great majority of christians can both believe in their version of god and do good science. The two are not exclusive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gjhdiver 0 #71 July 6, 2004 QuoteI'm individualist. Quote If there is one "religious" tenet to live by, then it's the Wiccan rede. "Be it harm none, do what thou wilst shall be the whole of the law" Pretty much sums it all up don't you think ? The ending should be "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". It's taken from Aleister Crowley's The Book Of The Law and it's one of the most misused lines ever. . And he was one of the buggers who misused it. Crowley misapropriated it from earlier Wiccan and pagan texts to use it. He used it without the original qualifier, "Be it harm none". The phrase itself goes back before the Ordo Templis Orientis, and has been a staple of the Wiccan and pagan ways for longer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 144 #72 July 6, 2004 definition of a theory is "a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"" As evolution is a THEORY I believe that people should be aware of that and not treat it is as a scientific LAW. It amazes me how much "religous" belief people place in evolution. Scientists are happy to research gravity,electromagnetics and try and prove the current theories wrong (because they have holes in them - hence string theory etc) - however they only try and prove evolution right - that is not scientific method as it is meant to be applied. I personally don't buy into evolution and believe that we should be looking for alternative explainations. Beyond mutation - evolution has not been proven. I don't take the bible Genesis explaination at face value either so I am not coming from a religous angle here.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,426 #73 July 6, 2004 >A definition of a theory is "a tentative theory about the natural world; a >concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts >or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing > becomes a scientific theory"" Relativity is a theory. Yet if you design a GPS satellite and do not take relativisitic time contraction into account, your satellite will not work very well. Evolution is a theory. Yet if you do not believe that bacteria can evolve drug resistance, your public health policies could kill thousands. That's why it's not just a theoretical argument. If you are a doctor working on public health policy and you don't believe in evolution, people may die. That's serious. If you are a liberal arts major, believe whatever you want - it doesn't matter. But if someone is going to decide policies that could affect me, my family and friends, they better base their policies on real science rather than mythology. >Scientists are happy to research gravity,electromagnetics and try and >prove the current theories wrong (because they have holes in them - >hence string theory etc) - however they only try and prove evolution right - >that is not scientific method as it is meant to be applied. Exactly! And that is exactly why faith has no place in science. If you try to bend science to conform to the bible, you'll quickly reach dead ends. Science has no respect for a 4000 year old book. Now, you can _have_ faith and be a good scientist, as long as you don't think that (for example) bacteria evolve because God said so. Most religious scientists I know are able to make the distinction between science and faith. >I personally don't buy into evolution and believe that we should be >looking for alternative explainations. Beyond mutation - evolution has > not been proven. Well, we can force bacteria to evolve drug resistance. We can force-evolve food crops by the simple means of hybridizing thousands of different strains, growing millions of plants, then killing off all but a few that has the characteristics we want. Thus we force plants to evolve. We can force fruit flies to evolve to be smaller, larger, longer-lived, shorter-lived etc. Plus which we have seen evolution in action in the wild. White moths in London evolved to be grayish-black during the industrial revolution because they could hide from predators better against the sooty bark of trees; the white moths (which used to hide against birch trees) were quickly eaten. Might there be more to development than we understand? Almost certainly; we do not yet completely understand even our own development from a fetus yet. But evolution almost certainly shaped the forms of most of the life forms on this planet; in some cases we watched it happen. And given that we have seen the fossil record of our own evolution, from Australopithecus to Homo Erectus to modern Cro-Magnon man, Occam's Razor directs us to evolution as a prime mover. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zennie 0 #74 July 6, 2004 QuoteI personally don't buy into evolution and believe that we should be looking for alternative explainations Satanic-Buddhism dictates that we all evolved from Cheetos. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #75 July 6, 2004 QuoteSatanic-Buddhism dictates that we all evolved from Cheetos. Which religion would be the oppostite of Satanic-Buddhism? I want to evolve into Cheetos....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 3 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
pajarito 0 #53 July 2, 2004 Arguing with these two in particular is like running around in circles all day long and not accomplishing anything. ”They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.” Ephesians 4:18 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #54 July 2, 2004 QuoteArguing with these two in particular is like running around in circles all day long and not accomplishing anything. LOL, yep. If it continues, do you mind if I just cut and paste your previous posts in as needed? I normally don't have the time, apptitude, or inclination to engage in these mega-arguments. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #55 July 2, 2004 QuoteI just see them as two different things. Very nicely stated Bill. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #56 July 2, 2004 QuoteI normally don't have the time, apptitude, or inclination to engage in these mega-arguments. Sure. The same old things do tend to come around over and over again. Better check me for accuracy, though. I'm not an expert either. Just hard-headed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #57 July 2, 2004 QuoteArguing with these two in particular is like running around in circles all day long and not accomplishing anything. This is true. Arguing with religious types about about the stone certainties of science versus superstition, is like teaching a pig to sing. It just annoys you, and aggravates the pig. The only time I bother these days, is when they try to entact their particular superstition into public policy. Other than that, they are free to believe what they want. It's no skin off my nose. The poll here suggests that atheism/agnosticism is rapidly increasing, another indication of the social evolution of the species I think. I believe I'll have another drink as they say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #58 July 2, 2004 QuoteThe bible is not a science book or a history book, and my microbiology textbook is not a guide on how to live my life. Surely the difference is that the microbiology textbook doesn't claim to be a moral guide.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #59 July 2, 2004 QuoteArguing with these two in particular is like running around in circles all day long and not accomplishing anything. ”They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.” Ephesians 4:18 ah yes, quoting your ‘scripture’ as if it is proof or evidence of anything more than your reliance on others to reach God…. my mind is light, my heart soft, and my relationship with the divine has always been secure, no matter what your divisive dogma might claim...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #60 July 2, 2004 Happy 4th of July! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #61 July 2, 2004 QuoteHappy 4th of July! indeed be safe!____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bch7773 0 #62 July 3, 2004 I'm actually lutheran, the first REAL protestant religion. (angelican doesn't count because king henry made it just to divorce his wife) I'm also a little agnostic. the only thing that makes me agnostic is the fact that scientists studying the brain, have discovered that there is a "god section". whenever people start praying or have a religious moment, its that part of the brain acting up. now is that god making the brain do that, or is it the brain making up god? I mean, look at all the societies around the earth... the vast majority of them had a god or gods... why is that? its because part of the human mind has to attribute the unexplainable (like lightning) to something... and that something is a god figure. from that, the society builds up their religion. we laugh at some religions, but who are we to say which one is right? or maybe none of us are right. and don't give me that "you must have faith" as a valid response... its a cop-out MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GravityGirl 0 #63 July 3, 2004 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for objection to the Wiccan rede, what's wrong with it ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It doesn't prompt people to learn, grow, get better, or anything of the sort. It just prods us to seek pleasure, or "do our own thing". Inadequate, presuming you expect to exist forever. Where do you get that idea? The Wicca Way encourages self understanding and growth, as well as communal living, healing ourselves and the environment. I consider myself non-denominational, but lean toward the Wiccan Religion to express my spirituality. After my father died, my mother remarried. She married a Catholic Priest. Well. He had to leave the Preisthood to marry her and her 5 children. The man is a Genius and a Saint, in my opinion. He studied his own religion devoutly since entering the seminary at the age of 13. He also has his Masters Degree in Theology. As well as many other Masters Degrees for that matter. He wrote a University Text Book entitled "Religions of the Orient". I had the luxury of growing up with a man who had the answers to ANY religious question I could pose. I used to love it when various religious organizations would come calling at our door. The one thing that makes my Father different than most of humankind is his LACK of self-righteousness. For all his lifetime efforts to know and understand humans and their pursuit of faith, religion and understanding he still concludes that mere mortals do not have the devine answer. So one man cannot judge another for what neither truely understands. Not the religious. Not the Atheist. Not the Agnostic. To persue your questions and desire for understanding without casting judgement upon others in their own quest is one step toward enlightenment. So. Can you guess which two buttons, I clicked? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #64 July 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteIt doesn't prompt people to learn, grow, get better, or anything of the sort. It just prods us to seek pleasure, or "do our own thing". Inadequate, presuming you expect to exist forever. Where do you get that idea? The Wicca Way encourages self understanding and growth, as well as communal living, healing ourselves and the environment. I don't know much about the Wicca Way; my comment was in response to a single quote: "Be it harm none, do what thou wilst shall be the whole of the law" QuoteTo persue your questions and desire for understanding without casting judgement upon others in their own quest is one step toward enlightenment. So. Can you guess which two buttons, I clicked? Yes. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #65 July 3, 2004 not to reply to thisperson,just thelast onein the thread. anyway, I wasin a bar, andsaidthat Iam a Christian, and I am also a scientist. I do research on resistant forms of HIV-AIDS. I figure that is a pretty good profession,as professions go. So why did this guy in the bar ask me, "how can a scientist be a christian?" shit, I go to church most sundays, and I have accepted Christ as my savior. I have a job, like anyone else. Ifeel that my explorations as ascientist have INCREASED my faith in God, not decreased it. The world that God created is beautiful and complex, andit isclear that Godwanted us to explore it. So why are there people out there that think my professional lifeasa scientist compromises my spirituallife asa Christian, when I think it INCREASES my spiritual life. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,426 #66 July 3, 2004 >Surely the difference is that the microbiology textbook doesn't claim >to be a moral guide. Agreed, but some might choose to interpret that way. People often pray at odd altars; here in the US, Hollywood fame and money are certainly two of them. I know some people who base a large part of their morality on economic theory; good = economic gain. Other people use fame as a measure of moral worth, and place great importance on what famous actors say about their morality (or what they do.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PeteH 0 #67 July 3, 2004 I'm individualist. Quote If there is one "religious" tenet to live by, then it's the Wiccan rede. "Be it harm none, do what thou wilst shall be the whole of the law" Pretty much sums it all up don't you think ? The ending should be "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". It's taken from Aleister Crowley's The Book Of The Law and it's one of the most misused lines ever. However I don't believe there's a True Will, so "do what you want" is my way to go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PeteH 0 #68 July 3, 2004 Quote Evolution is proved beyond any reasonable doubt, to all execpt those that would use "faith' to deny iy. Actually there's no proof of that we are here 'cos of evolution. You can't prove it. In all science, except math, you can only prove theories wrong, but you can't prove 'em right. God created us -theory will last as long as mankind, 'cos it's impossible to prove it wrong. Even if we could create life and would be able to humans by evolution in lab, that wouldn't prove that some god didn't create us. Of course I agree that evolution theory supports the evidence quite well, and it's the best theory we have now. But it's still only theory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #69 July 3, 2004 QuoteSo why are there people out there that think my professional lifeasa scientist compromises my spirituallife asa Christian, when I think it INCREASES my spiritual life. Non-Christians incorrectly stereotype Christians as ignorant, blind followers of dead mythology. That doesn't fit very well with the attributes of a scientist. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,426 #70 July 3, 2004 >So why did this guy in the bar ask me, "how can a scientist be a christian?" I think because some (few, fortunately) christians take the bible as a science book, and thus disregard science in favor of mythology. However, I think the great majority of christians can both believe in their version of god and do good science. The two are not exclusive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gjhdiver 0 #71 July 6, 2004 QuoteI'm individualist. Quote If there is one "religious" tenet to live by, then it's the Wiccan rede. "Be it harm none, do what thou wilst shall be the whole of the law" Pretty much sums it all up don't you think ? The ending should be "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". It's taken from Aleister Crowley's The Book Of The Law and it's one of the most misused lines ever. . And he was one of the buggers who misused it. Crowley misapropriated it from earlier Wiccan and pagan texts to use it. He used it without the original qualifier, "Be it harm none". The phrase itself goes back before the Ordo Templis Orientis, and has been a staple of the Wiccan and pagan ways for longer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 144 #72 July 6, 2004 definition of a theory is "a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"" As evolution is a THEORY I believe that people should be aware of that and not treat it is as a scientific LAW. It amazes me how much "religous" belief people place in evolution. Scientists are happy to research gravity,electromagnetics and try and prove the current theories wrong (because they have holes in them - hence string theory etc) - however they only try and prove evolution right - that is not scientific method as it is meant to be applied. I personally don't buy into evolution and believe that we should be looking for alternative explainations. Beyond mutation - evolution has not been proven. I don't take the bible Genesis explaination at face value either so I am not coming from a religous angle here.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,426 #73 July 6, 2004 >A definition of a theory is "a tentative theory about the natural world; a >concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts >or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing > becomes a scientific theory"" Relativity is a theory. Yet if you design a GPS satellite and do not take relativisitic time contraction into account, your satellite will not work very well. Evolution is a theory. Yet if you do not believe that bacteria can evolve drug resistance, your public health policies could kill thousands. That's why it's not just a theoretical argument. If you are a doctor working on public health policy and you don't believe in evolution, people may die. That's serious. If you are a liberal arts major, believe whatever you want - it doesn't matter. But if someone is going to decide policies that could affect me, my family and friends, they better base their policies on real science rather than mythology. >Scientists are happy to research gravity,electromagnetics and try and >prove the current theories wrong (because they have holes in them - >hence string theory etc) - however they only try and prove evolution right - >that is not scientific method as it is meant to be applied. Exactly! And that is exactly why faith has no place in science. If you try to bend science to conform to the bible, you'll quickly reach dead ends. Science has no respect for a 4000 year old book. Now, you can _have_ faith and be a good scientist, as long as you don't think that (for example) bacteria evolve because God said so. Most religious scientists I know are able to make the distinction between science and faith. >I personally don't buy into evolution and believe that we should be >looking for alternative explainations. Beyond mutation - evolution has > not been proven. Well, we can force bacteria to evolve drug resistance. We can force-evolve food crops by the simple means of hybridizing thousands of different strains, growing millions of plants, then killing off all but a few that has the characteristics we want. Thus we force plants to evolve. We can force fruit flies to evolve to be smaller, larger, longer-lived, shorter-lived etc. Plus which we have seen evolution in action in the wild. White moths in London evolved to be grayish-black during the industrial revolution because they could hide from predators better against the sooty bark of trees; the white moths (which used to hide against birch trees) were quickly eaten. Might there be more to development than we understand? Almost certainly; we do not yet completely understand even our own development from a fetus yet. But evolution almost certainly shaped the forms of most of the life forms on this planet; in some cases we watched it happen. And given that we have seen the fossil record of our own evolution, from Australopithecus to Homo Erectus to modern Cro-Magnon man, Occam's Razor directs us to evolution as a prime mover. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zennie 0 #74 July 6, 2004 QuoteI personally don't buy into evolution and believe that we should be looking for alternative explainations Satanic-Buddhism dictates that we all evolved from Cheetos. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #75 July 6, 2004 QuoteSatanic-Buddhism dictates that we all evolved from Cheetos. Which religion would be the oppostite of Satanic-Buddhism? I want to evolve into Cheetos....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 3 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Zenister 0 #61 July 2, 2004 QuoteHappy 4th of July! indeed be safe!____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #62 July 3, 2004 I'm actually lutheran, the first REAL protestant religion. (angelican doesn't count because king henry made it just to divorce his wife) I'm also a little agnostic. the only thing that makes me agnostic is the fact that scientists studying the brain, have discovered that there is a "god section". whenever people start praying or have a religious moment, its that part of the brain acting up. now is that god making the brain do that, or is it the brain making up god? I mean, look at all the societies around the earth... the vast majority of them had a god or gods... why is that? its because part of the human mind has to attribute the unexplainable (like lightning) to something... and that something is a god figure. from that, the society builds up their religion. we laugh at some religions, but who are we to say which one is right? or maybe none of us are right. and don't give me that "you must have faith" as a valid response... its a cop-out MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #63 July 3, 2004 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for objection to the Wiccan rede, what's wrong with it ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It doesn't prompt people to learn, grow, get better, or anything of the sort. It just prods us to seek pleasure, or "do our own thing". Inadequate, presuming you expect to exist forever. Where do you get that idea? The Wicca Way encourages self understanding and growth, as well as communal living, healing ourselves and the environment. I consider myself non-denominational, but lean toward the Wiccan Religion to express my spirituality. After my father died, my mother remarried. She married a Catholic Priest. Well. He had to leave the Preisthood to marry her and her 5 children. The man is a Genius and a Saint, in my opinion. He studied his own religion devoutly since entering the seminary at the age of 13. He also has his Masters Degree in Theology. As well as many other Masters Degrees for that matter. He wrote a University Text Book entitled "Religions of the Orient". I had the luxury of growing up with a man who had the answers to ANY religious question I could pose. I used to love it when various religious organizations would come calling at our door. The one thing that makes my Father different than most of humankind is his LACK of self-righteousness. For all his lifetime efforts to know and understand humans and their pursuit of faith, religion and understanding he still concludes that mere mortals do not have the devine answer. So one man cannot judge another for what neither truely understands. Not the religious. Not the Atheist. Not the Agnostic. To persue your questions and desire for understanding without casting judgement upon others in their own quest is one step toward enlightenment. So. Can you guess which two buttons, I clicked? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #64 July 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteIt doesn't prompt people to learn, grow, get better, or anything of the sort. It just prods us to seek pleasure, or "do our own thing". Inadequate, presuming you expect to exist forever. Where do you get that idea? The Wicca Way encourages self understanding and growth, as well as communal living, healing ourselves and the environment. I don't know much about the Wicca Way; my comment was in response to a single quote: "Be it harm none, do what thou wilst shall be the whole of the law" QuoteTo persue your questions and desire for understanding without casting judgement upon others in their own quest is one step toward enlightenment. So. Can you guess which two buttons, I clicked? Yes. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #65 July 3, 2004 not to reply to thisperson,just thelast onein the thread. anyway, I wasin a bar, andsaidthat Iam a Christian, and I am also a scientist. I do research on resistant forms of HIV-AIDS. I figure that is a pretty good profession,as professions go. So why did this guy in the bar ask me, "how can a scientist be a christian?" shit, I go to church most sundays, and I have accepted Christ as my savior. I have a job, like anyone else. Ifeel that my explorations as ascientist have INCREASED my faith in God, not decreased it. The world that God created is beautiful and complex, andit isclear that Godwanted us to explore it. So why are there people out there that think my professional lifeasa scientist compromises my spirituallife asa Christian, when I think it INCREASES my spiritual life. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #66 July 3, 2004 >Surely the difference is that the microbiology textbook doesn't claim >to be a moral guide. Agreed, but some might choose to interpret that way. People often pray at odd altars; here in the US, Hollywood fame and money are certainly two of them. I know some people who base a large part of their morality on economic theory; good = economic gain. Other people use fame as a measure of moral worth, and place great importance on what famous actors say about their morality (or what they do.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeteH 0 #67 July 3, 2004 I'm individualist. Quote If there is one "religious" tenet to live by, then it's the Wiccan rede. "Be it harm none, do what thou wilst shall be the whole of the law" Pretty much sums it all up don't you think ? The ending should be "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". It's taken from Aleister Crowley's The Book Of The Law and it's one of the most misused lines ever. However I don't believe there's a True Will, so "do what you want" is my way to go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeteH 0 #68 July 3, 2004 Quote Evolution is proved beyond any reasonable doubt, to all execpt those that would use "faith' to deny iy. Actually there's no proof of that we are here 'cos of evolution. You can't prove it. In all science, except math, you can only prove theories wrong, but you can't prove 'em right. God created us -theory will last as long as mankind, 'cos it's impossible to prove it wrong. Even if we could create life and would be able to humans by evolution in lab, that wouldn't prove that some god didn't create us. Of course I agree that evolution theory supports the evidence quite well, and it's the best theory we have now. But it's still only theory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #69 July 3, 2004 QuoteSo why are there people out there that think my professional lifeasa scientist compromises my spirituallife asa Christian, when I think it INCREASES my spiritual life. Non-Christians incorrectly stereotype Christians as ignorant, blind followers of dead mythology. That doesn't fit very well with the attributes of a scientist. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #70 July 3, 2004 >So why did this guy in the bar ask me, "how can a scientist be a christian?" I think because some (few, fortunately) christians take the bible as a science book, and thus disregard science in favor of mythology. However, I think the great majority of christians can both believe in their version of god and do good science. The two are not exclusive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #71 July 6, 2004 QuoteI'm individualist. Quote If there is one "religious" tenet to live by, then it's the Wiccan rede. "Be it harm none, do what thou wilst shall be the whole of the law" Pretty much sums it all up don't you think ? The ending should be "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". It's taken from Aleister Crowley's The Book Of The Law and it's one of the most misused lines ever. . And he was one of the buggers who misused it. Crowley misapropriated it from earlier Wiccan and pagan texts to use it. He used it without the original qualifier, "Be it harm none". The phrase itself goes back before the Ordo Templis Orientis, and has been a staple of the Wiccan and pagan ways for longer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #72 July 6, 2004 definition of a theory is "a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"" As evolution is a THEORY I believe that people should be aware of that and not treat it is as a scientific LAW. It amazes me how much "religous" belief people place in evolution. Scientists are happy to research gravity,electromagnetics and try and prove the current theories wrong (because they have holes in them - hence string theory etc) - however they only try and prove evolution right - that is not scientific method as it is meant to be applied. I personally don't buy into evolution and believe that we should be looking for alternative explainations. Beyond mutation - evolution has not been proven. I don't take the bible Genesis explaination at face value either so I am not coming from a religous angle here.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #73 July 6, 2004 >A definition of a theory is "a tentative theory about the natural world; a >concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts >or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing > becomes a scientific theory"" Relativity is a theory. Yet if you design a GPS satellite and do not take relativisitic time contraction into account, your satellite will not work very well. Evolution is a theory. Yet if you do not believe that bacteria can evolve drug resistance, your public health policies could kill thousands. That's why it's not just a theoretical argument. If you are a doctor working on public health policy and you don't believe in evolution, people may die. That's serious. If you are a liberal arts major, believe whatever you want - it doesn't matter. But if someone is going to decide policies that could affect me, my family and friends, they better base their policies on real science rather than mythology. >Scientists are happy to research gravity,electromagnetics and try and >prove the current theories wrong (because they have holes in them - >hence string theory etc) - however they only try and prove evolution right - >that is not scientific method as it is meant to be applied. Exactly! And that is exactly why faith has no place in science. If you try to bend science to conform to the bible, you'll quickly reach dead ends. Science has no respect for a 4000 year old book. Now, you can _have_ faith and be a good scientist, as long as you don't think that (for example) bacteria evolve because God said so. Most religious scientists I know are able to make the distinction between science and faith. >I personally don't buy into evolution and believe that we should be >looking for alternative explainations. Beyond mutation - evolution has > not been proven. Well, we can force bacteria to evolve drug resistance. We can force-evolve food crops by the simple means of hybridizing thousands of different strains, growing millions of plants, then killing off all but a few that has the characteristics we want. Thus we force plants to evolve. We can force fruit flies to evolve to be smaller, larger, longer-lived, shorter-lived etc. Plus which we have seen evolution in action in the wild. White moths in London evolved to be grayish-black during the industrial revolution because they could hide from predators better against the sooty bark of trees; the white moths (which used to hide against birch trees) were quickly eaten. Might there be more to development than we understand? Almost certainly; we do not yet completely understand even our own development from a fetus yet. But evolution almost certainly shaped the forms of most of the life forms on this planet; in some cases we watched it happen. And given that we have seen the fossil record of our own evolution, from Australopithecus to Homo Erectus to modern Cro-Magnon man, Occam's Razor directs us to evolution as a prime mover. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #74 July 6, 2004 QuoteI personally don't buy into evolution and believe that we should be looking for alternative explainations Satanic-Buddhism dictates that we all evolved from Cheetos. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #75 July 6, 2004 QuoteSatanic-Buddhism dictates that we all evolved from Cheetos. Which religion would be the oppostite of Satanic-Buddhism? I want to evolve into Cheetos....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
