livendive 8 #126 July 8, 2004 QuoteThe pole at the top shows a majority of atheists and agnostics in the pool of dz.com responders. It's a shame but it appears to be true. That's the part I don't get. What makes you consider it "a shame" that others believe differently than you? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #127 July 8, 2004 QuoteHowever there are two more sets of commandments in the bible found in Exodus 34:12-26 and in Deuteronomy 5:6-21 , they are similar to each other but not exact, which shows to me that either: A. God allowed his words to be changed by whoever was writing each particular part of the bible, which if true then his words could have been changed in MANY parts of the bible or B. They are not the words of God, they are words of men living during that time who had similar ideas and values, just as if you look at the laws each state or city may have, they all say pretty much the same thing but they are a little different because they were written by different people.Quote Ok….let’s compare… From NIV Study Bible: The Ten Commandments, recorded here were written by God himself on two stone tablets and given to Moses and the Israelites. And God spoke all these words: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” Exodus 20:1-17 ------------------------------------------------------- From NIV Study Bible: This was part of Moses’ farewell message in which he reviewed and renewed God’s covenant with Israel for the sake of the new generation of Israelites. They had come to the end of their desert wandering and were now ready to enter the land of Canaan. For the most part this new generation had no personal recollection of the first Passover, the Red Sea crossing or the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai. They needed an inspired recounting of God’s covenant, law and faithfulness, as well as a fresh declaration concerning the accompanying blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the Lord your God is giving you. You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor’s house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” Deuteronomy 5:6-21 ------------------------------------------------------- I’ve bolded the things that are different in Moses’ version as opposed to God’s. Moses didn’t write them both (speaking of the original tablets version). They say the same things, however. The wording, like you say, is slightly different but I don’t see as how one discredits the other due to that. For instance, if I say “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor”, doesn’t that mean the exact same thing as “You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor’s house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” ------------------------------------------------------- Exodus 34:12-26 deals mainly with ceremonial law. The 10 Commandments are considered moral laws. An explanation of the difference in the laws of that time, which I’ve posted before, is below: The commands of the Old Testament are divided generally into moral law, ceremonial law and civil law. The moral law (e.g., the 10 commandments) remain in effect and few people would question that. The ceremonial law (sacrificing 2 oxen, etc.) was fulfilled in Jesus' sacrificial death and the New Testament teaches that it is not binding anymore. The civil law (stoning for adultry, etc.) was the law of the nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and is not the civil law of any other nation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #128 July 8, 2004 QuoteThat's the part I don't get. What makes you consider it "a shame" that others believe differently than you? I don't consider it a shame for others to believe or think differently than I do. I shouldn't be the one anyone puts their faith in. If you do, then you'll probably be in for a very bumpy ride. I'm wrong every day. If I didn't care about the welfare of others, however, I wouldn't speak up at all. I do consider it a shame that so many can't see, for whatever reason, the truth spelled out and proven to be true by Jesus. I consider it a shame that others don't believe and think like him. There are many roads you can take in life. There is only one that leads to God. The others don't. If you saw someone standing in the middle of the road talking on their cell phone and not paying attention with an oncoming car about to smash into them, wouldn't you want to warn them to get out of the way? That's the idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,467 #129 July 8, 2004 >There are many roads you can take in life. There is only one that leads to > God. The others don't. I think God is a lot less narrow-minded than you imply. > If you saw someone standing in the middle of the >road talking on their cell phone and not paying attention with an oncoming >car about to smash into them, wouldn't you want to warn them to get out >of the way? That's the idea. Actually, I think if I saw someone taking a different road than I was taking, and they seemed happy with it, I wouldn't try to talk them out of the road they were on. I think a lot of problems in the world today come about because people decide that the road they are on is the only right one, and every other one (whether that road is Buddhism, socialism, republicanism, skydiving or whatever) is wrong. Historically that view has caused millions of deaths and untold unhappiness, and it's a view I try to avoid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #130 July 8, 2004 Quote>Name 5 things that we can prove right. 1. People like to argue at Speaker's Corner. 2. Skydivers drink a lot of beer. 3. My Nova opens really hard. 4. My keys can move magically away from the place I left them. 5. Sangiro can ban people. 1. I don't, I'm a masochist. 2. That's relative. 3. Also relative. 4. That's gnomes, not magic. 5. People can be banned on dz.com? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #131 July 8, 2004 QuoteI think a lot of problems in the world today come about because people decide that the road they are on is the only right one, and every other one (whether that road is Buddhism, socialism, republicanism, skydiving or whatever) is wrong. Historically that view has caused millions of deaths and untold unhappiness, and it's a view I try to avoid. And that attitude is pretty much a direct contradiction of what Jesus taught his followers. That was the attitude of the temple priests that conspired to have him killed. (The attitude you are describing, that is, not the attitude you are portraying). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #132 July 8, 2004 QuoteAnd that attitude is pretty much a direct contradiction of what Jesus taught his followers. That was the attitude of the temple priests that conspired to have him killed. (The attitude you are describing, that is, not the attitude you are portraying). You are incorrect. Here's what Jesus himself taught his followers: Jesus told his disciples, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). He did not merely point the way to God. He himself claimed to be the only way to the Father and the source of eternal truth and life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #133 July 8, 2004 QuoteHe did not merely point the way to God. He himself claimed to be the only way to the Father and the source of eternal truth and life. And what was his way? Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. His disciples said, "Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it." He said to them, "Anyone here with two ears had better listen! There is light within a person of light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is dark." His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?" Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid." Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites favaks 0 #134 July 8, 2004 Quote There is only one that leads to God. The others don't I find this very insulting to God. favaks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #135 July 8, 2004 Ok...that threw me for a minute. You're pulling all that from the Gospel of Thomas, right? Maybe the vagueness of the passages you mentioned are one of the reasons it was not included in either the Catholic or Protestant canons. I don't know. Either way, it spells it out pretty clear in all of the different books of the accepted New Testament. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #136 July 8, 2004 QuoteQuote There is only one that leads to God. The others don't I find this very insulting to God. favaks Do you speak for God? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites favaks 0 #137 July 8, 2004 Quote Do you speak for God? No, but you obviously do. favaks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #138 July 8, 2004 QuoteQuote Do you speak for God? No, but you obviously do. favaks I'm not making this stuff up. I don't claim authorship. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #139 July 9, 2004 QuoteYou're pulling all that from the Gospel of Thomas, right? Nice catch QuoteMaybe the vagueness of the passages you mentioned are one of the reasons it was not included in either the Catholic or Protestant canons. I wouldn't say it's any more vague than anything that WAS included. Maybe the implied philosophy that a formal religious institution is not necessary to find god is one of the reasons it was not included in the canons. There are many records and stories about Jesus that indicate he was very anti-authoritarian, borderline militaristic, particularly toward the church even more than the Romans. Coincidentally, none of those are included in the church's approved canons. I'm pretty sure that if Jesus weren't born in Israel, he would have been a Budhist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #140 July 9, 2004 Ok...I disagree with just about all of this. I don't think Jesus could be described as militaristic as and even more so than the Romans in any capacity. However, what has this got to do with what we were talking about concerning the validity and applicability of the 10 Commandments and whether or not you and everyone else, including me, have been able to live up to them and, therefore, be seen as righteous in God's eyes? I’ll still comment on your quotes from The Gospel of Thomas: I’ve not read The Gospel of Thomas so I can’t see these verses in their proper context, but here is my take only on what you wrote based on what I know about Jesus. I could be wrong. This, however, in no way invalidates the accepted text. QuoteJesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. I think it’s saying here that Heaven is a spiritual thing and not someplace one can physically point to as a location. The capability to be right with God and achieve Heaven is also in each and every one of us. That’s called “free-will.” QuoteHis disciples said, "Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it." He said to them, "Anyone here with two ears had better listen! There is light within a person of light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is dark." There is a “light” within a “person of light.” This sounds to me like someone who is saved and has Jesus living within them. It sounds very much like Jesus’ instruction to proclaim the “good news” to the world and is similar to the instruction listed in Matthew. ”You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.” Matthew 5:14-16 QuoteHis disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?" Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid." It sounds very much like Jesus is making an example of impossibility to prove a point. Kind of like saying something will happen “when pigs fly.” He’s saying that only when you are sinless will you be righteous before God and not be afraid or ashamed. They only way that’s going to happen is through Jesus. QuoteJesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." This sounds like a very nice example of Jesus’ claim of divinity. He is the “Alpha and the Omega”, “the beginning and the end”, and the “maker of all things. He is God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gjhdiver 0 #141 July 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote Do you speak for God? No, but you obviously do. favaks I'm not making this stuff up. I don't claim authorship. Yes. but while you are not making it up, you're quoting from a text that pretty much is. I'm glad you have your faith, seems to work for you. However, if I never have to listen to another tedious witnessing, it will be too soon. I know all about why you feel it should be done, but for a non believer, it's incredibly patronizing to have to listen to for the umpteenth time, and speaking for myself, I find it just about as compelling to listening to UFO conspiracy buffs. If Jesus existed at all, he was a nice lad who went into his dad's business, then got nailed for running his yap. There's practically no physical evidence that he actually existed other than stories, and those have been so thoroughly amended over 200 years, as to be meaningless as historical evidence of what he might not have done or said. If he did exist, what men have done in his name over the centuries should rightfully disgust him. Basically, your enlightenment is not a license for evangelism on my behalf. You be a happy Christian, I'll be a happy pagan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #142 July 9, 2004 QuoteHowever, if I never have to listen to another tedious witnessing, it will be too soon. I know all about why you feel it should be done, but for a non believer, it's incredibly patronizing to have to listen to for the umpteenth time, and speaking for myself, I find it just about as compelling to listening to UFO conspiracy buffs. You be a happy Christian, I'll be a happy pagan. Very well. Then please ignore everything I might write in this thread labeled "Religion, who, what, and how do you believe/practice." It won't in any way be directed at you. Otherwise, I'd suggest looking at some other threads if you're not interested in hearing what's said concerning the subject at hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #143 July 9, 2004 QuoteI don't consider it a shame for others to believe or think differently than I do. I shouldn't be the one anyone puts their faith in. If you do, then you'll probably be in for a very bumpy ride. I'm wrong every day. If I didn't care about the welfare of others, however, I wouldn't speak up at all. I do consider it a shame that so many can't see, for whatever reason, the truth spelled out and proven to be true by Jesus. I consider it a shame that others don't believe and think like him. There are many roads you can take in life. There is only one that leads to God. The others don't. If you saw someone standing in the middle of the road talking on their cell phone and not paying attention with an oncoming car about to smash into them, wouldn't you want to warn them to get out of the way? That's the idea. I have to disagree with this. Christianity (or any other religion) is a product of culture and geography. Every religion states that theirs is the only way to God and the rest are shit out of luck. Which one you believe in depends on which you are raised in and exposed to. Personally, if God is so petty as to allow those of only one faith through the pearly gates, I'm not interested. The Bible and any other religious text is written with divine inspiration, not divine dictation, so there are many contradictions and slanted perspectives, it is human nature for this to be. To follow the beliefs of other humans just because they tell me to doesn't fit well with my psyche. As others have mentioned, organized religion causes more hatred, misunderstanding, war and pain than many other things in life. To be part of any organized religion means that I tacetly give approval to these things, and that I can not do. I very strongly disagree with the person in the middle of the road analogy. Any God who is infinite, all knowing, and all powerful could not possibly be understood by any human, so to claim that one faith or perspective is right above all others could not possibly be realistic. Probably all faiths are wrong, but all also right, in their own ways. Those of us who are not Christian are just as firm and true in our own belief systems (whatever they may be) as you are in your Christianity, so to try to convert us or convince us we are wrong shows great disrespect for our belief systems which are equally valid as yours from our stances. I respect your views enough to never try to 'convert' you, have the same respect for others of different beliefs. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #144 July 9, 2004 QuoteThere are many roads you can take in life. There is only one that leads to God. The others don't. If you saw someone standing in the middle of the road talking on their cell phone and not paying attention with an oncoming car about to smash into them, wouldn't you want to warn them to get out of the way? That's the idea. I can kind of understand your analogy, but we need to be a bit clearer on things. The oncoming car that you believe is about to smash into me is invisible. You've never seen one of these invisible cars smash into anyone, nor has anyone else. You and I both have heard that these invisible cars exist and that they can smash into people, however we responded differently to those stories in that you believe them and I don't. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #145 July 9, 2004 QuoteI have to disagree with this. Christianity (or any other religion) is a product of culture and geography. Every religion states that theirs is the only way to God and the rest are shit out of luck. Which one you believe in depends on which you are raised in and exposed to. I don’t think that Christianity says that everyone else is “out of luck” as you say. I agree that there are many, who have never heard of Jesus by being brought up in a different part of the world, in another religion, or in no religion at all and, therefore, might not be held to the same standard as I am in reference to salvation. I don’t know what God has in store for them. I do know that all people have been made known to God’s existence through his creation, their sense of self and their innate basic knowledge of right and wrong (conscience). I also know, however, that those of us who have heard of or have had access to the truth will be held accountable and have no excuse. Also, I’m sure every religion out there claims to be the correct one, however, only Jesus proved his way to be the only way. No other religion has the verifying properties of fulfilled prophesy, miracles, eye-witness testimony of martyrs, torture, crucifixion, death, and resurrection of its lead figure who claimed to be God himself. That’s what sets Christianity apart from all the rest. It’s not about the “religion.” It’s all about Jesus Christ. QuotePersonally, if God is so petty as to allow those of only one faith through the pearly gates, I'm not interested. The Bible and any other religious text is written with divine inspiration, not divine dictation, so there are many contradictions and slanted perspectives, it is human nature for this to be. To follow the beliefs of other humans just because they tell me to doesn't fit well with my psyche. You stated yourself that the Bible is written with divine inspiration. Sure, for various reasons, the text is presented in different ways by the different authors. However, “with divine inspiration”, the central theme of salvation through Christ from his own words is presented over and over, by different authors, in many different books of the Bible. Therefore, it’s not that you need to believe just because other humans are telling you what to do. It’s that you need to believe because God says so. QuoteAs others have mentioned, organized religion causes more hatred, misunderstanding, war and pain than many other things in life. To be part of any organized religion means that I tacetly give approval to these things, and that I can not do. I agree, if “religion” is the central part of your belief (whatever religion you may be referring to). First and foremost, you should look to God and, with Jesus in your heart; you then come together in the body of Christ (the Church). The religion or the religious organization should never supercede God. That is also known as idolatry and has been, as you say, misused throughout the centuries causing hatred, war, and pain. QuoteI very strongly disagree with the person in the middle of the road analogy. Any God who is infinite, all knowing, and all powerful could not possibly be understood by any human, so to claim that one faith or perspective is right above all others could not possibly be realistic. Probably all faiths are wrong, but all also right, in their own ways. You are correct in that no human can understand God completely. Also, because of the sinful nature, no human can possibly serve as the “perfect penitent” and account for the sins of people where “justice” is necessary. God became man (Jesus), gave us a frame of reference to his character, and did what God himself, due to his completely holy nature, could not do. Repent perfectly, because he didn’t need to, on behalf of the entire human race and, therefore, reconcile the believers with God. He is the person in the middle of the road, whether you like it or not, and is the only way. You have that knowledge and are accountable. There will be justice in the end and you will stand before God in judgment for what you’ve done in your life. However, redemption is a free gift. You won’t earn it by doing good things. You just have to accept it. QuoteThose of us who are not Christian are just as firm and true in our own belief systems (whatever they may be) as you are in your Christianity, so to try to convert us or convince us we are wrong shows great disrespect for our belief systems which are equally valid as yours from our stances. I respect your views enough to never try to 'convert' you, have the same respect for others of different beliefs. I fully respect your firm position and anyone else of another religion or no religion at all. Neither I nor any other Christian will ever convert anyone. They should also not take any credit whatsoever for any who do decide to convert. I’m just presenting the information. Nothing can happen in your heart in reference to conversion without God’s influence. If I happen to be influential in someone’s decision, it is merely because I am acting in the capacity of an instrument for God’s purpose. He is in control. Again, I fully respect yours and other’s positions in this discussion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,150 #146 July 9, 2004 QuoteNo SinterKlaas?! Blasphemy Where I grew up Sinterklaas is different from Santa. Sinterklaas is for real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #147 July 9, 2004 the Jews believe that Jesus did not meet the criteria of the Messiah...who better to know that then they? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #148 July 9, 2004 True. I agree with your statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #149 July 9, 2004 Quotethe Jews believe that Jesus did not meet the criteria of the Messiah...who better to know that then they? They were looking for a Messiah to come and conquer the Romans. A warrior who would deliver them from their dominatation. The "practicing" Jews (in the religious sense) missed the boat just like everyone else. Gotta go. Be back later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #150 July 9, 2004 From a couple of Jewish websites: First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15) Jesus was a Jew. He met this criteria. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10) To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah. if Christians are right, Jesus had no biological father, and therefore could not have been a member of the tribe of Judah. If, in fact, he did have a biological father, there would have to be a fundamental flaw in Christian doctrine. He either meets the Jewish criteria and has a human father, or he meets the Christian criteria and does not. He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13) The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether! According to Christianity, Jesus had no human father. Therefore, for Jews, the discussion of Jesus as the Messiah stops here. Nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does the Royal Blood Line continue by adoption. The Jewish Scriptures clearly state that a person’s genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one’s PHYSICAL father (Numbers 1:18 Jeremiah 33:17) bloodlines cannot be passed by adoption according to scripture. Therefore, Jesus cannot be of the line of David, and does not meet the criteria Nowhere in Hebrew Scripture does it ever say that during the Messianic era, HaMoshiach will come back a second time to fulfill the events that had to occur during his time on Earth. And nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does it say that HaMoshiach would be a deity. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being with no connotation of deity or divinity. One more point, nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does it ever tell that G-d (HaShem) would come to earth as a human being, a man and die, as a human sacrifice. Biblical References Lev.18:21; Deut. 12:3; Jer. 7:31 & 32:35; 2 Kings 16:3 & 17; Ezekiel 20:31, and Psalms 106:32-38 The criteria: 1. Must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 2. Must be a direct descendent of both King David and King Solomon (l Chronicles 17:11; Psalm 89:29-38; Jeremiah 33:17; ll Samuel 7:12-16; l Chronicles 22:10 and ll Chronicles 7:18) 3. Must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel (Isaiah 27:12-13 & 11:12) 4. Must rebuild the Jewish Temple (the 3rd Temple) (Micah 4:1) 5. Must bring in “world peace” (Isaiah 2:4; 11:6 & Micah 4:3) 6. Must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve the One God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9; Isaiah 40:5; and Zephaniah 3:9) All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28: And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore. If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah" according to the Jews. A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 6 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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pajarito 0 #128 July 8, 2004 QuoteThat's the part I don't get. What makes you consider it "a shame" that others believe differently than you? I don't consider it a shame for others to believe or think differently than I do. I shouldn't be the one anyone puts their faith in. If you do, then you'll probably be in for a very bumpy ride. I'm wrong every day. If I didn't care about the welfare of others, however, I wouldn't speak up at all. I do consider it a shame that so many can't see, for whatever reason, the truth spelled out and proven to be true by Jesus. I consider it a shame that others don't believe and think like him. There are many roads you can take in life. There is only one that leads to God. The others don't. If you saw someone standing in the middle of the road talking on their cell phone and not paying attention with an oncoming car about to smash into them, wouldn't you want to warn them to get out of the way? That's the idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,467 #129 July 8, 2004 >There are many roads you can take in life. There is only one that leads to > God. The others don't. I think God is a lot less narrow-minded than you imply. > If you saw someone standing in the middle of the >road talking on their cell phone and not paying attention with an oncoming >car about to smash into them, wouldn't you want to warn them to get out >of the way? That's the idea. Actually, I think if I saw someone taking a different road than I was taking, and they seemed happy with it, I wouldn't try to talk them out of the road they were on. I think a lot of problems in the world today come about because people decide that the road they are on is the only right one, and every other one (whether that road is Buddhism, socialism, republicanism, skydiving or whatever) is wrong. Historically that view has caused millions of deaths and untold unhappiness, and it's a view I try to avoid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #130 July 8, 2004 Quote>Name 5 things that we can prove right. 1. People like to argue at Speaker's Corner. 2. Skydivers drink a lot of beer. 3. My Nova opens really hard. 4. My keys can move magically away from the place I left them. 5. Sangiro can ban people. 1. I don't, I'm a masochist. 2. That's relative. 3. Also relative. 4. That's gnomes, not magic. 5. People can be banned on dz.com? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #131 July 8, 2004 QuoteI think a lot of problems in the world today come about because people decide that the road they are on is the only right one, and every other one (whether that road is Buddhism, socialism, republicanism, skydiving or whatever) is wrong. Historically that view has caused millions of deaths and untold unhappiness, and it's a view I try to avoid. And that attitude is pretty much a direct contradiction of what Jesus taught his followers. That was the attitude of the temple priests that conspired to have him killed. (The attitude you are describing, that is, not the attitude you are portraying). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #132 July 8, 2004 QuoteAnd that attitude is pretty much a direct contradiction of what Jesus taught his followers. That was the attitude of the temple priests that conspired to have him killed. (The attitude you are describing, that is, not the attitude you are portraying). You are incorrect. Here's what Jesus himself taught his followers: Jesus told his disciples, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). He did not merely point the way to God. He himself claimed to be the only way to the Father and the source of eternal truth and life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #133 July 8, 2004 QuoteHe did not merely point the way to God. He himself claimed to be the only way to the Father and the source of eternal truth and life. And what was his way? Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. His disciples said, "Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it." He said to them, "Anyone here with two ears had better listen! There is light within a person of light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is dark." His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?" Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid." Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
favaks 0 #134 July 8, 2004 Quote There is only one that leads to God. The others don't I find this very insulting to God. favaks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #135 July 8, 2004 Ok...that threw me for a minute. You're pulling all that from the Gospel of Thomas, right? Maybe the vagueness of the passages you mentioned are one of the reasons it was not included in either the Catholic or Protestant canons. I don't know. Either way, it spells it out pretty clear in all of the different books of the accepted New Testament. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #136 July 8, 2004 QuoteQuote There is only one that leads to God. The others don't I find this very insulting to God. favaks Do you speak for God? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
favaks 0 #137 July 8, 2004 Quote Do you speak for God? No, but you obviously do. favaks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #138 July 8, 2004 QuoteQuote Do you speak for God? No, but you obviously do. favaks I'm not making this stuff up. I don't claim authorship. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #139 July 9, 2004 QuoteYou're pulling all that from the Gospel of Thomas, right? Nice catch QuoteMaybe the vagueness of the passages you mentioned are one of the reasons it was not included in either the Catholic or Protestant canons. I wouldn't say it's any more vague than anything that WAS included. Maybe the implied philosophy that a formal religious institution is not necessary to find god is one of the reasons it was not included in the canons. There are many records and stories about Jesus that indicate he was very anti-authoritarian, borderline militaristic, particularly toward the church even more than the Romans. Coincidentally, none of those are included in the church's approved canons. I'm pretty sure that if Jesus weren't born in Israel, he would have been a Budhist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #140 July 9, 2004 Ok...I disagree with just about all of this. I don't think Jesus could be described as militaristic as and even more so than the Romans in any capacity. However, what has this got to do with what we were talking about concerning the validity and applicability of the 10 Commandments and whether or not you and everyone else, including me, have been able to live up to them and, therefore, be seen as righteous in God's eyes? I’ll still comment on your quotes from The Gospel of Thomas: I’ve not read The Gospel of Thomas so I can’t see these verses in their proper context, but here is my take only on what you wrote based on what I know about Jesus. I could be wrong. This, however, in no way invalidates the accepted text. QuoteJesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. I think it’s saying here that Heaven is a spiritual thing and not someplace one can physically point to as a location. The capability to be right with God and achieve Heaven is also in each and every one of us. That’s called “free-will.” QuoteHis disciples said, "Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it." He said to them, "Anyone here with two ears had better listen! There is light within a person of light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is dark." There is a “light” within a “person of light.” This sounds to me like someone who is saved and has Jesus living within them. It sounds very much like Jesus’ instruction to proclaim the “good news” to the world and is similar to the instruction listed in Matthew. ”You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.” Matthew 5:14-16 QuoteHis disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?" Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid." It sounds very much like Jesus is making an example of impossibility to prove a point. Kind of like saying something will happen “when pigs fly.” He’s saying that only when you are sinless will you be righteous before God and not be afraid or ashamed. They only way that’s going to happen is through Jesus. QuoteJesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." This sounds like a very nice example of Jesus’ claim of divinity. He is the “Alpha and the Omega”, “the beginning and the end”, and the “maker of all things. He is God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #141 July 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote Do you speak for God? No, but you obviously do. favaks I'm not making this stuff up. I don't claim authorship. Yes. but while you are not making it up, you're quoting from a text that pretty much is. I'm glad you have your faith, seems to work for you. However, if I never have to listen to another tedious witnessing, it will be too soon. I know all about why you feel it should be done, but for a non believer, it's incredibly patronizing to have to listen to for the umpteenth time, and speaking for myself, I find it just about as compelling to listening to UFO conspiracy buffs. If Jesus existed at all, he was a nice lad who went into his dad's business, then got nailed for running his yap. There's practically no physical evidence that he actually existed other than stories, and those have been so thoroughly amended over 200 years, as to be meaningless as historical evidence of what he might not have done or said. If he did exist, what men have done in his name over the centuries should rightfully disgust him. Basically, your enlightenment is not a license for evangelism on my behalf. You be a happy Christian, I'll be a happy pagan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #142 July 9, 2004 QuoteHowever, if I never have to listen to another tedious witnessing, it will be too soon. I know all about why you feel it should be done, but for a non believer, it's incredibly patronizing to have to listen to for the umpteenth time, and speaking for myself, I find it just about as compelling to listening to UFO conspiracy buffs. You be a happy Christian, I'll be a happy pagan. Very well. Then please ignore everything I might write in this thread labeled "Religion, who, what, and how do you believe/practice." It won't in any way be directed at you. Otherwise, I'd suggest looking at some other threads if you're not interested in hearing what's said concerning the subject at hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #143 July 9, 2004 QuoteI don't consider it a shame for others to believe or think differently than I do. I shouldn't be the one anyone puts their faith in. If you do, then you'll probably be in for a very bumpy ride. I'm wrong every day. If I didn't care about the welfare of others, however, I wouldn't speak up at all. I do consider it a shame that so many can't see, for whatever reason, the truth spelled out and proven to be true by Jesus. I consider it a shame that others don't believe and think like him. There are many roads you can take in life. There is only one that leads to God. The others don't. If you saw someone standing in the middle of the road talking on their cell phone and not paying attention with an oncoming car about to smash into them, wouldn't you want to warn them to get out of the way? That's the idea. I have to disagree with this. Christianity (or any other religion) is a product of culture and geography. Every religion states that theirs is the only way to God and the rest are shit out of luck. Which one you believe in depends on which you are raised in and exposed to. Personally, if God is so petty as to allow those of only one faith through the pearly gates, I'm not interested. The Bible and any other religious text is written with divine inspiration, not divine dictation, so there are many contradictions and slanted perspectives, it is human nature for this to be. To follow the beliefs of other humans just because they tell me to doesn't fit well with my psyche. As others have mentioned, organized religion causes more hatred, misunderstanding, war and pain than many other things in life. To be part of any organized religion means that I tacetly give approval to these things, and that I can not do. I very strongly disagree with the person in the middle of the road analogy. Any God who is infinite, all knowing, and all powerful could not possibly be understood by any human, so to claim that one faith or perspective is right above all others could not possibly be realistic. Probably all faiths are wrong, but all also right, in their own ways. Those of us who are not Christian are just as firm and true in our own belief systems (whatever they may be) as you are in your Christianity, so to try to convert us or convince us we are wrong shows great disrespect for our belief systems which are equally valid as yours from our stances. I respect your views enough to never try to 'convert' you, have the same respect for others of different beliefs. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #144 July 9, 2004 QuoteThere are many roads you can take in life. There is only one that leads to God. The others don't. If you saw someone standing in the middle of the road talking on their cell phone and not paying attention with an oncoming car about to smash into them, wouldn't you want to warn them to get out of the way? That's the idea. I can kind of understand your analogy, but we need to be a bit clearer on things. The oncoming car that you believe is about to smash into me is invisible. You've never seen one of these invisible cars smash into anyone, nor has anyone else. You and I both have heard that these invisible cars exist and that they can smash into people, however we responded differently to those stories in that you believe them and I don't. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #145 July 9, 2004 QuoteI have to disagree with this. Christianity (or any other religion) is a product of culture and geography. Every religion states that theirs is the only way to God and the rest are shit out of luck. Which one you believe in depends on which you are raised in and exposed to. I don’t think that Christianity says that everyone else is “out of luck” as you say. I agree that there are many, who have never heard of Jesus by being brought up in a different part of the world, in another religion, or in no religion at all and, therefore, might not be held to the same standard as I am in reference to salvation. I don’t know what God has in store for them. I do know that all people have been made known to God’s existence through his creation, their sense of self and their innate basic knowledge of right and wrong (conscience). I also know, however, that those of us who have heard of or have had access to the truth will be held accountable and have no excuse. Also, I’m sure every religion out there claims to be the correct one, however, only Jesus proved his way to be the only way. No other religion has the verifying properties of fulfilled prophesy, miracles, eye-witness testimony of martyrs, torture, crucifixion, death, and resurrection of its lead figure who claimed to be God himself. That’s what sets Christianity apart from all the rest. It’s not about the “religion.” It’s all about Jesus Christ. QuotePersonally, if God is so petty as to allow those of only one faith through the pearly gates, I'm not interested. The Bible and any other religious text is written with divine inspiration, not divine dictation, so there are many contradictions and slanted perspectives, it is human nature for this to be. To follow the beliefs of other humans just because they tell me to doesn't fit well with my psyche. You stated yourself that the Bible is written with divine inspiration. Sure, for various reasons, the text is presented in different ways by the different authors. However, “with divine inspiration”, the central theme of salvation through Christ from his own words is presented over and over, by different authors, in many different books of the Bible. Therefore, it’s not that you need to believe just because other humans are telling you what to do. It’s that you need to believe because God says so. QuoteAs others have mentioned, organized religion causes more hatred, misunderstanding, war and pain than many other things in life. To be part of any organized religion means that I tacetly give approval to these things, and that I can not do. I agree, if “religion” is the central part of your belief (whatever religion you may be referring to). First and foremost, you should look to God and, with Jesus in your heart; you then come together in the body of Christ (the Church). The religion or the religious organization should never supercede God. That is also known as idolatry and has been, as you say, misused throughout the centuries causing hatred, war, and pain. QuoteI very strongly disagree with the person in the middle of the road analogy. Any God who is infinite, all knowing, and all powerful could not possibly be understood by any human, so to claim that one faith or perspective is right above all others could not possibly be realistic. Probably all faiths are wrong, but all also right, in their own ways. You are correct in that no human can understand God completely. Also, because of the sinful nature, no human can possibly serve as the “perfect penitent” and account for the sins of people where “justice” is necessary. God became man (Jesus), gave us a frame of reference to his character, and did what God himself, due to his completely holy nature, could not do. Repent perfectly, because he didn’t need to, on behalf of the entire human race and, therefore, reconcile the believers with God. He is the person in the middle of the road, whether you like it or not, and is the only way. You have that knowledge and are accountable. There will be justice in the end and you will stand before God in judgment for what you’ve done in your life. However, redemption is a free gift. You won’t earn it by doing good things. You just have to accept it. QuoteThose of us who are not Christian are just as firm and true in our own belief systems (whatever they may be) as you are in your Christianity, so to try to convert us or convince us we are wrong shows great disrespect for our belief systems which are equally valid as yours from our stances. I respect your views enough to never try to 'convert' you, have the same respect for others of different beliefs. I fully respect your firm position and anyone else of another religion or no religion at all. Neither I nor any other Christian will ever convert anyone. They should also not take any credit whatsoever for any who do decide to convert. I’m just presenting the information. Nothing can happen in your heart in reference to conversion without God’s influence. If I happen to be influential in someone’s decision, it is merely because I am acting in the capacity of an instrument for God’s purpose. He is in control. Again, I fully respect yours and other’s positions in this discussion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,150 #146 July 9, 2004 QuoteNo SinterKlaas?! Blasphemy Where I grew up Sinterklaas is different from Santa. Sinterklaas is for real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #147 July 9, 2004 the Jews believe that Jesus did not meet the criteria of the Messiah...who better to know that then they? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #148 July 9, 2004 True. I agree with your statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #149 July 9, 2004 Quotethe Jews believe that Jesus did not meet the criteria of the Messiah...who better to know that then they? They were looking for a Messiah to come and conquer the Romans. A warrior who would deliver them from their dominatation. The "practicing" Jews (in the religious sense) missed the boat just like everyone else. Gotta go. Be back later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #150 July 9, 2004 From a couple of Jewish websites: First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15) Jesus was a Jew. He met this criteria. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10) To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah. if Christians are right, Jesus had no biological father, and therefore could not have been a member of the tribe of Judah. If, in fact, he did have a biological father, there would have to be a fundamental flaw in Christian doctrine. He either meets the Jewish criteria and has a human father, or he meets the Christian criteria and does not. He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13) The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether! According to Christianity, Jesus had no human father. Therefore, for Jews, the discussion of Jesus as the Messiah stops here. Nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does the Royal Blood Line continue by adoption. The Jewish Scriptures clearly state that a person’s genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one’s PHYSICAL father (Numbers 1:18 Jeremiah 33:17) bloodlines cannot be passed by adoption according to scripture. Therefore, Jesus cannot be of the line of David, and does not meet the criteria Nowhere in Hebrew Scripture does it ever say that during the Messianic era, HaMoshiach will come back a second time to fulfill the events that had to occur during his time on Earth. And nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does it say that HaMoshiach would be a deity. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being with no connotation of deity or divinity. One more point, nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does it ever tell that G-d (HaShem) would come to earth as a human being, a man and die, as a human sacrifice. Biblical References Lev.18:21; Deut. 12:3; Jer. 7:31 & 32:35; 2 Kings 16:3 & 17; Ezekiel 20:31, and Psalms 106:32-38 The criteria: 1. Must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 2. Must be a direct descendent of both King David and King Solomon (l Chronicles 17:11; Psalm 89:29-38; Jeremiah 33:17; ll Samuel 7:12-16; l Chronicles 22:10 and ll Chronicles 7:18) 3. Must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel (Isaiah 27:12-13 & 11:12) 4. Must rebuild the Jewish Temple (the 3rd Temple) (Micah 4:1) 5. Must bring in “world peace” (Isaiah 2:4; 11:6 & Micah 4:3) 6. Must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve the One God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9; Isaiah 40:5; and Zephaniah 3:9) All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28: And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore. If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah" according to the Jews. A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition. 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peregrinerose 0 #143 July 9, 2004 QuoteI don't consider it a shame for others to believe or think differently than I do. I shouldn't be the one anyone puts their faith in. If you do, then you'll probably be in for a very bumpy ride. I'm wrong every day. If I didn't care about the welfare of others, however, I wouldn't speak up at all. I do consider it a shame that so many can't see, for whatever reason, the truth spelled out and proven to be true by Jesus. I consider it a shame that others don't believe and think like him. There are many roads you can take in life. There is only one that leads to God. The others don't. If you saw someone standing in the middle of the road talking on their cell phone and not paying attention with an oncoming car about to smash into them, wouldn't you want to warn them to get out of the way? That's the idea. I have to disagree with this. Christianity (or any other religion) is a product of culture and geography. Every religion states that theirs is the only way to God and the rest are shit out of luck. Which one you believe in depends on which you are raised in and exposed to. Personally, if God is so petty as to allow those of only one faith through the pearly gates, I'm not interested. The Bible and any other religious text is written with divine inspiration, not divine dictation, so there are many contradictions and slanted perspectives, it is human nature for this to be. To follow the beliefs of other humans just because they tell me to doesn't fit well with my psyche. As others have mentioned, organized religion causes more hatred, misunderstanding, war and pain than many other things in life. To be part of any organized religion means that I tacetly give approval to these things, and that I can not do. I very strongly disagree with the person in the middle of the road analogy. Any God who is infinite, all knowing, and all powerful could not possibly be understood by any human, so to claim that one faith or perspective is right above all others could not possibly be realistic. Probably all faiths are wrong, but all also right, in their own ways. Those of us who are not Christian are just as firm and true in our own belief systems (whatever they may be) as you are in your Christianity, so to try to convert us or convince us we are wrong shows great disrespect for our belief systems which are equally valid as yours from our stances. I respect your views enough to never try to 'convert' you, have the same respect for others of different beliefs. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #144 July 9, 2004 QuoteThere are many roads you can take in life. There is only one that leads to God. The others don't. If you saw someone standing in the middle of the road talking on their cell phone and not paying attention with an oncoming car about to smash into them, wouldn't you want to warn them to get out of the way? That's the idea. I can kind of understand your analogy, but we need to be a bit clearer on things. The oncoming car that you believe is about to smash into me is invisible. You've never seen one of these invisible cars smash into anyone, nor has anyone else. You and I both have heard that these invisible cars exist and that they can smash into people, however we responded differently to those stories in that you believe them and I don't. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #145 July 9, 2004 QuoteI have to disagree with this. Christianity (or any other religion) is a product of culture and geography. Every religion states that theirs is the only way to God and the rest are shit out of luck. Which one you believe in depends on which you are raised in and exposed to. I don’t think that Christianity says that everyone else is “out of luck” as you say. I agree that there are many, who have never heard of Jesus by being brought up in a different part of the world, in another religion, or in no religion at all and, therefore, might not be held to the same standard as I am in reference to salvation. I don’t know what God has in store for them. I do know that all people have been made known to God’s existence through his creation, their sense of self and their innate basic knowledge of right and wrong (conscience). I also know, however, that those of us who have heard of or have had access to the truth will be held accountable and have no excuse. Also, I’m sure every religion out there claims to be the correct one, however, only Jesus proved his way to be the only way. No other religion has the verifying properties of fulfilled prophesy, miracles, eye-witness testimony of martyrs, torture, crucifixion, death, and resurrection of its lead figure who claimed to be God himself. That’s what sets Christianity apart from all the rest. It’s not about the “religion.” It’s all about Jesus Christ. QuotePersonally, if God is so petty as to allow those of only one faith through the pearly gates, I'm not interested. The Bible and any other religious text is written with divine inspiration, not divine dictation, so there are many contradictions and slanted perspectives, it is human nature for this to be. To follow the beliefs of other humans just because they tell me to doesn't fit well with my psyche. You stated yourself that the Bible is written with divine inspiration. Sure, for various reasons, the text is presented in different ways by the different authors. However, “with divine inspiration”, the central theme of salvation through Christ from his own words is presented over and over, by different authors, in many different books of the Bible. Therefore, it’s not that you need to believe just because other humans are telling you what to do. It’s that you need to believe because God says so. QuoteAs others have mentioned, organized religion causes more hatred, misunderstanding, war and pain than many other things in life. To be part of any organized religion means that I tacetly give approval to these things, and that I can not do. I agree, if “religion” is the central part of your belief (whatever religion you may be referring to). First and foremost, you should look to God and, with Jesus in your heart; you then come together in the body of Christ (the Church). The religion or the religious organization should never supercede God. That is also known as idolatry and has been, as you say, misused throughout the centuries causing hatred, war, and pain. QuoteI very strongly disagree with the person in the middle of the road analogy. Any God who is infinite, all knowing, and all powerful could not possibly be understood by any human, so to claim that one faith or perspective is right above all others could not possibly be realistic. Probably all faiths are wrong, but all also right, in their own ways. You are correct in that no human can understand God completely. Also, because of the sinful nature, no human can possibly serve as the “perfect penitent” and account for the sins of people where “justice” is necessary. God became man (Jesus), gave us a frame of reference to his character, and did what God himself, due to his completely holy nature, could not do. Repent perfectly, because he didn’t need to, on behalf of the entire human race and, therefore, reconcile the believers with God. He is the person in the middle of the road, whether you like it or not, and is the only way. You have that knowledge and are accountable. There will be justice in the end and you will stand before God in judgment for what you’ve done in your life. However, redemption is a free gift. You won’t earn it by doing good things. You just have to accept it. QuoteThose of us who are not Christian are just as firm and true in our own belief systems (whatever they may be) as you are in your Christianity, so to try to convert us or convince us we are wrong shows great disrespect for our belief systems which are equally valid as yours from our stances. I respect your views enough to never try to 'convert' you, have the same respect for others of different beliefs. I fully respect your firm position and anyone else of another religion or no religion at all. Neither I nor any other Christian will ever convert anyone. They should also not take any credit whatsoever for any who do decide to convert. I’m just presenting the information. Nothing can happen in your heart in reference to conversion without God’s influence. If I happen to be influential in someone’s decision, it is merely because I am acting in the capacity of an instrument for God’s purpose. He is in control. Again, I fully respect yours and other’s positions in this discussion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,150 #146 July 9, 2004 QuoteNo SinterKlaas?! Blasphemy Where I grew up Sinterklaas is different from Santa. Sinterklaas is for real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #147 July 9, 2004 the Jews believe that Jesus did not meet the criteria of the Messiah...who better to know that then they? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #148 July 9, 2004 True. I agree with your statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #149 July 9, 2004 Quotethe Jews believe that Jesus did not meet the criteria of the Messiah...who better to know that then they? They were looking for a Messiah to come and conquer the Romans. A warrior who would deliver them from their dominatation. The "practicing" Jews (in the religious sense) missed the boat just like everyone else. Gotta go. Be back later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #150 July 9, 2004 From a couple of Jewish websites: First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15) Jesus was a Jew. He met this criteria. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10) To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah. if Christians are right, Jesus had no biological father, and therefore could not have been a member of the tribe of Judah. If, in fact, he did have a biological father, there would have to be a fundamental flaw in Christian doctrine. He either meets the Jewish criteria and has a human father, or he meets the Christian criteria and does not. He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13) The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether! According to Christianity, Jesus had no human father. Therefore, for Jews, the discussion of Jesus as the Messiah stops here. Nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does the Royal Blood Line continue by adoption. The Jewish Scriptures clearly state that a person’s genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one’s PHYSICAL father (Numbers 1:18 Jeremiah 33:17) bloodlines cannot be passed by adoption according to scripture. Therefore, Jesus cannot be of the line of David, and does not meet the criteria Nowhere in Hebrew Scripture does it ever say that during the Messianic era, HaMoshiach will come back a second time to fulfill the events that had to occur during his time on Earth. And nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does it say that HaMoshiach would be a deity. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being with no connotation of deity or divinity. One more point, nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does it ever tell that G-d (HaShem) would come to earth as a human being, a man and die, as a human sacrifice. Biblical References Lev.18:21; Deut. 12:3; Jer. 7:31 & 32:35; 2 Kings 16:3 & 17; Ezekiel 20:31, and Psalms 106:32-38 The criteria: 1. Must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 2. Must be a direct descendent of both King David and King Solomon (l Chronicles 17:11; Psalm 89:29-38; Jeremiah 33:17; ll Samuel 7:12-16; l Chronicles 22:10 and ll Chronicles 7:18) 3. Must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel (Isaiah 27:12-13 & 11:12) 4. Must rebuild the Jewish Temple (the 3rd Temple) (Micah 4:1) 5. Must bring in “world peace” (Isaiah 2:4; 11:6 & Micah 4:3) 6. Must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve the One God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9; Isaiah 40:5; and Zephaniah 3:9) All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28: And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore. If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah" according to the Jews. A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition. 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Nightingale 0 #147 July 9, 2004 the Jews believe that Jesus did not meet the criteria of the Messiah...who better to know that then they? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #148 July 9, 2004 True. I agree with your statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #149 July 9, 2004 Quotethe Jews believe that Jesus did not meet the criteria of the Messiah...who better to know that then they? They were looking for a Messiah to come and conquer the Romans. A warrior who would deliver them from their dominatation. The "practicing" Jews (in the religious sense) missed the boat just like everyone else. Gotta go. Be back later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #150 July 9, 2004 From a couple of Jewish websites: First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15) Jesus was a Jew. He met this criteria. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10) To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah. if Christians are right, Jesus had no biological father, and therefore could not have been a member of the tribe of Judah. If, in fact, he did have a biological father, there would have to be a fundamental flaw in Christian doctrine. He either meets the Jewish criteria and has a human father, or he meets the Christian criteria and does not. He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13) The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether! According to Christianity, Jesus had no human father. Therefore, for Jews, the discussion of Jesus as the Messiah stops here. Nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does the Royal Blood Line continue by adoption. The Jewish Scriptures clearly state that a person’s genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one’s PHYSICAL father (Numbers 1:18 Jeremiah 33:17) bloodlines cannot be passed by adoption according to scripture. Therefore, Jesus cannot be of the line of David, and does not meet the criteria Nowhere in Hebrew Scripture does it ever say that during the Messianic era, HaMoshiach will come back a second time to fulfill the events that had to occur during his time on Earth. And nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does it say that HaMoshiach would be a deity. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being with no connotation of deity or divinity. One more point, nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does it ever tell that G-d (HaShem) would come to earth as a human being, a man and die, as a human sacrifice. Biblical References Lev.18:21; Deut. 12:3; Jer. 7:31 & 32:35; 2 Kings 16:3 & 17; Ezekiel 20:31, and Psalms 106:32-38 The criteria: 1. Must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 2. Must be a direct descendent of both King David and King Solomon (l Chronicles 17:11; Psalm 89:29-38; Jeremiah 33:17; ll Samuel 7:12-16; l Chronicles 22:10 and ll Chronicles 7:18) 3. Must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel (Isaiah 27:12-13 & 11:12) 4. Must rebuild the Jewish Temple (the 3rd Temple) (Micah 4:1) 5. Must bring in “world peace” (Isaiah 2:4; 11:6 & Micah 4:3) 6. Must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve the One God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9; Isaiah 40:5; and Zephaniah 3:9) All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28: And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore. If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah" according to the Jews. A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 6 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Nightingale 0 #150 July 9, 2004 From a couple of Jewish websites: First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15) Jesus was a Jew. He met this criteria. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10) To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah. if Christians are right, Jesus had no biological father, and therefore could not have been a member of the tribe of Judah. If, in fact, he did have a biological father, there would have to be a fundamental flaw in Christian doctrine. He either meets the Jewish criteria and has a human father, or he meets the Christian criteria and does not. He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13) The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether! According to Christianity, Jesus had no human father. Therefore, for Jews, the discussion of Jesus as the Messiah stops here. Nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does the Royal Blood Line continue by adoption. The Jewish Scriptures clearly state that a person’s genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one’s PHYSICAL father (Numbers 1:18 Jeremiah 33:17) bloodlines cannot be passed by adoption according to scripture. Therefore, Jesus cannot be of the line of David, and does not meet the criteria Nowhere in Hebrew Scripture does it ever say that during the Messianic era, HaMoshiach will come back a second time to fulfill the events that had to occur during his time on Earth. And nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does it say that HaMoshiach would be a deity. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being with no connotation of deity or divinity. One more point, nowhere in Hebrew Scriptures does it ever tell that G-d (HaShem) would come to earth as a human being, a man and die, as a human sacrifice. Biblical References Lev.18:21; Deut. 12:3; Jer. 7:31 & 32:35; 2 Kings 16:3 & 17; Ezekiel 20:31, and Psalms 106:32-38 The criteria: 1. Must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 2. Must be a direct descendent of both King David and King Solomon (l Chronicles 17:11; Psalm 89:29-38; Jeremiah 33:17; ll Samuel 7:12-16; l Chronicles 22:10 and ll Chronicles 7:18) 3. Must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel (Isaiah 27:12-13 & 11:12) 4. Must rebuild the Jewish Temple (the 3rd Temple) (Micah 4:1) 5. Must bring in “world peace” (Isaiah 2:4; 11:6 & Micah 4:3) 6. Must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve the One God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9; Isaiah 40:5; and Zephaniah 3:9) All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28: And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore. If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah" according to the Jews. A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
