Canopy Nazi Rant!

[skybytch 259]

Got your copy of July's Parachutist mag yet? Check this out, from the Safety Check column, written by Kevin Gibson.

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Equipment sellers must also realize that a 1:1 wing loading was too much for a jumper's first rig in 1992 when this all started and it still is ten years later.

Okay, so I agree with him there - if you've read any of my posts on first main canopy sizing you already know that. So why am I ranting on this subject?

I'm ranting because nowhere in that column does he mention the others who have equal responsibility in seeing to it that new skydivers choose main canopies sized so they can make mistakes or find themselves in bad situations under canopy and still walk away pain free from the landing. Who are those others? Instructors, riggers and anyone else who takes it upon themselves to give canopy selection advice to those just off student status - a group that includes many USPA representatives, such as board members and S&TA's.

It happened again today - I got a phone call from someone just off student status asking about gear. This person had been told by "experts" (i.e. instructors) at his dz to purchase a main that he would load at 1.0:1. No biggee, right? Well... here's the rest of the story. He's jumping at a very high altitude, and his last 5 jumps on a canopy loaded at .8:1 resulted in one stand up and four biffs. And yet some people apparently think 1.0:1 is reasonable for this jumper.

I was talking with another jumper today who told me that when he got off student status someone who is a USPA board member told him to buy a canopy that he'd load at almost 1.2.

I'd love to be able to sell new jumpers mains that they will load at .8 - 1.0. But unfortunately, I can't. Why? Because those new jumpers are being told by people they know and respect (AFF instructors, riggers, etc) that they will be "just fine" under canopies loaded at 1.1-1.25. Think about it - who are you going to listen to? The "God" who taught you everything you know about skydiving (very little at 20 jumps, btw)? Or an anonymous voice on the telephone?

So what should I do? Go ahead and sell them what they've been told to buy even though I know the likelihood of them getting hurt or killed has been increased dramatically by their canopy choice? Or refuse to sell it to them knowing that they can make another phone call or two and get it anyway?

Sorry, I'm just in a mood today. I guess I'll close with another quote from Kevin Gibson's column - a quote that I think every jumper needs to take to heart. Note - emphasis added by me...

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Finally, all jumpers can help end the cycle that helped get us here. Skydiving culture needs to change. We need to make it cool again for newer people to jump larger canopies at first and learn more about canopy flight before downsizing.

[AggieDave 6]

Just send him a Crossfire2 loaded at 2.5:1, he'll figure it out...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TomAiello 25]

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We need to make it cool again for newer people to jump larger canopies at first and learn more about canopy flight before downsizing.

Tell them their practicing for BASE jumping. All the young jumpers seem to think it's cool to BASE jump, and we load our canopies at .65-.75. And as we gain experience, we size UP, not DOWN. I started on a 265, and now I'm up to 290's and 310's.

Seriously, the "tiny canopy" mentality gets lots of people hurt when they start BASE jumping.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[bbarnhouse 0]

Lisa~
All you can do is give them the information, ultimately it's their responsibility. If they don't buy it from you, they will buy it from someone else.
I know really sucks.....but there you have it!

[f1freak 0]

Yep, this sport does have a way of weeding out the week (or people who will not use their brain). sad but true

HAVE FUN...
...JUST DONT DIE

[billvon 2,400]

>And as we gain experience, we size UP, not DOWN.

Yeah, funny how that works. When I started I had a Pursuit 215 that I figured was plenty big. Now I have a Mojo 240 and I think it's too small.

[ramon 0]

You are right. There is a change in the sport and it is like a mad fever to downsize. suddenly people off student status are 1.3 etc... It is so common place and there are so many 100 jump experts telling newbies what to buy (or 800 jump newbie instructors with all their jumps in the last year).

We really do have a responsibility each an every one of us to give our true opinion, and if you've been to the BIC maybe youcan give it without hurting feelings.
There is one rule that should never be over looked.

"If you haven't been standing up all your landings you shouldn't downsize" (more importantly if this is after student gear stage)

ramon

P.S. I found a big 97 VX..

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[dove 0]

Lisa - I know you have a tendency to want to save the world. And while that's noble, it's impossible for one fantastic skydivin' chick to do all by herself. At least you can rest assured that you've done your part. I'm quite positive you've already saved more lives than you (or your customers) realize. So for that I'd like to thank you. And for the record, my first canopy was loaded at .9 and I kept it for 300 jumps before downsizing because someone like you told me that I have the rest of my life to skydive.... IF I skydive safely. What good is a cool-as-shit-hanky-sized canopy if you're hooked up to life support?

grateful,
dove

P.S. I wouldn't take Kevin's comments to be an attack at all. He's just not like that. He too just wants everyone to be safe and ALIVE!

[Scoby 0]

Well, for what it's worth, your previous posts on the subject have made me reconsider what to get. My plan was originally to purchase a 170 (I weigh about 155lbs), but I've now decided to get a 190 instead. I've also decided to take the canopy class at Perris based on the posts of various people on this forum. So your message is getting through to some people, at least.

[Viking 0]

Lisa if it makes ya feel any better i am still only getting a 210 mainly b/c of you and Bill.

I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

[indyz 1]

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It happened again today - I got a phone call from someone just off student status asking about gear. This person had been told by "experts" (i.e. instructors) at his dz to purchase a main that he would load at 1.0:1.

At the dropzone I've been jumping at during the summer, students are required to do some coach jumps beyond graduating from AFF or S/L. This is the point where they transition from ripcord rigs to more modern rigs with throwouts and smaller canopies. The DZ has a few different size mains: a Sabre 170, Sabre2 170, Sabre2 150, and some larger canopies.

Yesterday a JM was teaching a student the transition gear. He asked him how much he weighed, and the student said 160-something pounds. The Sabre2 170 was in the plane, I don't know where the Sabre 170 was. He told the student about the 150 and said that it was faster than what he had been jumping (square F111), but it was a windy day, so it should make the landing easier. He then asked the student, "Do you think you can handle it?"

How many students would tell their JM, "No, I don't think I can handle it?"

[Donna 0]

When I went to buy my first gear I read everything I could about it online and decided a Triathlon 190 sounded good for me. (Loaded around .86) Most people and instructors at my DZ agreed that it sounded about right. A few people did question why I was going so big but just casually. No one there tried to talk me into going smaller. When I first got my rig I was having trouble with the top of it pushing against my helmet while arching keeping my head down a bit. I talked to a lot of people about this problem and I was shocked at how many tried to talk me into going smaller. A guy from Sunpath talked to me on the phone for over an hour one day trying to convince me that I needed to get a 150 Spectre. (I had been asking if a Javelin would give me the same trouble.) Then I talked to a DZO who uses the same kind of rig I had and she basically said that she thought I was crazy going that big and that if I had been her student she would have suggested a 150 main with a 143 reserve (I got a 193). Even after hearing my reasons - I'm older, have a bad knee, only plan on being a weekend jumper and I'm a cautious wimpy jumper they were still telling me things like that I'd be backing up on windy days. I told them no I wouldn't because if it was pretty windy I'd be staying on the ground. I refused to be swayed by these people. Luckily my rig manufacturer was able to make some adjustments to my rig and solved my dilemma. I'm just grateful that I had a supportive DZ and that at my age I've finally realized that I need to listen to my inner self and not worry about what others think.

Keep on ranting, Lisa. I bet you are reaching more people than you realize! Keep up the good work!

[scottbre 0]

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"If you haven't been standing up all your landings you shouldn't downsize"

I wholeheartedly agree with this idea, and my experience has shown it to be a good idea. I was consistently standing up landings on my Raider 220 and when I got my spectre 170 I had a few butt sliding landings. They didn't hurt as I had already leveled out when I was on my butt, but I had just flared too late. It was just a question of dialing in my flare so that it is at the right place and time. I'm glad that I had the experience and skill that I did from flying my raider 220 (the boat that it is ) because that made it way easier for me to adjust and get a better feel on my new canopy.

Now if I could just get a clean count when I am the one bombing the door, maybe I wouldn't have to worry so much about getting busted up.

"Your mother's full of stupidjuice!"
My Art Project

[billvon 2,400]

>"If you haven't been standing up all your landings you shouldn't
> downsize" (more importantly if this is after student gear stage)

I would add that if you can't really fly your canopy, including advanced manuevers like flat and flare turns, you shouldn't downsize. If you don't learn on the larger canopy, you will be much less likely to learn on the smaller canopy.

[IronMike 0]

Lisa,
You and your fellows at Square 1,2,3 job is to sell equipment. I can honestly tell you Blue tries desperately to talk me into a 170 instead of the 150 I bought. I chose the 150, knowing she knows way more than I do. I luckily did not get hut, only because I attended the Team Extreme Canopy School.
I do not consider myself stupid, nor do I want to get hurt. I just did not want to waste money on a canopy I wouldnt want in a couple months.
People are responsible for themselves. They should know that everyone at Square 1 (except that Canadian Dipshit Tristin) has seen just about everything and If they decline their advice, they are morons. I know you care SOOOO much about people you don't even know but you aint their mama......

Ill spank you with my fly swatter if you aint careful.....RESPECT MY AUTHORATI!!!!! (inside joke)


Mike

[TequilaGirl 0]

We shouldn't forget either - that sometimes we don't have the luxury of landing on the dropzone......just because someone can land their canopy safely (and stand up their landing) on the DZ doesn't mean they can off the DZ......

[freeflir29 0]

Lisa.....I applaud your efforts to educate people on sensible canopy choices. However, if I were you, I would sell anyone any canopy they wanted to buy. You say you have 5 jumps, weigh about 240, and would like a Cobalt 65??? You realize you're going to die right? OK...as long as we established that. Please allow 6-12 weeks for delivery.
I really don't think it is your job to be a "Canopy Cop" Education....NOT regulation. We live in a free country....lets keep it that way. Remember, MOST PEOPLE ARE STUPID.

[Slappie 9]

Lisa, this is a hard one for me. I was taught how to skydive under a Sabre170 for all my student jumps and I've been under a 170 ever since. I'm not downsizing anytime soon probably not for another 200 jumps and the way I jump that'll be in 2005 {average 4.17 jumps a month} I am 175lbs and about 205 at the door. I'm loading my Sabre170 now at 1.21:1 I'm standing all my jumps up with the exception to some crosswind landings on my part. {brain farts upon setup} only 3 I'll admit too

I believe whole heartedly in larger student and first rig canopies. I wouldn't want to put some of the students I've seen under anything with this type of wing load. I've also seen some like myself with the confidence and ability to fly. I wasn't pressured to jump anything smaller and haven't wanted too. I do believe the JM has to have the ability to spot the students who need the extra help and those who they think can handle a higher wing load.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

[diverdriver 5]

I don't know. I think Lisa is ok for not selling something to a customer if she thinks they can't handle it. She's trying to take some responsibility for Square 1's image too. Do gun shops recommend training for first time gun owners? I think some require it. So, she isn't wrong for doing what she's doing.

Chris

[nws01 0]

I disagree. I only have 200 jumps and I fly a Crossfire 2 loaded at 1.8. It is ok though because I am a canopy "student" and I do hop and pops all the time. I feel that some people like me can handle this type of loading and WE WILL NOT get hurt....j/k...

[AggieDave 6]

hahaha

I was thinking of a way to say that but you beat me too it...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[freeflir29 0]

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I do hop and pops all the time

Yeah...cause landing is waaaay differen't when you do a hop and pop.....

[skybytch 259]

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However, if I were you, I would sell anyone any canopy they wanted to buy

Then it's a real good thing for both the sport and your wallet that you don't sell gear for a living. Unfortunately, while sometimes I'd just love to sell that idiot whatever he wants, due to the legal climate in the US I can't. Ever been sued? We have - recently we were named as defendants in a suit and all we did was sell the gear to the person who sold the gear to the person who got hurt! Know how much it costs to just get out of a lawsuit? A couple thousand dollars minimum. And that's not how much it would cost if it went to a jury and the decision was against us - that's just to get dismissed as a defendant. Considering how little we make on each canopy sale, it's not worth it.

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Education....NOT regulation. We live in a free country....lets keep it that way. Remember, MOST PEOPLE ARE STUPID.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that needs to change if we want to see fewer deaths and injuries under perfectly good canopies. You may think I'm a "Canopy Cop" or that I'm trying to be everyone's mom... honestly I'm far more concerned with the company I work for staying in business so I'll still have a job.

And then there's the moral angle. Ever seen one of those stupid people auger in? Now think how cool it would be if that stupid person was a friend of yours and you got to be out there helping to scrape him up. Every stupid person out there is SOMEBODY'S friend. Think about it - and be honest - how would YOU feel if you sold someone a canopy that you knew was too aggressive for their experience (or even just wondered "is it?") and they went out and died under it?

It's EVERY jumper's responsibility to encourage new jumpers to buy canopies that will allow them to walk away from the little screwups that we ALL make during our first couple hundred jumps or so. This combined with better and more widely available canopy control instruction will make a difference in the number of deaths and injuries from landing accidents. Saying that people are stupid and they should be able to buy whatever they think they want just continues the status quo - and right now the status quo is taking far too many of our new jumpers out of the sport.

[Muenkel 0]

Lisa,

I really think your expertise should matter to your customers and you have every right sharing it with them. I am in sales and I have many times had to tell a client that their ideas were not necessarily the best (of course I find a diplomatic way to say it). I as a student do not take the advice of one jumpmaster as gospel. I am asking questions of anyone that will listen to me, so I can make an informed, intelligent decision when it comes time for me to buy gear.

On a side note: Have you considered using your expertise and getting involved with the USPA?

_________________________________________
Chris

[nws01 0]

Quit sucking up Muenkel.