diverdriver 5 #26 July 9, 2002 EXACTLY!! Look at all the backups and redundancy we have on airplanes. It is there for the "what ifs". You don't depend on it. You don't train to depend on it. But it's there. And you choose to only fly with all redundancies in place. Sure, some things can be "defered" but we are talking complex aircraft systems. A sport rig is pretty simple system wise so choosing to jump without a certain level of redundancy is not acceptable to some people. I started out jumping a rig with a Sentinel AAD. Any youngins remember them? Pin pushers? Soon I bought rigs without any AAD. I accepted that risk at the time. Now, seven years later and about 700 jumps, I choose to only jump with a properly inspected and functioning Cypres. I can only see pond swooping as a skydiving activity that you would not want a Cypres installed. But any hop-n-pop or high altitude jump I do I figure that I will do it with a Cypres installed on turned on. That is the level of redundancy I have chosen for my skydiving activity. Chris Schindler ATP D-19012 www.DiverDriver.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #27 July 9, 2002 >That attitude sort of baffled me, sure they're great, but why >would someone have that sort of attitude. Well, everyone has different limits of risk. You may be the only breadwinner for your family, and not be willing to take any increase in risk, or you may be a 22 year old guy who jumps a VX79 - in which case forgetting to pull is probably not going to be what kills you. My acid test is that I ask if someone will do just one jump of their choosing (hop and pop, solo, whatever) without a working AAD. If they say absolutely not, they might get killed, I think there's a good chance they are relying on the device to give more protection than it can. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #28 July 9, 2002 And now for my .02... I remember after my cutaway, Vinnie P. asked me: "Why didn't you wait until your cypres fired?". I responded "I didn't even recall I had one. I pulled silver. Wasn't I supposed to pull silver?"...and only once he looked at me really strangely did I realize he was joking. Well, the look and the comment "It would have been more paperwork if there was a cypres fire"...LOL...and it wasn't until the next day that I remembered the RSL, too....I was so intent on pulling and throwing, in the right order... I won't jump without one, armed and, to the best of my knowledge, functioning. Yes, I understand that there are situations in which a Cypres could exacerbate the problem. But I also know there are several circumstances wherein my life has a better chance if it fires...I think, on balance, that I am marginally safer with one than without one. It is a backup-last chance sort of thing, and I hope I can see the chain forming and break it before I ever need it. But if not, it's there, and I am more comfortable with it. Like I said, it's worth about .02.....and you can keep the change! Ciels and Pinks- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #29 July 9, 2002 My favorite reason for not having a cypress: "My reserve is so small, if it opened while I was unconscious, the landing might not kill me, but I will have wished it did." I have and use my cypress, but have jumped without one.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #30 July 9, 2002 Yeah Miche!! Ever notice when someone asks you "a penny for your thoughts" and you throw in your .02 cents worth......well where in the hell does the other penny go? Bwahhhhhhh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #31 July 9, 2002 Quotewell where in the hell does the other penny go? Bwahhhhhhh [Cool] Why, the other penny ends up in the same place that those single sox and hangers go... Ciels and Pinks- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #32 July 9, 2002 OK- Here's MY .02 on AAD's - and MAYBE it might carry a little weight - And I don't gave a rat's ass about getting flamed- I've been in worse situations- But I have to tell ya I only have 65 jumps, 1 cutaway and------- one AAD fire- on jump # 15 in a static line progression - I'm baring my soul here folks- If any of you want the details, PM me - I'll be glad to share with folks who are sincerely interested in learning why AAD's are a good idea- It was an FXC, by the way- And in case you're wondering- I ride motorcycle without a helmet, and jump with a full-face- Wear a seatbelt in the car- Have a dytter and a keep an eye my altimeter- Have a Cypres and won't jump without one- Also- things are timed so I will have my canopy in for new lines the same time the Cypes is in for new batteries and 8-year check, and I'll be having a new jumpsuit made- I'll just have to pony up a few extra bucks for rental gear in the meantime to stay current- It all happens in the dead of winter, so if I get a chance to jump once a month anyway I'll be lucky- I don't think I'm the only guy here who owes his life to an AAD but it seems to this casual observer an awful lot strong opinions abound- No sweat - I respect all opinions - I ride without a helmet. Blue ones everyones!!!! --Lenny Easy Does It Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #33 July 9, 2002 I have a CYPRES on my rig but I will jump without one. I do like having the added peace of mind that it gives but I don't depend on it to save my life for me. That's what my handles are for. The CYPRES is there in case I'm not for some reason (unconscious, dislocation, etc...) KrisSky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hisgoofyness 0 #34 July 9, 2002 i am still brand new in this sport and see many jumpers of lower experience that refuse to jump without one i for one am not one of those people. as a matter of fact, just this weekend i did two jumps without one. i am in the process of transitioning to my canopy size ( a tri 190 ) and the only rig that was available to rent that was smaller than what i had been jumping, and was a throw out, and was not a detuned canopy, did not have a cypres my instructor said it was up to me if i wanted to jump that rig or jump student gear, well i didnt want to continue on detuned canopies in ripcord rigs, so i opted to jump the rig without a cypres at first i had a moment of unsureness, but decided that since i was only doing solos that day anyway, it was already up to me to save my own ass ( as it is on every jump ) afterwards i actually felt a little better about myself, i dont want to get to the point where i depend on any device to save my life i have a cypres being installed in my new rig that is on order, therefore i am not against aad's, i just look at it as a "what if" situational enhancer i hope that i can say i spent all that money for nothing, as i hope i never have a cypres fire hisgoofyness Goudha is for Buddha, and that's good enough for me! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #35 July 9, 2002 Quote i dont want to get to the point where i depend on any device to save my life does that include a rig? Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hisgoofyness 0 #36 July 9, 2002 Quotedoes that include a rig? ok... outside of the necessary devices needed hisgoofyness Goudha is for Buddha, and that's good enough for me! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #37 July 9, 2002 I won't jump without a Cypres, although I did 30 jumps on rounds without one. But I was single and in the Army then. Now, I jump with a Cypres. It is part of my "deal" with my wife. She isn't that comfortable with my skydiving, so every additional safety device (Cypres, RSL, audible alti.) I use, she gets some small extra level of acceptance. So I jump with the safety equipment. There is relatively little down side, and for me, the benefits still outweigh the drawbacks anyway. That said, if I was single, I would be willing to jump without one (still would on certain jumps), but I'd still prefer to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slappie 9 #38 July 9, 2002 This has been beat to death over and over again. Here's my .02 I just bought a rig for one hell of a deal! It didn't come with a cypress. I am in the process of paying off the rig and jumping it without one. When I can afford one yes I will jump with it and it will be on. I feel safe in the air with or without it. Yes I want one but at this time the cost is to much. So I feel it's better for me at this point in my skydiving to jump without one and stay current then sit it out for a few months until I can afford one. I know the argument about "isn't your life worth $1000..." I agree with that. If I had the cash it would be another story. Some of you people here make alot more money then some of us others. I will and do jump without one and I have jumped with one. The one thing I will not jump with is an RSL. That's a whole other argument/discussion.. "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #39 July 9, 2002 Have you heard of Jan Davis the BASE jumper? She did a protest jump off of El Capitan. Basicly it's as high as a skydive. She jumped gear that she did not jump normally. The pilot chute was in a different location than her normal rig. She went in groping for the pilot chute all the way. Now.....I'm not saying BASE rigs need Cypreses. What I'm saying is that a highly experienced jumper had the moment get away from her with changing gear. So, your idea that "it's just a solo" is not a reason, in my opinion, to jump without a functioning AAD. Especially when changing types of gear. The human brain is a funny thing. It has the ability to hone in and concentrate on things with great detail. However, this means that something else may get missed in the moment. I have two jumpers from my aircraft alive because they had functioning cypreses. That's two people that had the moment get away from them. Both were doing two-ways. Do you think you can only collide with something on 300-ways? What about colliding with the aircraft on exit? Brad Foster was doing a solo exit and hit his head on the horizontal stabilizer of a King Air. We will never know if he died on that impact. But for sure, a functioning Cypres may have changed the outcome of that incident. I bought my Cypres when they were $1,250 for a one-pin in 1997. Now you can buy them for as low as $850. Excuse me but that's CHEAP Insurance! What if you're diabetic and don't know it? What if you have your first episode just as you exit. Do your family and friends deserve to pick up your bloody, broken body off the ground? Sorry to be graphic, but I've seen the results. And you stand in the field going "Damn, why didn't he just turn that Cypres on?" "Damn, why didn't she buy that Cypres and have it installed for this record attempt?" There are things out there that you can't see coming by just doing solos. I ask you to rethink your decision about jumping without a Cypres installed and turned on for any jump. It's all about peer pressure.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #40 July 9, 2002 There was a story not too long ago where a fellow skydiver jumped out and hit his head on the plain knocking him out. Had he had a Cypres, he might have lived. I have always jumped a Cypres, and turned down rigs that didn't have one. Even on a solo you can knock yourself out. Safety is number one, in my opinion.7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #41 July 9, 2002 Quotei dont want to get to the point where i depend on any device to save my life Most cars now adays have airbags installed in both passenger and driver's sides. Will they save your life in case of an accident? Who knows, they might. Hope you don't depend on them to do so. But it sure is nice to know that they are there. along with the seat belts, and other safety measures. Like Pippy would put it, "Safe is Cool!"7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brucej 0 #42 July 9, 2002 I agree. I put a Cypres in two years ago after twelve years without. I would have no problem jumping without, but it is one additional safety device that may save a life. I know I can pull, but incidental contact may prevent that. Blue skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #43 July 9, 2002 QuoteShe went in groping for the pilot chute all the way It would have been easier on a skydiving rig. Misplaced reserve handles are rare. That said....I did have a bit of a scare Saturday. If you watch that video in the "Coach's course" thread what you don't see is me almost puking right before I opened the door. What I didn't realize until I landed was that I was suffering heat exhaustion. Felt pretty woozy by the time I got back in the hangar. I didn't jump again until near sunset. That scared me a little...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #44 July 9, 2002 People have gone in on sport rigs trying to still find the main handle. A well placed reserve handle did them no good. A functioning Cypres would have made a difference. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #45 July 9, 2002 QuotePeople have gone in on sport rigs trying to still find the main handle and i watched a video tape of an experienced demo jumper spend the rest of his life slapping his reserve handle after cutting away a bag lock. Anything can happen I guess. I'd like a Cypres...just hasn't been that important to me so far. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #46 July 9, 2002 In all honesty, what would make it important for you Clay? Anything? Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bloodyrog 0 #47 July 9, 2002 Very well said: > <...> in other cases having one could have contributed to injuries or deaths. > There are many ways to die skydiving Regarding the latter there are, accordingly, many ways to increase your life expectancy, and some of them are more effective yet cheaper than using a Cypres. One more thing to think about is the psychological aspect of having or not having an ADD. You may say "I don't rely on it by any means", etc. Well, subconsciously you still do - you can't tell for sure nor you can control it. Perhaps you would be more cautious without one or perhaps it wouldn't make a difference in the long run. For those who "won't jump without one": Cypres may be good for you if it just keeps you from being a little bit too nervous. It is bad for you if it puts you in complacency. How can you jump WITH one? It is not going to save you in _more_than_half_ of death scenarious. Rog Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyflier 0 #48 July 9, 2002 A lot of valid opinions posted already. General consensus seems to be that most people choose to not jump without one. I think for these people AAD's are a great thing and may make this great sport of ours (and the people involved feel) a little safer- even if at times it is purely a placebo effect. As has already been stated, my only real objection is the possible "dumbing down" of jumpers (especially students) who think "I have an AAD therefore I'm safe". My own feeling is that maybe skydiving isn't for these people. And there certainly are some. Living in OZ, I have to jump an AAD till I get my D license (200 jumps). After that I will more than likely get rid of it. I would resent any implication that this choice would make me an un-safe jumper. My reasons for this are evidently not shared by many who post here and thus I don't intend on launching into an elaborate explanation of them. I'm not anti-AAD at all. There is no doubt that some people have been saved due to having one. Just my measly 2 cents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #49 July 9, 2002 QuoteIt is not going to save you in _more_than_half_ of death scenarious. I won't argue that a Cypres can sometimes complicate or cause problems, but I'm not sure what you are looking at here. If you are looking at Cypres' not being able to save people hooking or making inadvertent low turns, then you're right. But for high-speed mals with mains, getting a reserve out might just save your life. By the time you hit activation altitude, you should have already taken care of things yourself. But some people don't. Some of them are still around, due to having a Cypres. If you look at the risk/reward for having one, I think it comes out positive. It is a matter of statistics and likelihoods. If it saves lives more often than it contributes to fatalities, it makes sense to me to have one. There are also cases of car airbags killing people. But the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of one saving a life (or reducing injury) on deployment. I agree with you that there are other things people can do to improve their odds. Many of them are cheaper. But it isn't necessarily an either/or scenario. If you look at the effect of safety devices/procedures/training in a cumulative way, adding one more is usually a good thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #50 July 9, 2002 Quotewhat would make it important for you Clay? Anything? It's just a matter of having $850 to spend without it feeling like a stab in the spleen. My Jeep needs work on the transfer case. That will easily cost more than what a Cypres would and it's more important to me. Here we get into "Clay's Philosophy On Life" which pretty much says..."You gotta die of something...." If I burn in due to NOT having a Cypres it'll be pretty dramatic. Shouldn't need much more than a bucket to scrape up the pieces. I guess my only regret there would be to my friends at the DZ. I don't want them to have to go through that but personally I don't give a rats ass. I'm not suicidal...don't take it that way...I just know you have to go some time...and when it's your time...you'll go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
