Attitudes toward AADs

[PhreeZone 15]

A quick look at the Cypres save page shows that VERY few saves are from being knocked unconsious. Most are loss of altitude awareness or some other condition other then being unconsious. There are some on their that people just resigned that they were going to die and freefell and POP the cypres fires, others that they just brain lock and wait for the cypres to fire since they are unsure what to do. THOSE are the people that need to find another sport to play in.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[MarkM 0]

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Do you drive a car? Do you wear a helmet while driving a car?

Specious argument. Not wearing a helmet does not mean 100% fatality rate. Not wearing a Cypres while unconsious in freefall does.

You will have a 100% fatality rate in the car without the helmet if you are in an accident that delivers a blow to the head that would be fatal without the helmet.

You will have 100% fatality without a Cypres if you take a blow to the head that will knock you unconscious during a skydive.

Both of those situations are if's and not guarantees.

If you're racing cars you wear a helmet, because the risk of being in a situation where you need it has increased to a level where it's prudent to wear a helmet.

Wearing a Cypres is no different. It's a matter of assessing your risks and determining what level of protection you need against them. Just because a person jumps without a Cypres doesn't make them stupid.

[billvon 2,414]

>Specious argument. Not wearing a helmet does not mean 100%
>fatality rate. Not wearing a Cypres while unconsious in freefall does.

As few cypres saves are due to unconsciousness, I don't think your above comparison is valid.

In fact, I think the original post is a pretty good comparison. A good helmet has no safety drawbacks - well designed ones do not restrict your vision, mess with your hearing etc. A cypres has at least two - the possibility of a misfire or the possibility of a valid fire if you open your main too low. From that standpoint, it makes more sense to wear a helmet when you're driving. If you doubt a helmet's effectiveness in motor vehicle accidents, ask any trauma surgeon about the issue.

[FreeFlyFreaky 0]

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>Specious argument. Not wearing a helmet does not mean 100%
>fatality rate. Not wearing a Cypres while unconsious in freefall does.

As few cypres saves are due to unconsciousness, I don't think your above comparison is valid.

Of course its valid. It matters not whether your new condition "altitude awareness" is also a reason for the use of a Cypres.

The only condition in my argument was unconsiousness. My argument is 100% valid and undeniable.

Now as to my statement about being stupid. Well, I defer to Forrest Gump...

Cheers guys,

Whit

[billvon 2,414]

>Of course its valid.

No it's not. Everyone who dies as a result of head trauma during an accident is dead. You can't change that, but a helmet likely would have. Therefore, helmets can play a similar role in preventing traffic fatalities.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Do you drive a car? Do you wear a helmet while driving a car?

Considering that wearing a helmet while driving a car can significantly reduce the potential for head trauma in an accident aren't you stupid for not wearing one?

Based on your argument, would you tell someone who would only drive while wearing a helmet that they are too reliant on that helmet? Would you assume that person is going to drive more recklessly based on that one fact? You might assume they've already been hit in the head one too many times, but I don't see how insisting on using safety devices makes someone less safe.

A skateboarder who will always wear knee pads and a helmet is unsafe? A motorcycle rider who won't ride without a helmet is relying too much on it and will be more reckless? I just don't think there is a direct correlation.

[fact]People who chew gum get cancer...[assumption]therefore chewing gum causes cancer....NOT

[fact]People who rely on an AAD to pull for them are reckless......[assumption]therefore only jumping with an AAD means you are reckless....NOT

[skybytch 259]

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My question to those opposed to using a Cypres is “Will you jump without a reserve?”

I'm not opposed to using a Cypres; there's one on my rig and I turn it on. I am opposed to the attitude that says "because I have a Cypres I'm safe, therefore I'll never jump without one."

Would I jump without a reserve? If it was legal and I'd accepted the fact that I'd probably die if the one canopy on my back malfunctioned, yes, I would. Lots of people BASE jump with only one canopy, oftentimes from altitudes high enough to allow for a cutaway and reserve deployment. The main difference here is that it is NOT legal to jump out of an airplane without an emergency parachute; it IS legal, in most places anyway, to jump without an AAD.

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Getting knocked unconscious for over a minute in skydiving is fatal 100% of the time without a Cypres. Guaranteed. YOU WILL DIE!

How many people have been knocked out in freefall in the last 10 years or so? Check the Cypres save page - how many of those jumpers were unconcious when the Cypres saved their ass? And how many were saved because they had a problem and took no further action? It's those people who should really reconsider their participation in this sport.

If the airplane goes in on takeoff I very well may die. If I get into a canopy collision on final I very well may die. If my canopy passes through a dust devil and collapses I very well may die. There are so many scenarios that could lead to my death simply because I chose to jump out of airplanes... and out of all of those, only two or three where having an AAD might change the outcome.

Not to mention the various scenarios where having an AAD could turn a routine jump into an emergency...

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I believe that any argument against the use of a Cypres in recreational skydiving is a rationalization for being stupid!

Hmmm... Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe that if someone chooses to have and use a Cypres they should at least be aware of the risks they are taking by having it, and not be dependent on it to save their ass if they screw up.

[FreeFlyFreaky 0]

No it's not. Everyone who dies as a result of head trauma during an accident is dead.

duh......

But not every accident causes fatal head trauma. And that's the point. Every instance of unconciousness for over one minute in freefall does. That's what makes HIS comparison specious. It's not apples and apples. Your getting so far off point now I'm not going to continue.

Good day guys,

Whit

[Michele 1]

See, I get so frustrated when I read a thread like this.

On one hand, there are people who I respect greatly and admire for their skydiving skills and survivability, and who, if I am ever around them, listen carefully to their advice. I want to be like them, I want to jump like them, I want to be a sponge and soak up everything they say...whether in person or on these boards.

On the other hand, I have had a cutaway. I know I will pull silver. And I won't jump without my cypres on. Yes, if I found out that my cypres was not on while I was on the plane, I would ride the plane down. Why? Because it is part of my gear check, and part of my routine to turn it on. If I've forgotten that, what else have I forgotten? And if it's malfunctioning, and I know I turned it on but now it's off, I am not going to jump on gear I don't know what's going on with it.

Simply stated, I won't jump without my cypres on. Should that contribute to the "Airweenie" concept, so be it. If I fail someone's litmus test, or acid test, then I failed. Better here than in the air. If I don't earn the respect of the people who I respect because I actively choose to be as safe as I possibly can, taking into account all the circumstances, then so be it - I shall not be respected by them in turn. I won't walk the middle ground and placate those of you who I wish to be like; I will make myself happy, and modify the risks inherent in this sport as best I can, and then I shall make my paltry 3 jumps a month. And be happy doing so.

Do I sound a tad defensive? Yes, I suppose I do. It's hard to take a postition like this because it goes against many respected people's position. I have less than 35 jumps. I don't know the first thing about this sport. So, is it hard? Yes. Will I do it? Yes. And will I jump wtih my cypres turned on, all the time? Yes. My ass, my choice.

I am known as Airweenie. And as someone once told me, "wear that moniker with pride. Safety keeps you alive in this sport"...
Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[TEB6363 0]

I'm going to skip the Bill and Kev argument and just go back to the personal info.

I jump with a cypress, I prefer that I have an AAD on my rig and on Tandem Rigs. I will jump my personal rig (or borrowed gear) without a cypress. I will not jump a tandem rig without an AAD - it is someone's life with me and I think they deserve the benefit of what the manufacturers suggest by using the device (Tandem must be equipped with AAD)

Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!!

[skybytch 259]

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Every instance of unconciousness for over one minute in freefall does.

Actually... there is a person, in the UK IIRC, who was unconcious for over a minute in freefall and lived. Another jumper did the damn-near-impossible - caught him/her and pulled for them.

[PhillyKev 0]

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I'm going to skip the Bill and Kev argument and just go back to the personal info.

No arguing here...just friendly sparring

Have a question for you though. If you think your passenger deserves the benefit of using an AAD, why don't you think you deserve it all of the time?

[FreeFlyFreaky 0]

***Actually... there is a person, in the UK IIRC, who was unconcious for over a minute in freefall and lived. Another jumper did the damn-near-impossible - caught him/her and pulled for them. quote]

Now we're really splitting hairs....

[freeatlast 0]

Weenies of the world unite ... You ARE RIGHT in my opinion (I also have only 70 or so jumps) It is YOUR RISK and it is UP TO YOU to manage the risk to a level that is acceptable TO YOU and no-one else.

As I have posted earlier ...It doesn't make you a less safe skydiver ... In fact you are OBVIOUSLY THINKING ABOUT YOUR SAFETY ...a sign perhaps that you aren't some crazy volvo driving cypres using airhead ...

See you next time in Perris ...

[TEB6363 0]

I do think that I deserve the use of a cypress. However, I will be jumping while mine is in for the 8-year service next month and that is also my choice. I do have a few hundred jumps without a cypress due to not owning one when I bought my first rig, cypress checkups, borrowing gear, etc.

Jumping with an AAD is my choice and I prefer to have one. But I will still jump without one when it works out that way. Hell, 1500 jumps mostly with a cypress and have not had it fire. If I end up eating it during the 20 or so jumps without one, then it might just be my time.

Shoot, I went to church last Sunday, that should help me some.

Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!!

[billvon 2,414]

>Simply stated, I won't jump without my cypres on. Should that
> contribute to the "Airweenie" concept, so be it.

I don't think that makes you an 'airweenie,' just that your assumption of what an AAD can do for you is different than mine.

>If I don't earn the respect of the people who I respect because I
> actively choose to be as safe as I possibly can, taking into account
> all the circumstances, then so be it - I shall not be respected by
> them in turn.

But Michele, you don't choose to be as safe as you possibly can - you choose to be acceptably safe. You could jump at Otay, where the winds are a steady 10mph out of the west all day - instead you jump at Perris, where the winds alternate between light and variable and strong and variable all summer, where dust devils regularly cause bad landings and injuries. You could jump at a sea level DZ, but instead you choose Perris, which has a higher landing elevation and thus faster (and less forgiving) landings. You could do only solos, but instead accept the (slightly) higher risk of freefall collisions by doing RW.

I won't put words in your mouth, but I suspect you do this because, all things considered, doing RW jumps at Perris is safe enough - for you. Everyone has a different idea of what risk is acceptable and what risk is not acceptable. If you want to never, ever jump without a functioning AAD, then that is your right. It's my opinion that a cypres contributes so little to your safety on a hop and pop that it's not even a consideration, but that's my opinion, and not one that you have to take into consideration.