billvon 2,417 #1 September 20, 2002 The zeppelin thread got me thinking again about the ideal jumpship. Of course, this depends on your objectives, but here's my ideal one for bigways and general DZ usage: An aircraft slightly larger than a Grand Caravan that holds, say, 24 jumpers. Fixed gear, single engine turboprop sized to get to altitude at about the same speed as a -27 otter. Exit doors in the _front_ - one right behind the pilot, one on the pilot's right. Floater bars all the way back to the tail. For bigways, simply have everyone climb out and float, 10 per side, with the other 4 crouching in the doors. No balance problems since people must go _forward_ to get out. (Of course they can't all float by the tail.) The prop is in the front of the plane so no problems with prop arc while floating. The door on the right would have a Cessna-style strut arrangement, so Cessna launches are no problem. The left door would be Otter-sized for people more comfortable with that. If you wanted to launch a 'conventional' 20 way (i.e. 6 floaters, 14 divers) you could still do that, and again no balance problems because everyone would be pushing _forward_ on exit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #2 September 20, 2002 Well...except all that crazy door stuff didn't you just describe a 750-XL? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #3 September 20, 2002 Unfortunately, unless it's also a tail wheel aircraft, you're going to have problems with people exiting the front door and whacking into the main landing gear. On a tricycle gear airplane, the main wheels -have- to be behind the CG. Of course, I suspect you already knew this, but just overlooked it.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #4 September 20, 2002 Yes, what YOU said, but don't forget a bit "T" tail so the back floaters don't have to worry about bashing their heads as they hop out and away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #5 September 20, 2002 Quoteyou're going to have problems with people exiting the front door and whacking into the main landing gear. Gear? I thought those things with wheels on them WERE floater bars? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #6 September 20, 2002 can we put Big frickin laser guns on top?I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #7 September 20, 2002 Must have beer on tap for the ride to altitude... Er I meant for the end of the day.. yup tha's what I meant Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coho21 0 #8 September 20, 2002 BWAAHAHHAH!!! Oh man I think I woke up the whole cubicle maze on that one! J YSD#0009J YSD#0009 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,417 #9 September 20, 2002 >Unfortunately, unless it's also a tail wheel aircraft, you're going to >have problems with people exiting the front door and whacking into > the main landing gear. I guess it depends on the geometry . . . with a narrow wheel track (possible with a single) and a wide fuselage you might never have an issue. Even on a standard otter, you could get another 2-3 people as front float if not for the wing/flap arrangement. An alternative would be to put the 'footrail' on top of the wheel fairing rather than along the fuselage. Tail wheel would be possible, but then you'd have a higher rate of taxi/landing problems, I would think. >Yes, what YOU said, but don't forget a bit "T" tail . . . Or the Otter arrangement, a normal stabilizer just a bit higher. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #10 September 20, 2002 QuoteTail wheel would be possible, but then you'd have a higher rate of taxi/landing problems, I would think. Yes, obviously a tail wheel is going to be a much bigger deal for taxi, takeoff and landings. Narrow mains on a tricycle arrangement, however, aren't going to be the answer. Ya really, really want to have wide and beefy mains for a skydive operation just to make it a land-o-matic and ensure they hold up with repeated over use. I'll tell ya, DeHavilland got it right when they built the landing gear for the Twin Otter -- build 'em like you're going to use 'em on dirt strips. I've often sat in the front section of a Twin Otter and thought how cool it would be to bail out of the middle emergency exits just under the wing. However, looking out and seeing those huge wheels sitting there has quickly squashed that idea.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #11 September 20, 2002 How about a gear arangement like the Casa's have? Have the body of the aircraft be as wide as the wheel base. And most DZ's around here ARE grass strips.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,417 #12 September 20, 2002 >Narrow mains on a tricycle arrangement, however, aren't going to be > the answer. Well, if you took an otter and replaced the two engines with one nose-mounted engine, you could certainly narrow the mains and not lose any stability; there would be far less moment arm on either side to cause the thing to tip. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #13 September 20, 2002 QuoteAnd most DZ's around here ARE grass strips. Which is why it makes sense to use an aircraft that is designed for unimproved (dirt & grass) runways.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #14 September 20, 2002 Think about side loads imposed by crappy landings in high cross winds. Obviously, if conditions are perfect you could do a tandem wheel arrangement under the fuselage with maybe some tiny stringer wheels extending from the wing tips, like a U-2, but I don't think that's very practical for everyday jumpship use.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #15 September 21, 2002 Since we are toosing out ideas here, how about a Wheel arangement like the Nomad or [Url http://www.bird.ch/Russians/Let410/L410MTG.jpg]Let 410[/url] have?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jceman 1 #16 September 21, 2002 Quote>Narrow mains on a tricycle arrangement, however, aren't going to be > the answer. Well, if you took an otter and replaced the two engines with one nose-mounted engine, you could certainly narrow the mains and not lose any stability; there would be far less moment arm on either side to cause the thing to tip. Bill, Have you never jumped a single Otter? We had one (with a -34, if I recollect) in Flagler during the '96/'97 season. Very nice jump plane, almost as fast as a twin , but very comfortable and quiet in the cabin. didn't even need a step to get into the door. One drawback is that it didn't like even the least bit of crosswind component. We got around that by getting permission for the pilot to use any surface he wanted/needed. Sweet plane. Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money. Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #17 September 21, 2002 There are exactly two types of pilots that fly retracts. Those that have landed gear up . . . and those that will. I believe that's why Bill specified fix gear in his original proposal.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #18 September 21, 2002 How about fixing it and leaving the cover over it so it can be used as a step rail in addition to the floater bar then?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zlew 0 #19 September 21, 2002 <> Funny that you say that. The first twin otters were singel otters that were mod'ed to have 2 wing engines and tri. gear. That would be kinda funny to go backwards and make a new single otter... We have a Dash-10 (1000hp) single otter at our DZ. Has a few of the things you would like. Tail wheel gear, single engine... big slow wing. good climb etc. skies Z Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #20 September 21, 2002 Tail wheel = bad for most pilots. Finding pilots with lots of tail wheel time is a rare thing now days.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #21 September 21, 2002 Big ways = DHC-5 Buffalo. Look it up if you need to. That's my dream bigway plane. Everyday ops = Twin Otter (new -27 engines) Nothing beats its' efficiency and stability. Small DZ ops = C-U206 with engine upgrade to IO-550 and speed breaks for easy descents with power. The small DZ turbine would be the Cessna Turbine U206. 410 SHP (shaft horse power). You can run 6 jumpers to 13 grand and not outrun the packing ability. The engine can tollerate high cycles and unimproved runways. State of Illinois runs a turbine 206 for aerial photo missions. It landed here once and I about wet my pants.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #22 September 21, 2002 >DHC-5 Buffalo. You'd have to wear all black to avoid staining everything with the oil that thing leaks/burns/etc Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #23 September 21, 2002 Ummm.....it's a turbine engine aircraft. If it's using oil then you're going down in flames Phree. You might be thinking of the Caribou? DHC-4? Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #24 September 21, 2002 That is.... Opps Here is a DHC-4Caribou Here is a DHC-5/CC-115 BuffaloYesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drenaline 0 #25 September 21, 2002 Just to add one lil thing: 2 $ jump tickets HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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