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denete 2
QuoteI have 3 chops and never did it cross my mind to only pull them out a little way
I have no Idea where he came up with his statement but you might not want to be listening to anything the kid has to say.
?
Quote...he was sure to pull them all the way out
?
I'll rephrase the question a little bit: Do you (and I mean literally YOU, not me) pull to a full arm extension, or do you pull to a full arm extension and then grab the cables and keep pulling at them until they are all the way out of the housings?
QuoteHow far is too far? Not pulling far enough could pose a problem.
Like "dying", which a very experience jumper in Arizona did two years ago. Or surviving a harrowing main/reserve entanglement with serious injuries, like a first jump student did this summer in Illinois.
Pull 'em out, pull 'em out, pull 'em out-out-out !
Along with two other incidents in Texas in the past couple years....
DeNReN 0
here's a question that may answer yours.....
What do you do after pulling the cutaway and reserve handles????
Arch???....pull the handles and then arch...they both will clear the housings. 
Edited to remove a "of" and to add: I pull my handles every reserve repack..still waiting for actual experiance 
what sense does it make not to pull them all the way out.
I have not had to cutaway yet but if I did I would pull them all the way out then once under a good canopy would stash em in my suit or shirt or something.
pull your handles out to full arm extension is what I was trained to do, and it is how I have practiced in the training harness, and everytime my reserve has been repacked. also every 15-20 jumps I pull my cutaway on the ground to clean the cables with silicone spray. every time I have pulled them out completely and have no doubt that I will do the same in an emergency in the air.
far enough to me is when there is no handles/cables left to pull. bummer though it kinda takes the guessing game element out of it.
I have not had to cutaway yet but if I did I would pull them all the way out then once under a good canopy would stash em in my suit or shirt or something.
pull your handles out to full arm extension is what I was trained to do, and it is how I have practiced in the training harness, and everytime my reserve has been repacked. also every 15-20 jumps I pull my cutaway on the ground to clean the cables with silicone spray. every time I have pulled them out completely and have no doubt that I will do the same in an emergency in the air.
far enough to me is when there is no handles/cables left to pull. bummer though it kinda takes the guessing game element out of it.
if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell
Perry Farrell
Quotewhat sense does it make not to pull them all the way out.
I don't know about your rig, but if I put my rig on and pull the cutaway handle to full arm extension, the long cutaway cable doesn't quite clear the housing - there are still a few inches left inside.
Either way, do your emergency procedures the way you were trained, which should involve pulling your handles to full arm extension. Your goal is to cutaway a ball of shit and get a nice stable canopy overhead sometime before you meet the ground. You can worry about whether the handles came all the way out or not once the impending danger of dying has been removed.
johnboy 0
***I'll rephrase the question a little bit: Do you (and I mean literally YOU, not me) pull to a full arm extension, or do you pull to a full arm extension and then grab the cables and keep pulling at them until they are all the way out of the housings?***
A full arm's length should be plenty for your cables to clear. Even if the very ends of the cables are still in their respective housings, they will have long since cleared the loops they were holding in place, be it your three rings or reserve closing loop. I know from in flight experience that the cables on my current rig completely clear the housings, but my old janky looking Racer, the cutaways did not. However, they did still clear the loops on the three rings quite handsomely.
All of this is assuming you don't have amputations just above the elbows...
A full arm's length should be plenty for your cables to clear. Even if the very ends of the cables are still in their respective housings, they will have long since cleared the loops they were holding in place, be it your three rings or reserve closing loop. I know from in flight experience that the cables on my current rig completely clear the housings, but my old janky looking Racer, the cutaways did not. However, they did still clear the loops on the three rings quite handsomely.
All of this is assuming you don't have amputations just above the elbows...
I had 6 of them so far. I pull the cable out fully every time. I have not lost any handle on the last 2 ride.
QuoteWith a dual system, is there any advantage to pulling the cables fully out of the housings? I would assume that pulling them fully out would happen after reserve deployment, and that it isn't something to worry about while trying to provide a stable platform for reserve deployment.
If you look, pull, peal and look, pull, peal you execute EM procedure 100% sure in the right way under pressure too.
I had my first in wrong order, but I got lucky. Do you count on your luck? If you pull fully out you might loose your handle, if you fuck up, you might loose your life.....so you don't have to worry about handles anymore
DougH 270
Six cutaways in 700 jumps!! Who taught you how to pack Gabor?
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P
=P
micduran 0
Your goal is to get rid of a "bad" canopy. Your mind takes over and pulls those cables all the way out to be sure that ball of shit is gone, gone, gone and the reserve deploys.![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
Be patient with the faults of others; they have to be patient with yours.
QuoteA while back, a skydiver at the dropzone was recounting his cutaway experience. He mentioned that some people don't pull the cables all the way out of the housings, but that he was sure to pull them all the way out.
I'm sure you understand that he was talking about:
1. Short-armed people, or
2. Those that have failed to pull them far enough to complete the cutaway
3. Complacent people who may have the noted experience of #2.
And I'm sure that you knew that he was not recommending any process that did NOT get them all the way out.
QuoteWith a dual system, is there any advantage to pulling the cables fully out of the housings?
Yes...the advantage is that you can be sure that you have pulled far enough to complete the main cutaway and reserve deployment process.
QuoteI would assume that pulling them fully out would happen after reserve deployment, and that it isn't something to worry about while trying to provide a stable platform for reserve deployment.
In the case of short-armed people, this may not be true and sweeping the cables to clear them would be the preferred method of the process.
QuoteWhat do you do?
My arms were long enough that my cables were pulled all the way out after going back to the neutral body position for reserve deployment.
Side note:
Some schools teach Pull and Clear using the one-handed method. For example:
Look (cutaway), Reach (cutaway), Look (reserve), Pull (cutaway), Clear (cutaway), Reach (reserve), Pull (reserve), Clear (reserve), Neutral.
This method teaches you to clear the cables by sweeping them with the opposite hand. You would sweep the cutaway cables with the left hand and sweep the reserve deployment cable with your right hand to ensure full extraction.
Hope that answers your question.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Keep your comments if you don't have anything to share!
hackish 8
My first and only cutaway I peeled the tab and gave it a tug with my wrist. I followed through by pulling it all the way out and throwing it away like I should have - muscle memory at that point. The flick of the wrist released the main and the RSL beat me to the silver but I still pulled it all the way out (as per training). Didn't realise it was still in my hands until I flared for the landing.
I think the big risk is to have a partial disconnection by not pulling the cutaway far enough. I believe the cables should be set by the rigger so one is about an inch longer so the RSL side is pulled by the last riser to leave.
-Michael
I think the big risk is to have a partial disconnection by not pulling the cutaway far enough. I believe the cables should be set by the rigger so one is about an inch longer so the RSL side is pulled by the last riser to leave.
-Michael
QuoteI think the big risk is to have a partial disconnection by not pulling the cutaway far enough. I believe the cables should be set by the rigger so one is about an inch longer so the RSL side is pulled by the last riser to leave.
There was a thread about this earlier I think.
daremrc 0
QuoteQuoteI have 3 chops and never did it cross my mind to only pull them out a little way
I have no Idea where he came up with his statement but you might not want to be listening to anything the kid has to say.
?Quote...he was sure to pull them all the way out
?
I'll rephrase the question a little bit: Do you (and I mean literally YOU, not me) pull to a full arm extension, or do you pull to a full arm extension and then grab the cables and keep pulling at them until they are all the way out of the housings?
The motion that I practice is peeling the handle with my right hand, and as I pull hook my left thumb behind the cables. Extend both arms out to full extension then out to the sides to ensure the handle comes out to my right, and the cables are stripped by my left thumb to my left side, followed by both hands to silver. Haven't had to use it yt but stripping the cutaway cables is part of the EP's I practice on almost every lift to altitude.
***edited to say this is how it was taught in my FJC, no I havent had a real-life cutaway yet, and yes I'm a little on the short side.
Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.
QuoteI think the big risk is to have a partial disconnection by not pulling the cutaway far enough. I believe the cables should be set by the rigger so one is about an inch longer so the RSL side is pulled by the last riser to leave.
This varies by manufacturer, I believe.
Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda
Madison 0
Really? Really, really, really?
I've never heard of that type of EP training. They really teach you that??? So....you are going in, tumbling around perhaps, and you feel you have the time and can locate your cables with your thumb before pulling your reserve?
Wow!! Are you counting on your RSL to save your ass? You shouldn't be, and I'll tell you fumbling around to get your thumb in to pull out the rest of your cutaway cables could take the rest of your life.
Sorry if I'm coming off a little harsh, but this seems weird to me. I've had one high speed mal. and I'm 5'3" with small arms--had no problem pulling that f*cker all the way out before pulling my reserve. I do not want to say your instructors are wrong--do what you were taught, but I'd ask around about this method.
On a side note: I don't know what they taught you about hanging onto your handles, but some people already made references to stuffing handles in their shirt,etc. Hanging onto handles isn't what you should be focusing on. Get rid of 'em--unless you are already under a good reserve and notice they are still in your hands.
Good luck & Blue Skies,
April
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.
AllisonH 0
I was also taught the stripping cables with thumb method that Paul mentioned above. (Note: we jump at the same DZ now, but I was taught this elsewhere before I moved there)
I think it might go along with the 2 hands on each handle training method. If you're pulling your cutaway with both hands, it doesn't take much/any extra time to start the pull with both hands, then strip the cable with your left hand as you continue pulling to full arm extension with your right. You don't pull the cutaway first and then search for the cables, it's all one motion.
QuoteReally? Really, really, really?
I've never heard of that type of EP training. They really teach you that??? So....you are going in, tumbling around perhaps, and you feel you have the time and can locate your cables with your thumb before pulling your reserve?
Wow!! Are you counting on your RSL to save your ass? You shouldn't be, and I'll tell you fumbling around to get your thumb in to pull out the rest of your cutaway cables could take the rest of your life.
Sorry if I'm coming off a little harsh, but this seems weird to me. I've had one high speed mal. and I'm 5'3" with small arms--had no problem pulling that f*cker all the way out before pulling my reserve. I do not want to say your instructors are wrong--do what you were taught, but I'd ask around about this method.
On a side note: I don't know what they taught you about hanging onto your handles, but some people already made references to stuffing handles in their shirt,etc. Hanging onto handles isn't what you should be focusing on. Get rid of 'em--unless you are already under a good reserve and notice they are still in your hands.
Good luck & Blue Skies,
April
QuoteI've never heard of that type of EP training. They really teach you that??? So....you are going in, tumbling around perhaps, and you feel you have the time and can locate your cables with your thumb before pulling your reserve?
I am an AFF instructor, and my DZ teaches that way...
"look red, grab red, look silver, peel-pull-strip, grab silver, peel-pull-strip"
There are advantages and disadvantages to that method... advantage is that students are less likley to pull out-of-sequence (a real risk) and less likley to not fully pull the cutaway (which has happened). Yes, it takes longer, but one argument is that students are deploying at 5000' and therefore have plenty of time... if they want to change their procedure later as an experienced jumper, that's their choice.
Not saying I prefer that method (I don't), just that yes, some places teach it, and there are arguments in favor of both methods. Personally I was taught get both hands on the handle, then punch right, punch left... on my first (so far only) cutaway I was so pumped up with adrenaline that pulling all the way was simply not an issue, I think I could have punched through a brick wall, but that's just me.
side note: an experienced (and very good) jumper I know who was taught the way described above, but later changed his procedure found that in his first malfunction he reverted to the FJC method... the reaction was simply buried too deep to be overcome. For this reason among others I think students ought to be taught EP's that will apply throughout their career... also why I don't like the single-handle system, even though there are arguable saftey benefits to students.
"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."
daremrc 0
well it makes sense to me, and doesn't take any longer than just pulling the cutaway, it's just one fluid motion. If you pull with both hands on one handle, your hand and thumb are already there anyways.
I've weighed the benefits and risks of the two-handed and one-handed methods in my mind and the two-handed peel-pull-strip makes the most logical sense to me. It's a positove reaction to two potentially deadly issues (both an incomplete cutaway, and a hard cutaway or hard reserve pull), rather than an assumption that it won't happen. Luckily enough this is also the method I was taught so there is no unlearning to do
Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.
Madison 0
Thank you--very informative. I deleted my post because I already got yelled at
I was just curious--seemed scary. I get a little worked up about safety, and had never heard of that.
I am with the school of "look at red, hands on red, look at reserve, pull red, pull reserve" I don't agree with one hand on each either, as I know/have seen very poor outcomes to that method, although that argument could go on forever.
Thanks for educating me, that's what this forum is for.
Blue Skies,
April
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.
I'm also an AFF instructor, and my DZ teaches the same way. When I had my chop, that's how I did it and it added no extra time to the cutaway procedures.
The only part I skip is looking at the handles. They are always under my boobs, so I can't see them. I have a short torso anyhow, so there's not much room for them to shift.
Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda
The only part I skip is looking at the handles. They are always under my boobs, so I can't see them. I have a short torso anyhow, so there's not much room for them to shift.
Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda
I have 3 chops and never did it cross my mind to only pull them out a little way
I have no Idea where he came up with his statement but you might not want to be listening to anything the kid has to say.
Get into a hanging harness and pratice. Look, Grab, Peel PUNCH! repeat...
MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.
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