Bowling For Columbine

[Kennedy 0]

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Are all white people from the same ethnic background? Really? Instead of judging a person by the color of their skin, how about trying to judge and classify a set of people based on how they act and their history. You can't tell me a Newfie is the same as a someone on the prairies. Yet they both have white skin? So they must be from the same ethinic background according to your stats. Let's talk people not numbers.

Right, so Texas is just like Washington is just like Maryland is just like Maine is just like Louisiana. Yep, they all act the same and have the same history. Uh huh.

I see plenty of lines drawn for regions. New England. Mid Atlantic. South East. Gulf Coast. Texas. Dust Bowl. Great Lakes. Appalachia. Northern Plains. SoCal. North Pacific. We have immigrants from every country I've ever heard of.

What makes you think that your own argument doesn't apply in reverse to the US? And as to your Hong Kong in Vancouver comment, minorities have always gathered more heavily in cities, from Montreal to Moscow.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[CanuckInUSA 0]

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What makes you think that your own argument doesn't apply in reverse to the US?

You don't think I know the US has regional diversification? Where did I say that the US wasn't multi-cultural. I mean the people of Boulder are different than the people in suburban Denver. The people of suburban Denver are different than the people of inner city Denver. The people of inner city Denver are different that the people of Fort Collins and the people of Colorado Springs? Well, they're just different. And that's just the front range here in Colorado. All I was saying is that "Canada is as, if not more diversified than the USA".

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We have immigrants from every country I've ever heard of.

Never said you didn't. But Canada has the same people. In fact Canada has a much more liberal immigration policy than does the USA (to a fault IMHO).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Michele 1]

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I just didn't know if the person you were speaking of actually killed someone with a table rather than assaulting them.

The example, just for clarification, was one from my personal history with domestic violence. I was simply trying to demonstrate to whomever that guns available does not mean someone will assault with that weapon, and, in my own experience, guns never came into play. Rather, tables, vases, books, and most often fists did, even though there were loaded weapons within arm's reach in at least three instances.

That's all...just addressing the mindset with some personal experience.

And with that, I do believe I'm done with the thread. It's getting too contentious...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Kennedy 0]

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In the late 1980s, the gun industry began targeting women to counter slumping handgun sales among its primary market of white males. The false message delivered by gun makers was clear: the greatest threat posed to a woman was an attack by a stranger and, the best form of protection a woman could rely upon was a handgun.

Umm, evidence anyone? Who said a woman could only use it to defend from a stranger? And Studies have shown a firearm was the response to a threat least likely to result in personal injury.

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But based on some studies by the "Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)",

Right, and the CDC has been a bastion of scientific ethics when it comes to firearms. (if you don't know, ask)

As to the conclusions, I'm sure people have shown you the difference between correlation and causation.

And I personally have posted studies showing self defense is in fact very common. I haven't seen anyone disputing them yet. (Kleck, Lott, Mustard, ets) At least when I link to the NRA website, it is to show scientific studies that they have posted. If I just used anything they wrote, I would never have to use another site.

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Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

The problem is you took up for Goose, as he stated unequivocally that Canada was more diverse than the US. Problem is the numbers say otherwise. That's all. I would never say Canada isn't diverse, eh. You don't all play hockey, eh. Besides, it's all in how you define 'diversity.'

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Never said you didn't. But Canada has the same people. In fact Canada has a much more liberal immigration policy than does the USA (to a fault IMHO).

True, to the best of my knowledge. But policy doesn't equal numbers (if it did, the 'drug war' would be long over ). Canada has the same people, but less of them.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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[I do believe I'm done with the thread.

Dang and I tried to get away from this thread yesterday. What I need is for Mother Nature to shine bright and warm upon the Front Range this holiday weekend so that I can get some good jumping in and forget about this nonsense.

I have never really felt threatened in this country (maybe I'm lucky, maybe I just stay away from the troubled spots) and thus don't feel the need to arm myself in order to protect myself. If others don't feel the same way, it's in their right of this free society to do what they think they need to do to feel safer.

I enjoyed the movie, did see faults in it. Likely don't feel the need to watch it any more. Life goes on. But am I done here? Probably not.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Canada has the same people, but less of them.

No argument here. I mean last night I said that we're just a smaller, less intense flavor of the USA.

Oh here's an interesting thing (and it's not scientific, it's just out of that pea I call my brain).

Rough population of the USA (what is it?) close to 300 million people (that's probably too high a number). Rough population of Canada (what is it?) 30 million people? Average number of people in USA per year who die via some sort of firearm. Let's say 10000? Average number of people in Canada per year who die via some sort of firearm. I don't know, how about 150? So for every Canadian who dies via some sort of firearm, roughly nine or ten Americans will die (and that is already factoring the population differences to allow us to compare the two if they were the same size). I know that this isn't scientific, but they are somewhat realistic numbers for two very similar societies.

How do you like them apples?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[PhillyKev 0]

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You don't all play hockey, eh.

Actually...I think they do. They have to. It's some kind of law or something. I'm not joking. It took me 3 hours to talk my way out of jail when I said out loud in a bar in Toronto that I haven't played hockey in 10 years. I was almost at the point where I just wanted to pull my gak and go postal, until they realized I was an American. I think it was because I didn't say please and thank you enough or call everyone buddy.

[JohnRich 4]

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Dude! You changed what the man said in order to negate it... didn't you? He said 'struck by lightning' and you changed it to 'killed by lighting' That's all I was calling you on.

Fair 'nuff. I assumed that when he was talking about people being struck with lightening, that he was referring to deaths. I did that because that is what made it an apples-to-apples comparison, where each category represented the same outcome.

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You had agreed to some 143 'justifiable homicides' and then put all that Kleck info up to... do you think the Kleck info would possibly bump that number to over 300? I don't think so.

If you had read what I posted in that message, you would have seen that Kleck's numbers went way higher than the number of lightening strikes.

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Therefore, you are more likely to be struck by lightning than use a gun to kill in self defense and that's that!

And because of Kleck's analysis, this statement was rendered false.

[JohnRich 4]

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So for every Canadian who dies via some sort of firearm, roughly nine or ten Americans will die (and that is already factoring the population differences).

The U.S. murder rate per capita is three times higher than Canada, not nine or ten.

http://canadaonline.about.com/library/weekly/aa072802a.htm

It only takes a few seconds with Google to get the facts, instead of all that speculation leading to incorrect comparisons.

And I know you'll jump all over this as "proof" of how more guns in America cause more gun murders. So I would remind you that we've already covered the ground that shows that there are also nations with fewer firearms and higher murder rates, and so on. So the isolated example of Canada means nothing about guns causing murder.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

According to your URL

http://canadaonline.about.com/library/weekly/aa072802a.htm

and CNN

http://www.cnn.com/US/9901/02/murder.rate/

554 people were murdered in Canada (2001) or 1.8 per every 100000 people.
18,209 people were murdered in the USA (1997) or 6.8 per every 100000 people.

So my 10:1 ratio is high, it's more like 3.5:1 (once again factoring in numbers as if the populations were the same). So the numbers aren't as drastic as one might have originally thought, but still more people per capita are murdered in the USA than in Canada (comparing two very similar socities with some common history). So why does America like to kill each other more than Canada? Culture? History? Marilyn Manson (a joke for those sleeping at the wheel).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[captainpooby 0]

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According to your URL

http://canadaonline.about.com/library/weekly/aa072802a.htm

and CNN

http://www.cnn.com/US/9901/02/murder.rate/

554 people were murdered in Canada (2001) or 1.8 per every 100000 people.
18,209 people were murdered in the USA (1997) or 6.8 per every 100000 people.

So my 10:1 ratio is high, it's more like 3.5:1 (once again factoring in numbers as if the populations were the same). So the numbers aren't as drastic as one might have originally thought, but still more people per capita are murdered in the USA than in Canada (comparing two very similar socities with some common history). So why does America like to kill each other more than Canada? Culture? History? Marilyn Manson (a joke for those sleeping at the wheel).

Actually, Canada and America have vastly different history. America chose to fight for freedom and Canada chose to remain subjects of an oppressive monarchy.
When they kicked the British out they decided, quite wisely, to ensure that they would always have an option to remove a tyrannical government, hence the 2nd amendment.
The BOR was written to enumerate GOD GIVEN RIGHTS that you are born with. That every freeman is born with. They are not delegated to you at the whim of a government.
The government is there at the pleasure of the people for the peoples service. Not to rule.
You cannot compare different cultures/countries firearms possesion and murder or suicide rates.
The Swiss, who ALL own fully automatic assault weapons have a very low murder/violent crime rate.
The Japanese, who have almost no guns, have a much higher suicide rate than America.
Guns are objects like cars and hammers. If you use a hammer to kill someone, noone blames the hammer. Noone is trying to ban knives either.
It makes no sense to try remove a valuable tool for self defence just because some CRIMINAL uses it for evil.
I have plenty of guns and I am a danger to noone....except someone who wishes to do me harm.
If guns are not a good means of self defence or crime prevention why do police have them?
Michael Moore is a communist and a liar. I refuse to rent or pay to see his move although I WOULD LOVE to see it. I just wont give that lying communist f**k my money.
Michael Moore lied and twisted facts to further his agenda. There is plenty of documentation to disprove his lies and his direct ties to communists. Look it up.
Documentary? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!

Here's a small explanation of why US murder rates are different from Canada.

Quote from a friend (The_Macallan
) on AR15.com:
Okay, now that that's out of the way... on to the statistics.

One thing you have to remember is that "whites" in the FBI Uniform Crime Report includes hispanics.

There is no national data collected that separates "whites" from "hispanics" - at least not since the mid '80s (hmmmm... I wonder why?)


====================================================
Year 2000 Statistics: B=Black, W+H=White+Hispanic

Total US Population........ 12.3%B ..... 87.6%W+H

Violent Crime Arrests:
* Murder................... 48.8%B ..... 48.7%W+H
* Rape..................... 34.1%B ..... 63.7%W+H
* Robbery.................. 53.9%B ..... 44.2%W+H
* Aggravated assault....... 34.0%B ..... 63.5%W+H
* Burglary................. 28.4%B ..... 69.4%W+H
* Larceny-theft............ 30.4%B ..... 66.7%W+H
* Motor vehicle theft...... 41.6%B ..... 55.4%W+H
* Arson.................... 21.7%B ..... 76.4%W+H
* Offenses against
family/children......... 29.6%B ..... 67.6%W+H
* All violent crimes....... 37.8%B ..... 59.9%W+H
* All property crimes...... 31.0%B ..... 66.2%W+H

Source:
FBI 2000 Uniform Crime Reports Section IV: Persons Arrested.

====================================================

There are no stats comparing Black, White and Hispanic crime rates. Crimes committed by Hispanics are lumped into the "White" category.

Prior to about 1986, crime stats used to separate black, white and hispanic. But for SOME reason, the powers that be decided to stop collecting data on hispanics and just call them "white".

If Hispanics (which make up 14% of the population) commit crimes anywhere NEAR the extent to which Blacks do (that being far above their proportion in the population) that would drive the "White Non-hispanic" crime rate far below 40% - while the "White Non-hispanic" population is about 70%.

But even if Hispanics did only commit crimes to the extent to which they're represented in the general population, that would mean that "White Non-Hispanics" account for about 46% of violent crimes. And again, that's ASSUMING that Hispanics only commit crimes matching their proportion in the population. There's some evidence to suggest that that assumption is waaaaay wrong but full crime stats committed by Hispanics are not kept by the FBI.


More data:
====================================================
Year 2001 U.S. Murder Statistics: B=Black, W+H=White+Hispanic

Total Murder Victims in 2001: (13,752 Total Victims)
* Black Victims........... 6,446 (46.9%B)
* White Victims........... 6,750 (49.0%W+H)
* Other + Unkn Victims...... 556 (4.0%)

Total Murder Offenders in 2001: (15,488 Total Offenders)
* Black Offenders......... 5,521 (35.6%B)
* White Offenders......... 5,174 (33.4%W+H)
* Other + Unkn Offenders.. 4,793 (30.9%)

Known "Single Victim/Single Offender" Murders: (6,987 Single Murders)
* White offenders........... 3,322 (47.5.%)
* Black offenders........... 3,321 (47.5%)
* White victims............. 3,644 (52.1%)
* Black victims............. 3,087 (44.2%)

* White-on-white Murder... 3,059 (43.8%)
* Black-on-black Murder... 2,802 (40.1%)
* Black-on-white Murder..... 475 (6.8%)
* White-on-black Murder..... 180 (2.6%)

====================================================



Now don't go making any generalizations with this data - unless of course you want to generalize AGAINST whites - then it's okay.

[JohnRich 4]

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According to your URL... and CNN...

I don't know why you went to CNN, because the first web site showed the murder rate for both countries, from the same year.

By using the CNN number, you got the U.S. rate from four years ago, which was higher than it was in the year for which the Canadian comparison was being made. It has dropped even more since then.

Apples & apples!

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So my 10:1 ratio is high, it's more like 3.5:1

You were only off by 312%.

[jaaska 0]

You must be joking!

Let's compare (unfortunately there are stats for this) Mercedes-Benz owners and and Greyhound users. Who commits more robberies? Why?

Oh, and what's this group was called... Ah, "white thrash". You think that they get a long with the world "better" than a "trash" of some other "color" or "race"? If you truly believe in the land of the free and so forth, you should check out how many people actually climbs up the "social ladder", no matter what's their "race". Why are the "white" then mostly "middle class or above" (so less "white trash"). Well, that's a whole different story (study some sociology, history, psychology etc. and you'll get there).

Of course this hole issue is waaay more complicated than that, so let's try to stay in the topic of "why more here than elsewhere" or "no more here than elsewhere" or what ever... There are countries where there are 50-60% "non-white" folks and they are still WAY behind USA in this dying violently -issue.

[captainpooby 0]

Where in my post are the words "white trash"?

Those DOJ stats, not mine.

Someone asked the question "Why do Americans have a higher murder/violent crime rate?" I was presenting some data that might answer his question.

[goose491 0]

Thinking of Diversity as 'Differences'... and applying it to people... let's try something out. Let's compare Languages spoken and Religions practiced in both Countries. I beleive the numbers will be similar... yet different


Let’s try languages first.

2000, USA census:

82.1% of the population reports speaking only English.
Of the non-English languages (17.9%), the largest numbers are found (in descending order) in Spanish, Chinese, French, German, Tagalog then Vietnamese.

2.7% report Asian and Pacific Islander languages. (I though this funny as 2.7% of Canada’s population is Chinese, just Chinese… and the Oriental population of Canada was entirely left out of Johns numbers for Canada)

2001, Canada census:

59.1% of the population report English as their mother tongue.
22.9 % report French as their mother tongue.

31% of the population report that they are proficiently bilingual at both (Canada btw, if officially a bilingual Country)

18% of the population are allophones, reporting languages such as Chinese, Punjabi, Arabic, Urdu, Tagalog and Tamil, Dravidian, a family of languages spoken by the traditional inhabitants of parts of India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan, Pashto, one of the national languages of Afghanistan; Twi, a language spoken principally by people living in southern Ghana; and Konkani, a language spoken in India.

Note: Someones going to say: "17.9% allophones in the U.S. and 18% in Canada is not that different"... but read into it. The USA census puts the French-speaking in with it's "non-english"... Canada's 18% allophone stat does not. Throw them in for shit's and giggles and you end up with 40.9% of Canadians do not speak English at home.


Okay, now let’s have a gander at religion.

2001, Canada Census
83.8% of the population identify with a specific religion

43.2% Roman Catholic
29.4% Protestant
2% Muslim
1.1% Jewish

That leaves 8.1% of the population that identify with an “other” religion
Buddhism (1%), Hinduism (1%) and Sikh (0.9%) already outnumber the percentage of Americans subscribing to “Other” religion.

2001, USA ARIS study*
81% of Americans identify with a specific religion

52% Protestant
24.5% Roman Catholic
1.3% Jewish
0.5% Muslim

That leaves 2.7% of the population who report identifying with some “other” religion.

*-Data from the 2001 ARIS study (Census cannot ask for religion in the US anymore)

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[PhillyKev 0]

I have only one question. WTF is the Tagalog language?

[Remster 24]

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WTF is the Tagalog language?

See, another proof we're more multicultural...

Every canadian knows that's one of the main languages of the Philipines....

Remster

[ltdiver 3]

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I have only one question. WTF is the Tagalog language?

Tagalog is one of the major languages spoken in the Philippines.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[goose491 0]

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I have only one question. WTF is the Tagalog language?

I think it's when a not-so-cool kid keeps fallowing you and the cool kids around nomatter how many times you tell them to go away.

Or when you want to go out and play, but you mom tells you you have to bring your little brother with you.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Kennedy 0]

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You must be joking!

I don't see too much as funny when we're talking about murder and crime. Darwin awards, yes. Murders, no.

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Let's compare (unfortunately there are stats for this) Mercedes-Benz owners and and Greyhound users. Who commits more robberies? Why?

OK, so compare it for us. You have a study? Scientific journal reports? Some 'C' student's thesis? Come on, when you say let's compare, it helps to have that comparison on hand, unless you're suggesting it as a valuable study.

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...so let's try to stay in the topic of "why more here than elsewhere" or "no more here than elsewhere" or what ever...

Really? I thought the topic was "Bowling For Columbine."

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Nuke 0]

Now I have seen it.

You guys over there scare me.

/M

[captainpooby 0]

None of it is real. Moore is a lying communist.
Do some research. Try google.
If you do a Google search for Michael Moore or BFC you will find nothing but sites that show he is a f***ing communist liar a*****e.
Its not a documentary by the greatest stretch of the imagination. Itcut and paste of some true events with his lies to show you what he wants you believe.
No thinking person who takes a few minutes to do some research could believe anything he says.

BAAAAAAAAAAA!
Sheep.

[Kramer 0]

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None of it is real. Moore is a lying communist.

I hope you don't really believe that. To say that "some of it is exaggerated, Moore is a pussy liberal" maybe has some validity, but don't call him a communist for God's sake.

I think we all need to remember that, yes, there are a couple parts of this movie that are perhaps false or not entirely true. But most of the facts the movie presents are indeed fact. Don't let a couple fallicies block your view of the big truth the movie shows us.

-Kramer

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!

[jaaska 0]

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***You must be joking!

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I don't see too much as funny when we're talking about murder and crime. Darwin awards, yes. Murders, no.

"You must be joking" -> "I can not believe we ended up here on this topic"

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***Let's compare (unfortunately there are stats for this) Mercedes-Benz owners and and Greyhound users. Who commits more robberies? Why?

OK, so compare it for us. You have a study? Scientific journal reports? Some 'C' student's thesis? Come on, when you say let's compare, it helps to have that comparison on hand, unless you're suggesting it as a valuable study.

Sarcasm intended. To take bare statistics and turn it to bare facts is...

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***...so let's try to stay in the topic of "why more here than elsewhere" or "no more here than elsewhere" or what ever...

Really? I thought the topic was "Bowling For Columbine."

I agree - the topic was (IMHO) not: gun control, or "most of the murders etc. are committed by someone else than white folk etc."

Prior to about 1986, crime stats used to separate black, white and hispanic. But for SOME reason, the powers that be decided to stop collecting data on hispanics and just call them "white". ( http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=780259#780259 )

To me, it seemed like the topic was turning towards "America is such a violent place since there is so much diversity etc.", or "If there would be only white people here, crime rate would be lower" .
There are countries in Europe and e.g. Canada, which are more or less as diverse, and still less death/murders etc...

As someone said: there are a lot of places with higher death/murder rate than US. BUT as I said before, name me one "western" society, where this rate is actually higher than in the US. To me, the point of the BFC was about that...

The contradictions in America (as wrote earlier) are somewhat weird to an outsider.

People cry out for freedom - people telling other people what is "right" and what is "wrong" (the big debate about samesex marriages and other "moral" and "ethic" topics etc.) - people telling women what they are supposed to do with their bodies (anti-abortion, the sanctity of life) - some of the same people calling out for capital punishment (the only "civilized" - what ever that means - country that still uses capital punishment is the USA. Where is that sanctity now?), just out the top of my head.

"Either with us or against us" -type of arguments are scary... Is it common over there? To many Europeans it seems like that way... And it scares the shit out them (us).

And I'm not saying these sort of things do not pop up elsewhere. Do you think they pop up more in the USA? I don't know, I've not lived in enough places to make that sort of statement. Have you ever lived abroad? (Not in a military base or similar, but really lived in some other society and get to know the culture and and the language)

Also, as I have written before, I have great respect for many things in the USA. I've been there couple of times myself and I'm looking forward to visit again soon. Some of the most friendliest people I know are from the USA. There was a European study about the attitudes Europeans had for the USA. Most of the people were able to distinct the government and the people - although they did not like too much about the current administrators, they were quite positive about Americans in general. (So not not as polar as things really seems over there - maybe I'm wrong).

Oh, and if I got it all wrong about the stats presented earlier and jumped to totally wrong conclusions - I'm sorry.

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