Bowling For Columbine

[goose491 0]

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So I wonder where those people are now, when the shoe is on the other foot, with you using Hitler and his extermination camps, as an example of why K-Mart is guilty of something for legally selling ammunition?

So then don't read the Hitler part. Segregation of duties happens everywhere. The hollocaust is simply the worst thing that has ever come from it.

I'm merely presenting that there is no one particular reason for all the violence in the States. We will never have a sigular scapegoat for it. The reason is that each and everyone who does not do everything in their power to stop it.. contributes to it. And each one that has a small minute role in continuing the violence should consider that they are partially responsible.

True Kmart is not to blame... True it's unreasonable to not let them sell guns because they didn't shoot anyone. True it's not very feasable to remove all guns from a nation, legal and non. But every little bit counts.

It's not whether or not it's legal to own, buy, carry a weapon. It's the fact that's it's normal, and becoming more and more so, to own, buy, carry a weapon that's indicative of a troubled society.


One more time, I spent the last weekend firing rounds purchased from Canadia Tire. I had a blast!
But to the group, again comes the question "Why do more Americans kill eachother each year with guns then any other similar nation?"

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

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Goose491: (Thanks, btw, for cutting out the "In Canada" part of my post that you have quoted... you know, you will become notorious for this sh*t if you keep it up John)

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Goose491: My bad, I just read back and realised I had not made it simple enough. I didnt' type "In Canada"... merely "I don't know about in the States but....."

Thank you for that public apology for falsely accusing me of altering the character of your statement, when I quoted it. Perhaps you will be more cautious in the future about such accusations. Think twice - act once. Lest yee be the one that becomes "notorious"...

But I still do think you altered the character of my statement when you quoted it. Not just that one and not just mine. I'm apologising because I said I couldn't beleive you would cut out the "In Canada"... but I haden't typed "In Canada". You did cut out the "I don't know about the States but..." part. You had to, otherwise, you couldn't have told me that drugstores still sell smokes. You knew I was speaking about Canada and you quoted me making it appear as though I was speaking of the States.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[billvon 2,400]

> And messages posted only 3 days ago still have about
> 200 "viewings", so there are still a good number of people following
> this thread, even if they aren't contributing.

Hmm. Dec 1st post (#476) showed 197 views. There have been 97 posts since then, about half of them yours. Since every time you open the thread it counts as a view, and since you can't reply without opening it, you account for at least 50 of those views. Presumably Goose counts for another 50. I probably count for 20 based on how often I check (a few times a day.) So that's 77 other views - and keep in mind that anyone who posts accounts for several of them per poster.

Not to say that the thread's not good or anything, just that seeing a lot of views might just mean that you and the person you're debating are viewing it. Those views alone would have gotten you ~100 views - and that's if you only read it when you reply.

[caress 0]

I took some time to think about the matter, and I would like to say if you are saying that laws like shannons law and things of that nature work, yes in a manner of speaking it does, there has been considerably less stupidity about firing a gun into the air because of laws like that. but if you are going to try to convince me that law enforcement will ever have any kind of control on guns and what people do with them, I think that will not happen. how can you gain control over something you never had control of in the first place? As for do I think that police are very corrupt. Absolutly. I don't know what your past is, but I do know what I have witnessed as a former criminal myself. and you will not sway me to beleive any differently, I know too much. I've seen too much. More than I care to tell anyone. So please know that you are free to think what you will. but I think I have said all I would like to say on the subject. thanks for the debate, It was the most civil one yet I think.-Caress

I've learned.... That being kind is more important than being
right.

[Jimbo 0]

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I suspect that, after 547 posts, no one is reading the thread any more (besides me, who is reading it to see if it goes south again.)

It's not just John and Goose, I'm still reading.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Kramer 0]

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I suspect that, after 547 posts, no one is reading the thread any more (besides me, who is reading it to see if it goes south again.)

It's not just John and Goose, I'm still reading.

-
Jim

As am I...I just can't keep up with you guys, so I choose to read on my own time than participate.

-Kramer

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!

[JohnRich 4]

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there is no one particular reason for all the violence in the States. We will never have a sigular scapegoat for it. The reason is that each and everyone who does not do everything in their power to stop it.. contributes to it. And each one that has a small minute role in continuing the violence should consider that they are partially responsible.

There is just one person responsible for the violence: the criminal. No one else is responsible for the criminal's own willful decision to break the law. No one forces him to do it. It's his choice, and his alone. People who legally own and sell guns have nothing to do with making criminals choose to break the law.

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True Kmart is not to blame... True it's unreasonable to not let them sell guns because they didn't shoot anyone. True it's not very feasable to remove all guns from a nation, legal and non. But every little bit counts.

You went illogical on us with that last sentence. If you admit that they aren't responsible for crime, then it is ridiculous to suggest that they should quit selling ammo because "every little bit helps". It sounds like you're saying; to heck with logic and justice, I want more gun and ammo restrictions!

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It's not whether or not it's legal to own, buy, carry a weapon. It's the fact that's it's normal, and becoming more and more so, to own, buy, carry a weapon that's indicative of a troubled society.

No, that is simply an indication of freedom, and a government which trusts its citizenry to be responsible. I wouldn't have it any other way! Since something like 38 states now have concealed handgun carry laws, the question that the citizens of the remaining 12 states should be asking their legislators is; "How come you think we are less worthy and responsible then the citizens of those other 38 states? Do you think we're morons compared to the rest of the country?"

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One more time, I spent the last weekend firing rounds purchased from Canadia Tire. I had a blast!

Well, if "every little bit helps", then why don't you give up your guns? Put your guns where your mouth is, and live up to your own recommendations. Turn your guns over to the police! Do your part to stop crime! Heck, I know it would hurt to do that, and I know that you aren't responsible for crime, but you know, every little bit helps!

[captainpooby 0]

"
No, that is simply an indication of freedom, and a government which trusts its citizenry to be responsible. I wouldn't have it any other way! Since something like 38 states now have concealed handgun carry laws, the question that the citizens of the remaining 12 states should be asking their legislators is; "How come you think we are less worthy and responsible then the citizens of those other 38 states? Do you think we're morons compared to the rest of the country?" "

You know whats funny? Where I come from I am NOT trusted to carry a weapon.
Here in Fl I AM trusted to carry one. Guess what? I didnt turn into a homicidal maniac! Imagine that!
I carry a gun all the time and have never felt like I was in the old west ready to "call someone out" at any time.
I treat the responsibilty of carrying a weapon with great respect.

"An armed society is a polite society."

[jaaska 0]

Still a gun thread .

Oh, and John, if you truly believe that "having more prisoners in America" is a good thing and it proves that "we [USA] have a relatively good police and justice system", and that "they [other countries / UK] treat their criminals with kid gloves" - well, our points of view are just so far away from each other that it's better for me to just jump out of this thread.


BUT, before that...
The only "countries" the prisoner numbers go as high as over there are some pretty nasty places with very corrupted governments and legal systems... Do you honestly think that all the rest of the democratic and free societies (and many not so free and democratic) are doing a bad job and should practice more stern criminal politics? Do you actually believe that having seven-fold (7!!!) numbers compared to an average western societies is a positive thing?



You guys have a good time with you gun thread. I honestly thought - several times - the we could talk about something else. It was nice as long as I could take it .

[JackC 0]

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Thanks for pointing that out. The readers should know that gun-o-phobia has gone so far in England that they have even outlawed many air guns, replicas and antiques.

That is not correct. Air guns, replicas and antiques are all perfectly legal in the UK. So if we examine your claim that "in the latest one-month gun turn-in amnesty, British police collected 43,000 illegal firearms...", we find that according the the Home Office web site you reference, only 6,529 illegal firearms were collected. The rest are all legal and could have been kept by their owners.

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That's what I'm saying - confisicating guns didn't make gun crime go down. In fact, it went up - dramatically.

Thereby implying that the 1997 UK firearms ban was the cause of this rise; contradicting the report which quite clearly states that there is no direct link. Surely you must agree to the possibility of other factors which could cause a rise in gun crime over and above the confiscation of guns from a mere 0.3% of the population?

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When considering new laws, it is useful to examine other places where such laws have already been tried. There may indeed be some differences in culture, etc., that mitigate the lessons to be derived

From the figures I produced earlier, less than 0.3% of the UK population had legal handguns. Whereas in the US, up to 50% of households are armed. In the US you are 5.7 time more likely to be murdered, 3 time more likely to be raped and 60 times more likely to be shot than in the UK (source)

So what differences in culture do you think might mitigate the conclusions you draw from the 1997 UK ban? Since you have consistently proved your ignorance of UK culture and law, might it be that you are not qualified to answer this and therefore should not have used the UK in your argument?

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I think that there are some gun laws which are good ones to have.

So now that we have established that some gun laws do work and that your oversimplified argument is wrong, why do you find it necessary to make deliberate and provocative statements like "gun laws don't work" when you know them to be incorrect?

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I think it is relevant. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

You think it's relevant to contradict reports written about the laws of culture of which you are unfamiliar, to use incomplete and erroneous information from which you derive flawed conclusions and to present these conclusions using misleading and inflammatory language? How strange.

[goose491 0]

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It's not whether or not it's legal to own, buy, carry a weapon. It's the fact that's it's normal, and becoming more and more so, to own, buy, carry a weapon that's indicative of a troubled society.

No, that is simply an indication of freedom, and a government which trusts its citizenry to be responsible.

[Kennedy 0]

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Oh, and John, if you truly believe that "having more prisoners in America" is a good thing and it proves that "we [USA] have a relatively good police and justice system", and that "they [other countries / UK] treat their criminals with kid gloves" - well, our points of view are just so far away from each other that it's better for me to just jump out of this thread.

Warning: spinsanity in progress.

You quoted numbers of people in prison per 100,000.(post531) John reminded you that the UK has a higher violent crime rate.(post542) So you have more crime committed per 100,000 and less people in prison per 100,000. That would seem to say that we catch, prosecute and convict criminals at a higher rate than in the UK. That in turn seems to say our criminal justice system is more effective than that of the UK.

I never heard the man say it's a good thing that we have more people in prison. He said it's a good thing we have more of our criminals in prison. (a statement with which I agree wholeheartedly)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

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Well, if "every little bit helps", then why don't you give up your guns? Put your guns where your mouth is, and live up to your own recommendations. Turn your guns over to the police! Do your part to stop crime! Heck, I know it would hurt to do that, and I know that you aren't responsible for crime, but you know, every little bit helps!

1)Beacause I don't think we have a problem with gun violence in Canada
2)Read more of my posts, I DO NOT THINK GUNS ARE THE PROBLEM.

If guns are not the problem, how does removing ammunition help? You said every little bit helps. Every little bit of what? Focusing on something that is not the problem?

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Carrying a handgun with you is indicative that you beleive you may one day need to use it.

Falls under the category I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Same reason I have latex gloves, a cpr mask, and a tire iron in my car.

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If everyones got a peice, it's an indication of a troubled society and it's an indication of paranoia.

That's your conclusion, and I disagree. So would most people here. And so did the people who founded our country. "An armed society is a civil society."

ps - I before E, except after C

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[JohnRich 4]

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Where I come from I am NOT trusted to carry a weapon. Here in Fl I AM trusted to carry one. Guess what? I didnt turn into a homicidal maniac! Imagine that!

Yep, it would be nice to have a nationwide recognition of a state's concealed handgun license (CHL). After all, the "full faith and credit clause" of the Constitution dictates that states recognize the official acts of other states. That's why a state driver's license is good nationwide. That's why marriages from any state are recognized nationwide. Yet somehow, when it comes to gun carry licenses, some states don't want to play by the Constitution...

I often drive from Texas to Florida, along Interstate 10. I cover five states along the way; Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and Florida. With my Texas CHL, or regular state laws, my gun is legal inside my car in all of those states except Alabama.

So when I cross the state line into Alabama, I suddenly transmogrify from a fine upstanding citizen, into a criminal! It's amazing what an imaginary line in the road can do to you. So I have to pull off the side of the road, unload my gun, and put it into the trunk, with the ammo stored separately from the handgun. After driving the 40 miles across Alabama, I can once again become a gun-carrying law-abiding citizen.

[JohnRich 4]

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Trust it's citizenry to be responsible with weapons! A weapon is carried for one of two reasons: an offence, or a deffence.

So what? If it's being carried for offense, it's a criminal who ignores all laws anyway. If it is for lawful defense, then that's not a problem. If you forbid law-abiding people from having guns for self-defense, then all you do is empower the criminals to rule by force - everyone becomes a helpless victim. The thrust of the concealed handgun laws sweeping the nation is to deter the criminals, by making them think that anyone they choose to attack may be armed and could shoot them in self-defense. And the statistics show that this theory works.

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Carrying a handgun with you is indicative that you beleive you may one day need to use it.

So what? Is there something wrong with self-defense? Do you have a problem with people being able to keep themselves from being attacked, injured, raped and/or killed? Just whose side are you on?

I wear a seat belt, because I recognize that despite my best efforts, I may someday be in an auto accident. I have a fire extinguisher in my home because I recognize that despite my best efforts, I may someday have a fire in the house. And I carry a gun in my car because I recognize that despite my best efforts, I may someday need it for self-defense.

There is nothing abnormal or paranoid about these behaviors. They are just simple, realistic and prudent measures to be taken to protect oneself.

Maybe you are a fatalist, who believes in accepting whatever fate befalls you, without doing anything to try and help yourself. I don't buy that lifestyle. I believe in doing what I can to help myself, and to hell with fate. And you act like that is some kind of a crime...

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So then don't come back and tell me that people don't have guns because of problems within society.

I haven't heard anyone say that. The problem is criminals. That's why we carry guns for self defense. The solution is to get rid of the criminals, not to get rid of the means of self-defense used by the law-abiding citizens. You seem to be getting things bass-ackwards.

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If everyones got a peice, it's an indication of a troubled society and it's an indication of paranoia.

The only paranoia I see is yours. Everyone doesn't have a gun, only about 40% of Americans have one. And most of those don't have carry licenses, and keep one on their person.

The vast majority of America is just as safe as Canada. Only in high-density cities is the crime rate high, so that's where guns are needed most for self-defense. Just because they recognize the dangers of where they live, and take prudent measures to protect themselves, does not mean that they are paranoid.

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Well, if "every little bit helps", then why don't you give up your guns?

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1)Beacause I don't think we have a problem with gun violence in Canada
2)Read more of my posts, I DO NOT THINK GUNS ARE THE PROBLEM.

If guns aren't the problem, then why do you wish that K-Mart didn't sell guns and ammo? How would restricting law-abiding gun owners prevent criminals from committing crimes? You are contradicting yourself, and being illogical.

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During my childhood, my mother would take things away from me if I beat up on my poor little sister. Did my G.I. Joe figures make me do it?

Bad analogy. If you were beating your sister with the G.I. Joe doll, then you deserved to have it taken from you. That's why people convicted of felonies, can never again own a gun as long as they live. However, what you seem to advocate, is that no child anywhere should be allowed to own a G.I. Joe doll, because of the misuse of the doll by just a few kids. Punishing the innocent doesn't prevent the guilty from continuing their misdeeds.

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Sometimes, my mother would catch us fighting and take both our toys away. (Even though I started it) Fair that Heidi got punished too? No. Did it teach us not to behave like little brats? Yes... If all guns were taken away, maybe it would teach everyone not to behave like little brats - with guns!

So you do believe in punishing the innocent! Wonderful. "Everyone" is not behaving like criminals: only the criminals are. When you become King, I'll be sure not to come live in your "Utopia".

I don't want my government to treat me and everyone else like criminals, when the vast majority of us are not. I want a government that treats me with respect, and trusts me to be responsible, unless I do something to prove otherwise.

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"why do you think more Americans kill eachother with guns each year than in any other similar nation?"

I've already addressed this numerous times, with at least three explanations for contributing causes for that. I'm not going to re-hash the same ground again, just because you ignored them the first time around.

For your review:
1) Culture
2) Large number of high population density cities
3) Race

[JohnRich 4]

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if you truly believe that "having more prisoners in America" is a good thing and it proves that "we [USA] have a relatively good police and justice system", and that "they [other countries / UK] treat their criminals with kid gloves" - well, our points of view are just so far away from each other that it's better for me to just jump out of this thread.

Why don't you hang around and explain why you disagree.

Sure, we've got a lot of people in prison for non-violent offenses that I would prefer serve some other kind of punishment. I already mentioned the marijuana offense in that regard.

But I also sure as heck want all the violent criminals, and repeat offenders, caught and locked up. Surely you don't prefer to have more violent people walking the streets?

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The only "countries" the prisoner numbers go as high as over there are some pretty nasty places with very corrupted governments and legal systems...

Are you suggesting that America has widespread corruption in its justice system? Are you saying that America has tens of thousands of political prisoners?

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Do you actually believe that having seven-fold (7!!!) numbers compared to an average western societies is a positive thing?

The measure of a nation's freedom and justice is not measured by the incarceration rate of its prisoners. A low prison rate could mean widespread anarchy and crime, where the police and courts are ineffective. You don't prefer that, do you?

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I honestly thought - several times - the we could talk about something else. It was nice as long as I could take it.

Well, if you're not willing to elaborate and try and convince us of your point of view, then don't be surprised if we give it little consideration.

[JohnRich 4]

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Air guns, replicas and antiques are all perfectly legal in the UK. So if we examine your claim that "in the latest one-month gun turn-in amnesty, British police collected 43,000 illegal firearms...", we find that according the the Home Office web site you reference, only 6,529 illegal firearms were collected. The rest are all legal and could have been kept by their owners.

Then why did the Home Office call them "illegal"? If they weren't illegal, then the error was on the part of the language in the Home Office report which I quoted, not from me. They're supposed to know what they're talking about.

And I seem to recall that there are extensive regulations on air guns if they are capable of shooting with a certain velocity. Likewise, replicas which can be converted into live firearms, are also on the fringe of the law.

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That's what I'm saying - confisicating guns didn't make gun crime go down. In fact, it went up - dramatically.

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Thereby implying that the 1997 UK firearms ban was the cause of this rise; contradicting the report which quite clearly states that there is no direct link.

I didn't imply that correlation equals causation - you came up with that on your own. Since I didn't say it, I didn't contradict the report. What it does show, however, is that the gun ban was ineffective at reducing gun crime.

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Surely you must agree to the possibility of other factors which could cause a rise in gun crime

Sure. Things like culture. The same kind of things that cause a high gun crime rate in America. It surely isn't the mere presence of guns that does it.

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why do you find it necessary to make deliberate and provocative statements like "gun laws don't work" when you know them to be incorrect?

You're making your own deliberately false statement there. I've never said that anything is 100%, and in fact said that I agree with some gun laws. How about if we change it to "Most gun laws don't work." Would you agree with that statement?

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You think it's relevant to contradict reports written about the laws of culture of which you are unfamiliar, to use incomplete and erroneous information from which you derive flawed conclusions and to present these conclusions using misleading and inflammatory language?

Like I said: We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm comfortable that I've stated my views, and I'm willing to let the readers decide for themselves whom they wish to believe.

[Kennedy 0]

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During my childhood, my mother would take things away from me if I beat up on my poor little sister. Did my G.I. Joe figures make me do it?

Sometimes, my mother would catch us fighting and take both our toys away. (Even though I started it) Fair that Heidi got punished too? No. Did it teach us not to behave like little brats? Yes.

You were a child then. Do you want your government to treat all citizens like children?

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Again, I've expressed that I don't beleive taking guns away from the people is the solutiong to gun crime... However, If all guns were taken away, maybe it would teach everyone not to behave like little brats - with guns!

Right, so without guns, everything is fair and everyone is wonderful? There's an old saying: "God created man, Mr. Colt made us equal." Think about it.

Again, why should everyone loose their guns because some decide to commit crimes? What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[goose491 0]

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During my childhood, my mother would take things away from me if I beat up on my poor little sister. Did my G.I. Joe figures make me do it?

Sometimes, my mother would catch us fighting and take both our toys away. (Even though I started it) Fair that Heidi got punished too? No. Did it teach us not to behave like little brats? Yes.

You were a child then. Do you want your government to treat all citizens like children?

Just for as long as you continue to act like 'em

I'm out for the weekend.. and done with this thread. Lock it up when your done lol


Safe, great weekend to all.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[captainpooby 0]

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In Reply To
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If everyones got a peice, it's an indication of a troubled society and it's an indication of paranoia.

You think I'm paranoid because I carry a gun? What do I have to be paranoid about? I have a gun.
Im not paranoid about having a malfunction either because I have a reserve. I have literally thousands of jumps where it was just excess baggage but the few tims I needed it....I REALLY needed it.

I believe one of the founders said: "An armed society is a polite society."

[elpeludo 0]

Enough is enough!! I love my weapon and I love my gun; 1 is for shooting, the other for fun !! So we live in a violent world? It is what you and I make of it....
screw all you liberal bleeding harts out there and if you want......go live somewhere else!!! I love your
opinion about this issue but,......the film really SUCKED!!!! better off to rent or buy a PORNO!!!!
(F#%&*@!) more and bitch less ! Just might take up the offer on a bubble bath??

[caress 0]

Sorry the movie sucked so badI don't have control over what hollywood does. easy Elpeludo, when I first posted here some goose person gave me crap for talking out of context. I think I need to apologize to him, I think I really pissed him off. Anyway, try to be respectful of others opinions peludo, we are a family on this web site remember?-Caress- p.s I love you too bud! As for that bubble bath you wanted so when can we expect you baby?

I've learned.... That being kind is more important than being
right.