CanuckInUSA 0 #326 November 24, 2003 QuoteNot sure...but, it's not because of legal gun ownership. Well I don't think the problem is legal gun ownership as well. But I do question the rational of when people choose to use their guns. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n2skdvn 0 #327 November 24, 2003 this thread is'nt dead yetif my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN my site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #328 November 24, 2003 I and the vast majority of legal owners would use them to protect ourselves from being killed. In fact that's the only time I legally can. And that really has nothing to do with your initial question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #329 November 24, 2003 >I and the vast majority of legal owners would use them to protect > ourselves from being killed. At least one other gun user on this board has used his to discourage a possible robbery. I think that's an inevitable result of carrying a gun - it is a tool that can be used in many situations other than protecting yourself from death, and so it often is. It also _creates_ situations that put you at risk for death (i.e. if someone steals your wallet they can't kill you with it) and so can create the problem it is intended to prevent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #330 November 24, 2003 Did he believe he was in danger of being hurt or did he know for a fact that they were unarmed? How does an unarmed person rob you? How do you know they won't hurt or kill you as well? And there are states, PA is not one, though, where it is legal to use your gun to prevent the commision of, or flight from, a felony. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #331 November 24, 2003 QuoteI and the vast majority of legal owners would use them to protect ourselves from being killed. And this plays into a point which Mr Moore discussed in this flic. And that is the fear many Americans have towards their fellow citizens. Regardless of whether you believe him or not that the media and popular culture have painted the evil black man as the villain. The fact remains that in most parts of the country the people of the inner city are NOT breaking into homes. If anyone is breaking into homes, it is suburbian teenagers, breaking into homes while people are off at work in order to fund their habits. Why? Likely because they are bored. I mean mom and pop are off at work neglecting their kids because both parents must work to pay for the monster home in order to keep up with the Jones'es. But I digress ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #332 November 24, 2003 Well, with stronger punishments for crimes and three strikes rules, in many cases simple robberies have become homocides due to witness potential. Personally, I'd like the deck to be stacked as much in my favor as possible. There are a lot of nutbags out there who would kill ya just as soon as take your bag of fritos. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #333 November 24, 2003 >Did he believe he was in danger of being hurt or did he know for a >fact that they were unarmed? The original post: ------------------------------------ Went to a drive through ATM on the way to go play some pool, although nobody was around the ATM in the general area (that I could see), something pinged off my threat meter. So I took my weapon from where I normally carry it, chambered a round and set it on my leg while I did my transaction. That's perfect legal, since it was dark, the weapon was not visable, thus concealed. Anyways I'm just putting my ATM card in when someone actually knocks on my passenger side window (for those that don't know, I drive a large pickup, so the guy was looking straight into my cab, while standing up straight). I looked at him and he said something along the lines of "I ran out of gas, need gas money" etc. We're 300ft from a gas station that was very busy, if he was out of gas, he would be there asking them. So I told him he was trying to scam me and to fuck off. (Remember, its still dark in my cab). At this point he gets VERY irrate, yelling and screaming at me through the slightly open window and hitting on the window. All the while I'm trying to finish up the ATM transaction and just drive off. This guy's acting more and more violent, so I flip on my cab light and he notices whats in my right hand. This perp's eyes got HUGE and he took off fast enough to win medals. Oh, the guy was around 30 years old, medium build...it wasn't some punk kid. I couldn't just drive off, this perp would have my ATM card, as well as an open transaction in the ATM for him to check my balance and get basically every penny I have. ------------------------------------------------ In the above case, a gun owner brandished a gun to protect his bank account. As he was in a vehicle he was not in danger of being injured (he was prepared to drive off.) >How does an unarmed person rob you? By, say, putting their arm around your throat and reaching for your wallet. Happened to me in Times Square a while back. >How do you know they won't hurt or kill you as well? You don't. But bands of muggers in Times Square do not generally injure or kill people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #334 November 24, 2003 >Well, with stronger punishments for crimes and three strikes rules, in > many cases simple robberies have become homocides due to > witness potential. I think that is an _extremely_ poor argument both in favor of guns and in favor of lessening punishments for crimes. Tailoring laws so the criminals are not as worried they will be caught? Carrying a gun so a mugging will not turn into a fatality? If there _is_ a successful mugging, and the criminal gets your gun instead of your wallet, the odds of your gun being used for a shooting go way up - but it won't be the criminal that gets shot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #335 November 24, 2003 Frankly, I believe the criminal code is just about where it should be. It is somewhat of a deterrent, but obviously, not always. What may be an "extremely poor argument" to you just may save my life someday, so I appreciate your opinion, but it does not affect mine. Actually, on the subject of "Bowling for Columbine," I liked Moore's other documentary "Canadian Bacon." It was quite thought provoking. "Like maple syrup, Canada's evil oozes over the United States." mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #336 November 24, 2003 QuoteQuoteI and the vast majority of legal owners would use them to protect ourselves from being killed. And this plays into a point which Mr Moore discussed in this flic. And that is the fear many Americans have towards their fellow citizens. Regardless of whether you believe him or not that the media and popular culture have painted the evil black man as the villain. The fact remains that in most parts of the country the people of the inner city are NOT breaking into homes. If anyone is breaking into homes, it is suburbian teenagers, breaking into homes while people are off at work in order to fund their habits. Why? Likely because they are bored. I mean mom and pop are off at work neglecting their kids because both parents must work to pay for the monster home in order to keep up with the Jones'es. But I digress ... I don't need media portrayal. I've witnessed robberies, I've been the attempted victim of muggings twice. Several women within 2 blocks of my house have been raped, one of them killed. One of my friends was robbed at gunpoint and tried to run. He was chased down and pistol whipped (I'm sure because the gun didn't work). A guy I know is in jail for shooting at Allan Iverson over a dispute about basketball. Someone was stabbed outside my house. Crack dealers and transvestite prostitutes walk past my front door at night. One of the transvestite prostitutes stabbed someone in the alley behind my house a few weeks ago. I was caught in the middle of a full scale riot on Fat Tuesday 2 blocks from my house. No media portrayal there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #337 November 24, 2003 wow, just out of curiosity, how far off South St. do you live? mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #339 November 24, 2003 Quote>How do you know they won't hurt or kill you as well? You don't. But bands of muggers in Times Square do not generally injure or kill people. And your parachute doesn't generally malfunction, but you still have a reserve to save your life just in case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #340 November 24, 2003 Figured as much... mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #341 November 24, 2003 QuoteAmericans kill Americans with guns at an astronomically high number than any other modern society. America is not #1, as you imply. For example, Russia, South Africa and Colombia are much higher, to name just a few of the big countries. But we've already covered this ground... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #342 November 24, 2003 QuoteDid he believe he was in danger of being hurt or did he know for a fact that they were unarmed? How does an unarmed person rob you? How do you know they won't hurt or kill you as well? Exactly. The anti-gun folks would prefer that we all put ourselves at the mercy of criminals, who have no compunction about seriously hurting us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,121 #343 November 24, 2003 QuoteAmerica is not #1, as you imply. For example, Russia, South Africa and Colombia are much higher, to name just a few of the big countries. Those societies are in quite a bit of disarray, I don't think that is a really fair comparison. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #344 November 24, 2003 Keep telling yourself that America does not have a problem. And don't forget to tell the families of one of the 10000+ people which are murdered each and every year at the hands of a gun that there is no problem. Oh and while you're at it, tell the families of the countless children who die each year because their irresponsible parents left a loaded gun lying around (of course it's there to kill that evil black man who preys upon society). Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #345 November 24, 2003 QuoteIn the above case, a gun owner brandished a gun to protect his bank account. As he was in a vehicle he was not in danger of being injured (he was prepared to drive off.) The guy was acting irrationally and banging on his window - I call that a threat. You make the common mistake of assuming that he had no intent to hurt the person, but you don't know that. It was more than just protecting his bank account, it was also personal protection. They guy could have punched out the window and assaulted the driver. The display of a gun to make the guy leave was perfectly acceptable under the law in those circumstances. QuoteHow do you know they won't hurt or kill you as well? QuoteYou don't. But bands of muggers in Times Square do not generally injure or kill people. That's right - you don't know. So why should we put our life in the hands of a criminal? Do you want to trust them with your life? Not me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #346 November 24, 2003 QuoteIf there _is_ a successful mugging, and the criminal gets your gun instead of your wallet, the odds of your gun being used for a shooting go way up - but it won't be the criminal that gets shot. If I have a gun, I don't have to use it. I can choose to throw my wallet down on the ground, and if the robber is smart, he'll pick it up and depart. However, if he decides to attack because he's not happy with just the wallet, then the gun is still an option to preserve life and limb. And for that, a gun is the best means of doing so: Rates of Injury by Victim's Method of Protection: ----------------------------------------- Robbery Assault Physical force .................................... 51% 52% Tried to get help or frighten attacker .... 49% 40% Knife ................................................ 40% 30% Non-violent resistance/evasion ............ 35% 26% Threatened or reasoned with attacker .. 31% 25% Other measures ................................ 27% 21% No self protection .............................. 25% 27% Other weapon ................................... 22% 25% Gun ................................................. 17% 12% From: Kleck G, "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America", Table 4.4. Source: Analysis of incident files of 1979-1985 National Crime Survey public use computer tapes (ICPSR,1987b). Note: Percentages do not total to 100% since any single criminal incident can involve several different types of self-protection methods. Sorry about the editting of the columnar data, but this forum compresses all multiple spaces, so it doesn't look pretty. But you can understand it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #347 November 24, 2003 QuoteIf there _is_ a successful mugging, and the criminal gets your gun instead of your wallet, the odds of your gun being used for a shooting go way up - but it won't be the criminal that gets shot. U.S. Department of Justice, Crime Data Brief Bureau of Justice Statistics, April 1994, NCJ-147003 GUNS AND CRIME > On average (1987-1992), 62,200 victims of violent crime per year defended themselves with firearms. This is 1% of all violent crime victims. Another 20,300 used a firearm to defend their property during theft or burglary. > Only one-fifth of victims defending themselves with firearms were injured in the encounter, compared with one-half of victims defending themselves with other weapons, or with no weapon, which were injured. > In most cases, victims who defended themselves with firearms were confronted by offenders who were either unarmed, or armed with weapons other than a firearm. > 75% of victims who used firearms for self-defense did so during a crime of violence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #348 November 24, 2003 QuoteKeep telling yourself that America does not have a problem. And don't forget to tell the families of one of the 10000+ people which are murdered each and every year at the hands of a gun that there is no problem. Tell the 6000 plus murdered without a gun. QuoteOh and while you're at it, tell the families of the countless children who die each year because their irresponsible parents left a loaded gun lying around It's not countless (nice bit of hype, though)...I'm sure you can find some stats. Let me know when you do so that I can show you how many kids die because aspirin isn't properly locked up, or in car seats, or in swimming pools. Everything is a danger, a gun is no more dangerous than the care taken by its owner. So who is it trying to scare the public with irrational fears? You may not make me fear the "evil black man" but you're trying to make me fear the "evil gun owner". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #349 November 24, 2003 Quotethe media and popular culture have painted the evil black man as the villain. The fact remains that in most parts of the country the people of the inner city are NOT breaking into homes. "An estimated 717,700 persons were arrested for violent crimes in 1997... 57 percent were white" - FBI, Uniform Crime Report, 1997, Section II - Crime Index Offenses Reported, "Violent Crime", Page 12. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/97cius.htm That means that 43% of violent crime arrestees were black. Yet blacks comprise just 13% of the population. If they committed violent crime at the same rate as whites, their percentage would be equal to their proportion of the population. But they don't; blacks are arrested for violent crime more than three times more often than their proportionate share of the population. Now, please don't call me a racist for pointing to FBI statistics which are factual. I don't believe that skin color makes one more likely to commit violent crime. However, things like poverty does. Blacks may suffer from poverty at a higher rate than whites - I don't know. However, and for whatever reasons, the perception of blacks being more likely to commit crime than whites, is true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #350 November 24, 2003 QuoteThose societies are in quite a bit of disarray, I don't think that is a really fair comparison. Of course not, nothing is ever a "fair comparison" when it shows guns more favorably. However, all kinds of unfair comparisons can be put forth to show guns negatively, and they are all perfectly legitimate! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
